IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #51

[Deleted member 155000]

Feb 24, 2017
DELPHI, Ind. — Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby clarified his on-air comments from a Thursday interview during a Fox59 report, noting he didn't intend to confirm or deny that investigators collected DNA evidence in the double homicide investigation of Abby Williams and Liberty German.

During the interview, Fox 59 anchors asked Leazenby about DNA, and the TV station's report said investigators acquired DNA evidence during the investigation of the case. However, Leazenby said he was speaking about physical evidence in general and not about DNA evidence in particular........

Leazenby said the department is expediting the analysis of all physical evidence, fairly common in a case such as this. While
Leazenby said he can't speak to specifically what evidence was acquired at the scene, every crime scene has physical evidence."
http://www.jconline.com/story/news/...riff-clarifies-reports-dna-evidence/98351378/

******
Crime labs do all sorts of work from breakins to robberies, minor assaults, etc. That DNA from unsolved homicides are processed as a priority, or fast-tracked, would seem logical imo.


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Oh yes, I read this. Did you happen to see any articles that suggest how long they expected the expedited testing to take? I didn't, but they may have commented on this.


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[MistyWaters]

If we also consider that the family who owns the property at the North end of the trail requested that the trail access be closed, I assume that the area was a hang out in terms of partying, not nature.

Yes I agree, the term "teen hangout" doesn't conjure up visions of 15 year olds admiring and contemplating the silent beauty of Mother Nature. But usually such hangouts reach their peak of troublesome happenings during the darkness.

Because adults also used the public trails during the daytime, the hangout thing may have occurred later at night.


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[Bemused]

Oh yes, I read this. Did you happen to see any articles that suggest how long they expected the expedited testing to take? I didn't, but they may have commented on this.


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Superintendent Doug Carter of ISP confirmed to Alexis McAdams they have scientific evidence, including DNA.

https://www.facebook.com/AlexisMcAdamsTV/videos/vb.793471994000343/1609577225723145/?type=2&theater

Doug Carter's boss is the governor and Carter is the top cop in the entire state. I suspect he knows what he's talking about. IMO

 

[Deleted member 155000]

Superintendent Doug Carter of ISP confirmed to Alexis McAdams they have scientific evidence, including DNA.

https://www.facebook.com/AlexisMcAdamsTV/videos/vb.793471994000343/1609577225723145/?type=2&theater

Doug Carter's boss is the governor and Carter is the top cop in the entire state. I suspect he knows what he's talking about. IMO

Thanks, Bemused. I know there's been several comments by LE about having recovered human elements they would test.

Do you remember any additional comments on the timeline for that testing?


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[otto]

Yes I agree, the term "teen hangout" doesn't conjure up visions of 15 year olds admiring and contemplating the silent beauty of Mother Nature. But usually such hangouts reach their peak of troublesome happenings during the darkness.

Because adults also used the public trails during the daytime, the hangout thing may have occurred later at night.


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I think so. The girls probably knew from older siblings or friends (with cars) that the place is a popular party spot. They're the right age to be thinking that maybe they could meet some nice guys close to their age at the park.

 

[Deleted member 155000]

Okay, I think I found it! It does say DNA was recovered here too. I wonder if they have results at this point then and if they will release that their findings were or weren't conclusive.


INDIANAPOLIS, Ind.- On Thursday, investigators say they had recovered DNA evidence from the Delphi crime scene where two girls, 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German, were found murdered.

...“We asked for a fast-track as far as that piece information,” said Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby. "So I can’t go into specifics because of the ongoing [investigation].”

Police haven’t said specifically what kind of evidence they recovered, but DNA forensics expert Dr. Gay Bush says that evidence could be anything.

“It can be items found at the crime scene such as a cigarette butt, or a bottle, or a cup or a straw,” said Dr. Bush. “Or it can be bodily fluids if there’s some kind of assault.”

...

It can sometimes take two days to a week to generate a DNA profile from evidence, if not longer...

“But if you are fast-tracking it…if it’s a case that’s got some urgency to it, it can be done in a couple of days,” said Bush.

http://fox59.com/2017/02/23/dna-evidence-recovered-in-delphi-murder-investigation/

 

[asyousay]

Okay, I think I found it! It does say DNA was recovered here too. I wonder if they have results at this point then and if they will release that their findings were or weren't conclusive.


INDIANAPOLIS, Ind.- On Thursday, investigators say they had recovered DNA evidence from the Delphi crime scene where two girls, 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German, were found murdered.

...“We asked for a fast-track as far as that piece information,” said Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby. "So I can’t go into specifics because of the ongoing [investigation].”

Police haven’t said specifically what kind of evidence they recovered, but DNA forensics expert Dr. Gay Bush says that evidence could be anything.

