IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #50

[GangaMa]

Maybe they can use this snapshot DNA profiling on Liberty German and Abigails Williams double murder.Has anyone suggested this to LE?https://snapshot.parabon-nanolabs.com/

This was mentioned very early on in the discussion. The cost was mentioned as about $6K. So I'm sure that the FBI, at least, is aware of this service. I have been banging the drum on this use of the perp's DNA for a while now. The list of things that can be known about the DNA source is amazing, with no need for a "match" against any other entry in anyone's database. All of that information can be had from (IMO) within the FBI labs, as well as from public services, such as 23andme.com. It takes almost no time to get the results.
Like many aspects of technology in LE, it's a race between the forces of good (advances in DNA chip sets) and the forces of evil (perps trying to erase any residual DNA from the crime).
I would very much like to see LE release the killer's picture using the paragon technology.

 

[Eileen730]

[bbm] just putting this here for those who are sure to ask

https://www.google.ca/#q=+bolshy

lol I don't think that's the word.

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

I'm more inclined to worry that they may know(or be fairly certain) who, but not have enough evidence to charge/convict. Even with the video, unless there is DNA or some pretty substantial physical evidence, it would be difficult. that's why I have been almost hoping that RL is the guy, because if he's not, and it's not some local creep/RSO, then it starts getting more difficult for everyone involved.

I'm inclined to believe they are close or at least have a strong idea who committed this, I'm hopeful on an average tuesday morn in the very near future I'll awaken to my feed buzzing as to an arrest.

The other half of my mind is of the firm belief they have a ton of evidence but not the faintest notion who BG is.....i'm conflicted but hopeful

 

[asyousay]

[bbm] just putting this here for those who are sure to ask

https://www.google.ca/#q=+bolshy

I apologize as I forget some words I use are so British.

 

[NightOwl77]

Thanks for this. I'll comment on 1, 2, 4 and 5.

1) Short time window to commit crime as you stated.

I think the crime started shortly after 2:30pm and the killer was gone by 3:30pm or so. I think he either just left or he heard persons coming along the bridge/talking and made a hasty exit. (IMO)

2) Three people being on the bridge right after the girls were there who say they saw and heard nothing.

See above. One woman was noted in an article and said she didn’t see the girls and went across the bridge and back. She mentioned another couple on the bridge when she got there but we don’t know if the other couple went all the way to the SE end of the bridge or if they saw/heard anything. IMO I don’t think they saw/heard anything.
http://heavy.com/news/2017/02/liber...ssing-snapchat-facebook-photos-family-bridge/

4) The clothes being found in the stream (has this been reported or is it just rumor? and if it was reported somewhere, were the clothes found upstream or downstream from where the girls were?)

It was reported by a reporter/photographer who was near the scene on Feb 14. He said that from 75 yards away he could see girl’s clothing in the creek east of the bridge and knew the girls were found nearby. There is also a mention of clothing in transcription on scanner thread. Whether these are definitively connected to the crime we don’t know.
https://www.facebook.com/jkyle.keener/media_set?set=a.10209763319577780.1073741969.1174987605&type=3

5) The clean crime scene (again has then been reported or is it just rumor?)

IMO, I think this has been misinterpreted. I don't think anything has been stated about what the crime scene looked like on Tues, Feb 14. Investigators were there for ~2 ½ days before they released the area back to RL. During a CNN interview, the commentator asked RL what he saw when he went out there (which he said was Thurs AM-Feb 16). She asked him whether he saw any blood, did he see a gruesome scene? He answered that there was not much to see other than crime scene tape and the area was still very pristine. IMO yes it was pristine because the investigators cleaned up before they left and released the property back to him. We’ve now seen the video of the crime scene area ourselves taken on Feb 16 and I agree, it was pristine on Feb 16.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1702/20/ptab.01.html
http://www.gettyimages.com/license/645276720

Want to make an actual post to say Thanks so much! I really appreciate your use of sources and comments in general!

 

[Bemused]

I'm more inclined to worry that they may know(or be fairly certain) who, but not have enough evidence to charge/convict. Even with the video, unless there is DNA or some pretty substantial physical evidence, it would be difficult. that's why I have been almost hoping that RL is the guy, because if he's not, and it's not some local creep/RSO, then it starts getting more difficult for everyone involved.

