IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #50

[AFTM]

Can you reason why someone would "plan" a murder in that location?

Premeditation is a forethought which is a plan. Intent is forethought... It can happen in minutes before crime. Does not have to constitute detailed planning..


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[Bemused]

Yes, it's loud and clear, and the answer is yes. The FBI was on the scene right away, and the family was searching in the right park right away. They were last seen just before noon, and last seen shortly before 1PM. Their bikes were found near the 1PM sighting, but they were gone. In less than 2 hours they were reported missing and it was taken very seriously right away.

There is no information about one or more abductors. They were found 20 miles from where they disappeared in an area very similar to where the Indiana girls were found.

In July 2015 the interim police chief said this case was not cold. Have they officially called it cold since then? LE may very well know who but can't prove it yet.

Unsolved doesn't mean cold.

I'd love to hear Joe Kenda's thoughts on both cases.

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

I think(IIRC) early on they suspected the girls may have gone into the lake and drowned. They even drained the lake at some point. The narrative seemed to go back and forth between abduction and drowning. On the abduction side, there was a fair amount of speculation that they had been taken due to one girl's father's plea agreement(which was withdrawn the day before(?) the girls went missing. Some folks seemed to think that something had been set in motion that couldn't be stopped(?).If you go through any of the news reports from early on, there seems to have been a lot of understandable confusion regarding whether the girls drowned or were abducted.

The abandoned bikes probably triggered the feds getting involved. It sounds like they were possibly lured into a vehicle, particularly given where they were found. All it takes is one tip to police. Maybe someone brags or maybe someone knows who and finally reports it. Maybe the killer is already in prison for something else. I don't think a normally law abiding citizen's first crime is murdering two children and then back to being a normal, law abiding citizen. IMO

 

[Puggle]

Premeditation is a forethought which is a plan. Intent is forethought... It can happen in minutes before crime. Does not have to constitute detailed planning..


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Something that happens in minutes before an event....although by some legal jargon may constitute as planned.......for us mere mortals....if a thought happens just as some dude is on the bridge and see's some girls and decides...hey...I might like to kill these girls... for most.. that would be assumed as unplanned.

My point, you may have missed..... this doesn't appear to be a well thought out pre planned event....... the girls bodies were found relatively close to where they were last known to be seen....

They weren't transported, they weren't by all means exceptionally well hid....

Common sense....yes...no... would indicate a blitz attack on these girls..

Nah ...... from where I'm breathing air ....that's not planned...

 

[Shiressleuth]

Someone asked yesterday when was the last double homicide or murder in Delphi. I don't now remember who asked but I do remember the statistics quoted by another poster and it is 20 years since they have had a murder in Delphi. And there has never been a double murder, let alone a double murder of young teens IIRC.

 

[MistyWaters]

I have quoted my posts and otto's answers to make my point clearer. Which was that perhaps he intended to get them to a car in the cemetery, heard someone on the bridge so killed them and left straightaway instead. An interrupted plan perhaps. MOO.

Eta. Misty, just read your post and we are thinking along similar lines. I have been waiting for the thread to open to repost mine .

Thanks! You're making my exact point -- the crime scene is evidence of what actually occurred but we have no way of knowing if it exactly reflects the culprit/s original intentions.


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[AmateurAnalyst73]

Seclusion. Low traffic. Several routes of escape, with good cover. Near water for clean-up/evidence disposal. Bridge slows targets and creates limited exit strategies for them at SE end. Actually spending weeks here rehashing the details of this case, it actually seems like a near perfect place for a predator, especially considering the trail to the cemetery.

Can you reason why someone would "plan" a murder in that location?

 

[Puggle]

It would be extremely rare for an attacker to take on two individuals. .....unless there were more than one perpetrators. ....

 

[Shiressleuth]

Something that happens in minutes before an event....although by some legal jargon may constitute as planned.......for us mere mortals....if a thought happens just as some dude is on the bridge and see's some girls and decides...hey...I might like to kill these girls... for most.. that would be assumed as unplanned.

My point, you may have missed..... this doesn't appear to be a well thought out pre planned event....... the girls bodies were found relatively close to where they were last known to be seen....

They weren't transported, they weren't by all means exceptionally well hid....

Common sense....yes...no... would indicate a blitz attack on these girls..

Nah ...... from where I'm breathing air ....that's not planned...

In the eyes of the law that would be planned therefore murder not manslaugter. Whether planned 5 minutes or 5 months beforehand , it is still murder. If one girl was accidentally knocked off the bridge and then the second killed to keep her quiet, there would perhaps be less planning but second event would still be murder AFAICS. I definitely cannot see two accidental deaths anyway.

 

[Cryptic]

Well, they also believe that the girls were likely targeted, and I am not sure there is much evidence of this, but, wth do I know?

I agree with you, neither of the two general possibilities can be excluded; targeted (either one or both) or random encounter with a pre disposed perpetrator trawling a familiar area for the "right" circumstances.