“It can be items found at the crime scene such as a cigarette butt, or a bottle, or a cup or a straw,” said Dr. Bush. “Or it can be bodily fluids if there’s some kind of assault.”

...

It can sometimes take two days to a week to generate a DNA profile from evidence, if not longer...

“But if you are fast-tracking it…if it’s a case that’s got some urgency to it, it can be done in a couple of days,” said Bush.

http://fox59.com/2017/02/23/dna-evidence-recovered-in-delphi-murder-investigation/

So it can be done in a few days , and let's be honest they are dealing with a double homicide on teenage girls so why would they delay it. It's a matter of urgency that this person is caught!

IMO

 

[Jethro4WS]

Maybe, we should ask: Why had Libby been there? Why again a short time later?? The girls had to be driven to that area, they had to be picked up again - why exactly this place to "walk a little bit in the sunshine" and have a teenager talk with the friend??
Maybe, the answer to that question would help more than to ask: Why had the BG/perp (and possibly an accomplice) been there?

It is known why Libby had been there recently. That, however, is a topic (geocaching) that had a slippery slope that caused much work for the mods in the earlier threads. Also, it is (to me) very critical to understand where Abby lived in relation to where the crime occurred. Again, a bit of a slippery slope. But due to that the girls being either at the bridge or the general vicinity is not something of a novelty that would stand out in any way - well, at least to me.

 

[Bemused]

Thanks, Bemused. I know there's been several comments by LE about having recovered human elements they would test.

Do you remember any additional comments on the timeline for that testing?


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No, not specifically and we don't know what kind of DNA or where it was found. Many people seem to believe the motive was SA, or at least it's an element in these murders. We don't know because LE has not said.

There also seems to be a lot of quibbling that if DNA was recovered the case should've been solved and someone arrested weeks ago. I do not believe that is the case. The LEOs, maybe Leazenby, just the other day was quoted in the Journal and Courier article that they have a lot of evidence and some is pending results from the lab. LE also have said they've interviewed 200 or so people. They have a lot of tips to assess and run down. A case is not made on a single DNA sample no matter where it came from. IMO

IMO, none of the LEOs want this to take any longer than anyone else does. Why would they?

 

[MistyWaters]

Oh yes, I read this. Did you happen to see any articles that suggest how long they expected the expedited testing to take? I didn't, but they may have commented on this.


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Somewhere at the beginning of this case I was sure I read an interview indicating DNA fast tracking could yield results in as little as 2 days. But I'm still looking for that. However I have learned that parentage DNA testing is indicated to take as little as one day. Support payments or not is a priority to some I guess.

One interesting thing about searching through media reports about this case is reading about other details that I probably originally skimmed through, assuming this case was a slam dunk and would be solved quickly when suspicions of RL first hit SM. Now I've taken a 360.


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[Bemused]

Okay, I think I found it! It does say DNA was recovered here too. I wonder if they have results at this point then and if they will release that their findings were or weren't conclusive.


INDIANAPOLIS, Ind.- On Thursday, investigators say they had recovered DNA evidence from the Delphi crime scene where two girls, 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German, were found murdered.

...“We asked for a fast-track as far as that piece information,” said Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby. "So I can’t go into specifics because of the ongoing [investigation].”

Police haven’t said specifically what kind of evidence they recovered, but DNA forensics expert Dr. Gay Bush says that evidence could be anything.

“It can be items found at the crime scene such as a cigarette butt, or a bottle, or a cup or a straw,” said Dr. Bush. “Or it can be bodily fluids if there’s some kind of assault.”

...

It can sometimes take two days to a week to generate a DNA profile from evidence, if not longer...

“But if you are fast-tracking it…if it’s a case that’s got some urgency to it, it can be done in a couple of days,” said Bush.

http://fox59.com/2017/02/23/dna-evidence-recovered-in-delphi-murder-investigation/

And if the DNA belongs to someone where their DNA was expected to be found (car, home, blood drops, garage, piece of clothing, cigarette butt, etc.) as in or around their home, or if there was no match then it's going to take a lot longer to make a case. They have to knock on doors, review tips, check alibis and put whatever other evidence they've found together into a cohesive case they can prove in court. IMO

 

[antechinusRAWR]

If DNA was the only thing LE relied on a lot more innocent people would be in prison, IMO.

This is so true. Sometimes I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle to get people to understand that DNA is not the super infallible evidence everyone's been led to believe (& I believed it too in the 80s & 90s)

Standard testing has so many issues (& I'm not just talking about cross contamination & collection errors - the problems are far deeper & more widespread than that). Familial testing & phenotyping (which isn't accepted in most countries due to the issues with it) are even more concerning.