Interesting how people think. My spidey sense says everything I know so far points to one person but I keep hoping it's a SK or drifter.

 

[Eileen730]

Jmo
That man on the bridge is way younger than RL.

 

[richoldguyy]

Do you have a link where LE said the CS was pristine? That was the property owner describing his land IIRC wasn't it?

I just read the interview, and you are right. It was the landowner only saying it was pristine. As often as I heard folks saying that, I figured it must come from an official. So- never mind...

 

[Matlacha]

Someone asked a few pages ago about Wilson's Cave. Can't find any photos, so I suspect it isn't a large cave. In a document relating to the Deer Creek Valley Historic District (https://npgallery.nps.gov/pdfhost/docs/NRHP/Text/02001557.pdf) it's said to be near Wilson's Bridge, which is east of RL's property. However, in a description of RL's property, the document says that the property's creekside location was important to its second owner (1800's) because he could wash and water his horses on Deer Creek near Wilson's Cave. Elsewhere, it's stated that Wilson's cave is located "west of Wilson's Bridge along the creek between the High Bridge and the Slate Bluffs."

 

[AmateurAnalyst73]

With all the scattered extremely shallow spots these mid-western creeks tend to have, I would think the only possible watercraft that might be able to navigate the area would be a small, lightweight kayak. In this part of the country(intermountain west) it's not unusual to see hikers with them once in awhile. They seem to be making them from lighter plastics and composites these days, which makes them relatively portable, assuming a user would need to pick it up out of the water once in awhile in an area like Deer Creek.

In terms of sound, someone posted a video near the CS with the creek seemingly fairly noisy. Also, trees and ground cover(leaves, etc) do break up sound pretty effectively, and gunshots are not uncommon in rural Indiana, especially when the weather is nice. Folks shoot targets, clay pigeons, etc, so a couple gunshots, I suspect, would go pretty well unnoticed in the area.

good questions..

Re: #2...Is that for absolute CERTAIN these people were ON the bridge AFTER the crime? Did they take pictures that document the exact time, or did they guestimate by memory about what time they were there? And did they CROSS the bridge all the way, halfway, part way or what?

#Sound traveling.... would the water be loud enough to swallow up the sounds of screaming? IDK... also it would partly rely upon the exact atmospheric conditions at the time (including humidity levels/dew points, wind direction and speed all play factors in sound) plus the trees ,, despite still being bare, can act like sound barriers. But my guess is no one heard them due to a combination of at least some of those above mentioned factors and along with the possible (even likelihood ? that they were gagged/knocked unconscious or intimidated by fear/weapon/psychological warfare by the perp to remain silent) Now as for someone on the bridge not seeing them down the hill below... well im not surprised by that, I saw the many different videos and there are lots of blind spots especially by the creek bed area where steep drop offs of land are.
PS...I did also wonder about the *(unlikely?) possibility of a small canoe or raft even being used by the perp...IDK...I suppose its certainly a possibility..what does everyone else think about this as a possible mode of escaping the scene?

#4 we cant comment on the garments

#5..the "clean crime scene".... I saw the video taken from within the taped in area by the creek...which gave me the creeps really really bad.... but I do admit to me it looked fairly unremarkable to me..I was expecting to at least see large areas of leaf-free sections or something... I dont know what to make of that... unless nature had already began to do it's thing and the wind blew leaves and such back all over...

#12... I have not heard about a cave, would like to know also. What I do wonder about is the cemetery and it's role in all this. Id also like to know if it is one that has underground tunnels like some do.


and another Q i wanted to ask that is not on your list...is do you all agree it could be a conceal carry jacket he is wearing that member (Daeee?) brought up? That would be pretty significant to be able to confirm that and possibly trace if a thrift shop/army surplus/second hand shop/garage sale etc sold one that may remember BG if only vaguely ....

That is all I can really reply to for now..

 

[asyousay]

Jmo
That man on the bridge is way younger than RL.

That's my take on it as well , I don't see a nearly 80 year old in that photo.

 

[Sir WiggleBottom III]

Why do you think it was dark when they were left on the creek bank? Do you not think they walked across the creek to the bank in daylight? Where do you think they were between 02.30 and darkness (around 6p.m.).

ETA. We should probably all try to think about this if we don't think they were murdered there soon after 2.30 p.m. The time of death must be crucial to the case IMO.