One thing that I think detracts from the targeted possibility is that as the victims were not engaged in high risk behavior, the general motive would be targeting either by association or targeting as a means to harm another party.

Such targeting would also seem to yield a pretty small pool of potential suspects. This, coupled with the photographs would seem to have led to an arrest. The only way to enlarge the suspect pool would be that if the perpetrator was "contracted" either formally or informally to carry out the crime and is not from the local area and would not be seen as part of the suspect pool.

 

[kirkassoc]

In a much earlier thread, i theorized that if BG had, indeed, walked the entire length of the bridge, he could have done it in under 4 minutes. The bridge is 850 or so feet long. Average man's gait is, what, three and a half feet or thereabouts? If BG was in a hurry, he could have made it in well under 4 minutes.



The latest information regarding drop off indicates they were at the trail head around 1:45-ish. According to members here, cell service is pretty good in the park and right around there (several threads back). So 20-30 minutes after they were dropped off is when the photo made it to SC.

Parking area to bridge=6-7 minutes, straight walk no stopping.

Libby and Abby take their time getting across the bridge, most folks would do the same, including myself as it appears to be a beautiful area. Maybe 10-20 minutes.

Somewhere between 2:07 and roughly 2:30 BG was on the bridge, that we do know.

If Libby's phone was "pinging" well after the murders, that indicates to me there's decent or good cell coverage at the park/bridge.

If this turns out to be a fact (highlighted), then the whole abduction, murder, etc., would be audio taped, at least. No wonder LE seemed so frazzled at the PC. Can you imagine!

 

[Ms Suzanne]

This was another sexual attack on April 3rd http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2017/04/03/woman-attacked-in-portable-toilet-at-indiana-park/

 

[Bemused]

Interesting research articles on who kills children.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-raj-persaud/child-protection_b_1950749.html

http://www.atg.wa.gov/child-abduction-murder-research

 

[Puggle]

Seclusion. Low traffic. Several routes of escape, with good cover. Near water for clean-up/evidence disposal. Bridge slows targets and creates limited exit strategies for them at SE end. Actually spending weeks here rehashing the details of this case, it actually seems like a near perfect place for a predator, especially considering the trail to the cemetery.

Kinda sounds like someone who knows that area specifically doesn't it?

 

[kirkassoc]

Can you reason why someone would "plan" a murder in that location?

Possibly familiar with the area but not associated.

 

[MistyWaters]

It would be extremely rare for an attacker to take on two individuals. .....unless there were more than one perpetrators. ....

The only unlikely scenario that I can think of is if the attacker was unknown (or disguised) and for unknown reasons was tasked with abducting only one of the two, presuming the other would run off. Instead the girls defended themselves together.

If this were true, considering the fact that children and teens are almost always in a group or in a public place, that'd increase the odds that stalking took place and this location wasn't random.



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[Puggle]

In the eyes of the law that would be planned therefore murder not manslaugter. Whether planned 5 minutes or 5 months beforehand , it is still murder. If one girl was accidentally knocked off the bridge and then the second killed to keep her quiet, there would perhaps be less planning but second event would still be murder AFAICS. I definitely cannot see two accidental deaths anyway.

I agree.....hence my reply.

Not two accidental death's. .......this happened.....and the person responsible in my opinion didn't cross that bridge planning this to happen......it did...because something triggered in this individual to cause him to react. ........someone in the community of Delphi.....holds the clue....

 

[Ms Suzanne]

http://newscdn.newsrep.net/h5/nrsha...eclared_lan=en_US&pubaccount=ocms_0&showall=1

 

[Jethro4WS]

Someone asked yesterday when was the last double homicide or murder in Delphi. I don't now remember who asked but I do remember the statistics quoted by another poster and it is 20 years since they have had a murder in Delphi. And there has never been a double murder, let alone a double murder of young teens IIRC.

There was a double homicide in Delphi in the early/mid 1990's. Because of who it was that was murdered and who was involved in that crime you should at least take a look into it. As far as I know though, those two things can't be discussed on the threads since WS is victim friendly.

 

[BoggLed in Ohio]

In July 2015 the interim police chief said this case was not cold. Have they officially called it cold since then? LE may very well know who but can't prove it yet.

Unsolved doesn't mean cold.

I'd love to hear Joe Kenda's thoughts on both cases.

Re Iowa... as I was reading this article it mentions six months after their abduction three separate Witnesses came forward with what they thought was not probably related to the case or they thought someone else had already mentioned seeing this vehicle ,and no one had reported it until then !! and there could be the whole key right there... even today , as many families gather for Easter dinners looking through old photo family albums . They might see an old white SUV in the background of a photo and say...hmm Uncle Bobby Joe used to drive one like that back when lived in the midwest... you just never know when a little tip could end up cracking a Cold Case

https://iowacoldcases.org/case-summaries/lyric-cook-and-elizabeth-collins/