The level of trust people (including LE) place in DNA evidence is truly frightening - & contrary to popular belief, it's innocent people who have the most to lose by volunteering samples or familial searches - because they don't deserve to be scrutinised, prosecuted & incarcerated, but plenty of innocent people will go through all of that just because they're "a match" & most people don't understand what "a match" means in this context.



It's almost impossible to get people to believe you're not some whacked out, authority hating conspiracy theorist when you say these things though :\


I don't want to derail the thread, but this is really important information for everyone, not just people with an interest in criminology/forensic sciences. Everyone should read it & then research more, just in case it ever affects someone you care about.



https://www.newscientist.com/articl...ible-dna-evidence-can-mean-prison-or-freedom/

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727743-300-how-dna-evidence-creates-victims-of-chance/

 

[MistyWaters]

As an example, reading this Feb 23rd report in its entire, because no suspects have been identified yet at the two month mark, one could lean towards the culprit is not local. And the complexity of the case is once again eluded to.

Feb 23, 2017
“We have gone through a number of individuals at this point,” he said. “This is basically a process of elimination in this situation. In relation to the investigation, we start locally and then expand out.”

Leazenby couldn’t address the specific forensics of the case, but he did say investigators were looking at all of the evidence, from statements made by individuals to physical clues. He said there were “several pieces to this huge puzzle.”
http://fox59.com/2017/02/23/carroll...investigation-says-dna-evidence-fast-tracked/



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[Bemused]

Just bringing this pic over from the last thread before assumptions take hold re RL's familiarity with walking that bridge (or anything else people infer from it that may have a negative impact on perceptions of him re this investigation).



http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Delphi-13-Feb-2017-50&p=13315665#post13315665



I'm not sure which person is being identified as RL in that group, but I strongly suggest people familiarise themselves with the "Save The Monon High Bridge" campaign so that RL isn't mistaken for any, or all, of the local white haired retirees who frequent the bridge & trails as volunteers for the restoration group.

There are articles & news vids going back several years demonstrating that more than one volunteer STRONGLY resembles RL both physically & in their style of dress. At a distance it would be impossible to tell them apart





There are links re local news coverage of the group & volunteers below.

Again, anyone who was questioning RL's reported fear of heights or anything else potentially negative about him on the basis of that pic is VERY STRONGLY advised to look at these 2 links (at the least)

This is from local station WLFI - News 18

[video]https://youtu.be/dsgSqr87yp8[/video]

(sorry, can't embed the vid, no idea why but the "post" button isn't there on the vid link box & typing the [VIDEO/VIDEO] thing doesn't seem to work either)

This is from the Carroll County Comet

http://www.carrollcountycomet.com/n...(and)_Letters/Save_the_Monon_High_Bridge.html


(& just an FYI, like other local men unfortunate enough to dress like BG and have their images online & associated with Delphi, members of these groups were accused on soc med in the first week of the investigation - any man who posted vids or pix of the High Bridge was accused that first week)

IMO, that does not look like RL in the photo to me but I can't swear to it under oath because the photo is blurry and I wasn't there that day.

 

[iscaremyself]

the above DNA article was incorrect and corrected by police officials the next day..discovery of DNA was never confirmed or denied. http://www.jconline.com/story/news/...riff-clarifies-reports-dna-evidence/98351378/

 

[MistyWaters]

And if the DNA belongs to someone where their DNA was expected to be found (car, home, blood drops, garage, piece of clothing, cigarette butt, etc.) as in or around their home, or if there was no match then it's going to take a lot longer to make a case. They have to knock on doors, review tips, check alibis and put whatever other evidence they've found together into a cohesive case they can prove in court. IMO

Absolutely true. DNA can be very strong evidence, for example in SA or violent deaths when found on the victims body where it dies not belong.......as opposed to DNA from physical items at or near the crime scene that are only evidence if it can be proven there's a actual connection.

Microscopic DNA transfer has become a hot topic as well. I'm reminded of JBRamsey and what appeared to be a sudden big breakthrough several years ago when DNA trace evidence was discovered on her undergarments, initially proclaimed to belong to the suspect. Now one theory is that it came from a Chinese worker, a sewing person or packager in the manufacturing shop.


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[MistyWaters]

Okay, I think I found it! It does say DNA was recovered here too. I wonder if they have results at this point then and if they will release that their findings were or weren't conclusive.


INDIANAPOLIS, Ind.- On Thursday, investigators say they had recovered DNA evidence from the Delphi crime scene where two girls, 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German, were found murdered.

...“We asked for a fast-track as far as that piece information,” said Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby. "So I can’t go into specifics because of the ongoing [investigation].”

Police haven’t said specifically what kind of evidence they recovered, but DNA forensics expert Dr. Gay Bush says that evidence could be anything.