I'm not of the mind they were killed quickly at all.

 

[Bemused]

Someone asked a few pages ago about Wilson's Cave. Can't find any photos, so I suspect it isn't a large cave. In a document relating to the Deer Creek Valley Historic District (https://npgallery.nps.gov/pdfhost/docs/NRHP/Text/02001557.pdf) it's said to be near Wilson's Bridge, which is east of RL's property. However, in a description of RL's property, the document says that the property's creekside location was important to its second owner (1800's) because he could wash and water his horses on Deer Creek near Wilson's Cave. Elsewhere, it's stated that Wilson's cave is located "west of Wilson's Bridge along the creek between the High Bridge and the Slate Bluffs."

Go to:

Images.google.com

put this search string in the box: wilson's cave delphi indiana

 

[GangaMa]

RSBM

Some of the items I have no knowledge or comments to make but can address the following with my opinions:

1 This hasn't been firmly established. We do not know time of death or even whether they were kidnapped by vehicle from under the bridge immediately and brought back later.

2. These three witnesses should be looked at extremely closely as being the closest in time to the 02.07 and 0230 events AFAWK

3. I have already mentioned the possibility of a boat. But nobody has thought that an option. I don't know why. After all, they brought a dive boat ( don't think it was needed in the end) to the crime scene so the creek must be thought to be navigable.

5. Was the crime scene clean? Could this mean the girls were taken elsewhere, then returned ? Otherwise, I do not know why they weren't found sooner. Number 1 is also relevant here and LE will know the answer to this.

Your points are very well thought out. Sorry I have no valid input on the rest and I think you have the scanner response already.

AJMO

About the boat idea :
1) that would mean he's local, IMO.
2) He would have had to really plan in advance to get his boat up close to the bridge, off a trailer of some sort, and placed strategically close to the area that was "down the hill".
3) Have to assume that he didn't actually try to haul the girls' bodies into the boat for whatever reason - it's hard enough to help someone in the water onto a boat that is floating.
4) He would have to get the boat back to a place where he could get it back onto a trailer or on top of a pickup. getting boat off/on a trailer is a very noticeable activity. It's usually hard work and noisy. Someone would have noticed.
All MOO.

 

[Bemused]

I'm not of the mind they were killed quickly at all.

They were murdered on February 13 (petition to seal autopsy) after 2-2:30 PM, the last time we know they were alive. They were there all night, in the dark, until discovery a little after noon on 2/14. I'm just not understanding why people are quibbling about the dark. It's a fact they were missing overnight.

I disagree. I think they were murdered quickly after the encounter and the murderer was long gone by 3:30 or so. I know where I think he went and why, but JMO.

 

[Shiressleuth]

again, it's important to understand "pristine" it doesnt mean "clean" it means undisturbed, The same condition as it was at the time of the crime. No one had tracked through or disturbed the original crime scene.

Do you have a link where LE said the CS was pristine? That was the property owner describing his land IIRC wasn't it?

Eta.. please ignore - this post is a dupe. Don't know why that happened.

 

[Sir WiggleBottom III]

They were murdered on February 13 (petition to seal autopsy) after 2-2:30 PM, the last time we know they were alive. They were there all night, in the dark, until discovery a little after noon on 2/14. I'm just not understanding why people are quibbling about the dark. It's a fact they were missing overnight.

I disagree. I think they were murdered quickly after the encounter and the murderer was long gone by 3:30 or so. I know where I think he went and why, but JMO.

We have vastly differing opinions on what happened, but at this point all any of has is conjecture and speculation. At this point I don't care who's theory is is correct. I'm at the point where some one could post that shortly before last contact a U.f.o. was spotted and they saw BG emerge from and I may consider it plausible.

 

[Burnt Toast]

I'm not of the mind they were killed quickly at all.

you think they were still alive at the time they were suppose to be picked up...3:30?

 

[Confusion]

Then why wouldn't he of deleted all the incriminating evidence on her phone ?

Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about, but I don't think it has anything to do with what I asked.

 

[Sir WiggleBottom III]

you think they were still alive at the time they were suppose to be picked up...3:30?

I do, I think they were moved off the abduction site, as imo this was a depraved hebephile sexually motivated killing. What i'm stuck on and I think a large hole in my theory of events, is why they were returned. LE is so tight lipped who knows.