“It can be items found at the crime scene such as a cigarette butt, or a bottle, or a cup or a straw,” said Dr. Bush. “Or it can be bodily fluids if there’s some kind of assault.”

...

It can sometimes take two days to a week to generate a DNA profile from evidence, if not longer...

“But if you are fast-tracking it…if it’s a case that’s got some urgency to it, it can be done in a couple of days,” said Bush.

http://fox59.com/2017/02/23/dna-evidence-recovered-in-delphi-murder-investigation/

Thank you!

 

[Bemused]

This is so true. Sometimes I feel like I'm fighting a losing battle to get people to understand that DNA is not the super infallible evidence everyone's been led to believe (& I believed it too in the 80s & 90s)

Standard testing has so many issues (& I'm not just talking about cross contamination & collection errors - the problems are far deeper & more widespread than that). Familial testing & phenotyping (which isn't accepted in most countries due to the issues with it) are even more concerning.

The level of trust people (including LE) place in DNA evidence is truly frightening - & contrary to popular belief, it's innocent people who have the most to lose by volunteering samples or familial searches - because they don't deserve to be scrutinised, prosecuted & incarcerated, but plenty of innocent people will go through all of that just because they're "a match" & most people don't understand what "a match" means in this context.



It's almost impossible to get people to believe you're not some whacked out, authority hating conspiracy theorist when you say these things though :\


I don't want to derail the thread, but this is really important information for everyone, not just people with an interest in criminology/forensic sciences. Everyone should read it & then research more, just in case it ever affects someone you care about.



https://www.newscientist.com/articl...ible-dna-evidence-can-mean-prison-or-freedom/

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727743-300-how-dna-evidence-creates-victims-of-chance/

Batwoman spends an amorous evening with her main squeeze Batman. Batman, like some men are prone to do, is snoring like the Super Chief within five minutes. Batwoman has to get up early to crush crime so she gathers her cape and heads to her Batvehicle.

Some guy who's lurking behind a tree, and who has an egg shape, jumps out and tries to steal the Batvehicle. BW resists, he rips her superhero costume down the front and bashes her on the head with his cane.

Marie and Frank Barone live across the street from Batman. Marie is a busybody who spends a great deal of time clutching her pearls and peering out of her lace curtains. Marie sees the egg shaped man running off and BW in the driveway. She excitedly places a call to 911 and the first officers roll up.

The coroner finds Batman's DNA in her body. Despite the fact LE has knocked on doors and interviewed Marie Barone, and taken her eyewitness statement of the egg shaped guy scurrying down the street, should LE arrest Batman? Not in my world. YMMV

 

[Deleted member 155000]

Absolutely true. DNA can be very strong evidence, for example in SA or violent deaths when found on the victims body where it dies not belong.......as opposed to DNA from physical items at or near the crime scene that are only evidence if it can be proven there's a actual connection.

Microscopic DNA transfer has become a hot topic as well. I'm reminded of JBRamsey and what appeared to be a sudden big breakthrough several years ago when DNA trace evidence was discovered on her undergarments, initially proclaimed to belong to the suspect. Now one theory is that it came from a Chinese worker, a sewing person or packager in the manufacturing shop.


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Wowwww. If they can now pick up DNA transfer from a factory worker, that sure complicates things!!!


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[Cryptic]

Why hang out there?
I have not seen many photos with ppl hanging out.
Looks desolate.
What's the attraction?

The area is probably a uhmm....."multi use" area for local teen agers. Though the area is not deeply rural, it is still rural enough to make urban venues inconvenient to get to.
I imagine that a multi use area would see the following activities by local youth:

- Easily accessible spot for a change of scenery when bored at home.
- Place to walk with a boyfriend or girlfriend and have a little privacy
- Relatively isolated spot for drinking / horsing around
- Relatively isolated spot for meetings. On some occasions, this could involve low level, casual user to casual user, marijuana sales.

Though I don't imagine that there were hordes of local youth there on a day to day basis, my bet is that it is well known spot for people interested in the above activities. This could be especially so for local youth whose families don't have a lot of disposable income for spontaneous trips to Lafayette activities.

I'm not sure which person is being identified as RL in that group, but I strongly suggest people familiarise themselves with the "Save The Monon High Bridge" campaign so that RL isn't mistaken for any, or all, of the local white haired retirees who frequent the bridge & trails as volunteers for the restoration group.

Again, anyone who was questioning RL's reported fear of heights or anything else potentially negative about him on the basis of that pic is VERY STRONGLY advised to look at these 2 links (at the least)

Given his track record with the police, RL does not strike me as being a civic minded individual. My guess is that his interest in the bridge, its future, and the associated nature trails is "no interest, except on the few occasions when trespassers become particularly annoying"