IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #54

[Falling Down]

Hmmm, I don't know that. I was thinking of decreased visibility from searchers. Do you know how far that flat area goes back from the edge of the creek?
As to this issue could the three of them have walked in from the cemetery after driving from the south east end of the bridge, would the crime scene still be approximately the same due to the depth of the flat area?

My take on the initial "search" is the general vibe among folks, especially LE, was that the girls were not in any danger. So there wasn't a sense of urgency, such as that in an Amber Alert situation. Nobody witnessed the abduction, and there was no evidence of foul play the evening they went missing.

Darkness had pretty much fallen once the search got going, according to witnesses and the MSM reports. Darkness in that little valley would have been prior to the official time that dusk would have fallen. Despite the area really being not all that large, really, it would have been difficult to find the girls They were on private property, and by what I've seen, slightly out-of-sight of the bridge, where the initial search would have begun. MOO is stands to reason that the bodies of the deceased would have been easy to miss, even with the lack of foliage considering the time of year.

JMO

 

[cloudajo]

It always bothered me that they called off the search that night. And LE's comment about the only danger is the temperature dropping, well isn't that concern enough?! As a parent, I'd be out there all night long with everyone I know with search lights run by generators and calling out their names with a bull horns while combing the ground and trees.

Sorry this is long. Just to clarify, although LE scaled back about midnight, family, friends and volunteers continued to search overnight. Abby's mom and Libby's grandfather talk about how worried and scared they were that Monday night (Mike Patty even mentions possible abduction). As others have mentioned, it doesn't appear to have been an organized grid search that night, it was very dark with a lot of ground to cover (as seen in the actual snippets of video of the search). The search the next day seemed to be very organized and they had light.

6:20PM Sunset in Delphi (Ref)

6:30PM Property Owner RL stated that this is the time volunteer searchers stopped at his home to ask for permission to go back on his property and that two girls were missing. (Ref)

Evening/Night Search parties scoured the base of the bridge and surrounding trails, but darkness made the searches nearly impossible, Leazenby said. (Ref)

WLFI Report - transcribed some excerpts starting at about :35 (Ref)

• Mike Patty: …Upset, confused, obviously very distraught. Just worried, all I want to do is have the girls get home safe.
• Anna Williams: Getting scared now.
• Reporter: Abigail’s mom, Anna Williams, has spent hours worrying, just hoping to hear her little girl is ok.
• Anna Williams: It’s getting cold, been out a long time, and don’t know what time they ate last.
• Reporter: The girls haven’t answered their phones since around the time they went missing.
• Mike Patty: Missing, abducted, we don’t know for sure. Cellphone has been pinging around town here, there’s a cell phone tower, but the ping was last noted about 5 or 6 hours ago, they say the phone’s now dead.
• Reporter: The last snapchat from one of the girls was from 2:07.
• Mike Patty: I saw a text where they got delivered but they never got read.
• Anna Williams: Very scary situation right now, and I just, I just want her home.
• Reporter: Now many are on an extensive search to find them...

Midnight The search for the two missing girls was scaled back by authorities around midnight because of the dark. At this point in time, Sheriff Laezenby said they had no reason to believe that the girls were in imminent danger and crews would resume their search in the morning. (Ref)

Family and volunteers continued to search. (Ref)

Tues, Feb 14
In video, WTHR reporter says good morning, but it’s still dark. She mentions family and others wanting to help search still coming out (with flashlights). (Ref) (Ref)

7:40AM Sunrise in Delphi (Ref)

Sunrise In the video, Fox59 reporter mentions the sun coming up, seeing people come throughout the morning to help with search, people searching all night. (Ref)

Morning "With darkness last night, we probably didn't pick up on everything," he said. "With daylight in our favor, we're sending folks back out to basically back track where we've already been." A specialized K-9 group from Macomb, Illinois, aided in the morning's search, Leazenby said Tuesday morning. (Ref)

By mid-morning, the downtown Delphi Fire Department became a makeshift command center for volunteers assisting in the search. Crews were being sent out 10 to 12 people at a time to help cover an area of 20 to 25 square miles, Leazenby said. Officials weren't sure just how many volunteers came, but sign-in sheets appeared to log hundreds. (Ref)

 

[DeDee]

True enough. Let's look at the facts. In the photos of both Abby and the suspect there is no other person in the frame. Police have released information about one suspect. We can imagine that five people were involved in the abduction, but at this time we know of one, and therefore it makes sense to work with that fact. By all means, anyone who wants to consider the possibility that there were three or four abductors, go for it, but at this time we have information of one.

otto, I read every one of your posts, when time allows. You are a wonderful sleuth with many good ideas.

Fact: LE stated that BG was a participant before he became the main suspect.

Fact: LE does not know if the audio recorded voice belongs to BG.

When considering those two compelling facts, how can you eliminate other participants possibly being involved?

 

[whiskers]

Is anyone theorizing that these homicides may have been perpetratated by a member/s of LE or possibly a "wannabe"
cop?

just curious.

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Like many of you, the thought has crossed my mind many times. Especially if someone in covering for another person. Or a rogue ex or current LE.

 

[skibaboo]

otto, I read every one of your posts, when time allows. You are a wonderful sleuth with many good ideas.

Fact: LE stated that BG was a participant before he became the main suspect.

Fact: LE does not know if the audio recorded voice belongs to BG.

When considering those two compelling facts, how can you eliminate other participants possibly being involved?

BBM - I though initially they released his photo and said they wanted to talk to him. Then they stated he was a suspect and believed to have participated in the murders.

LE have never ruled out more than one suspect, IMO they seem to have been open to the possibility of more than one perp

 

[lelandrob]

If he/they left with the girls, why would he/they come back to the scene of the crime?

The only reason I can think of that he/they would come back to the abduction site, is that he did not want evidence of a crime found at the secondary site where the girls were taken. If, for example, he took them to land owned by himself or a relative, and he and left them there, he would be implicating himself in the crime.

 

[Deleted member 278]

The only reason I can think of that he/they would come back to the abduction site, is that he did not want evidence of a crime found at the secondary site where the girls were taken. If, for example, he took them to land owned by himself or a relative, and he and left them there, he would be implicating himself in the crime.

Based on the location of where the bodies were found, I think it would have been easier for him to drop them somewhere else like along a road somewhere rather than having to carry or drag two bodies. JMO.

 

[Bird of Paradise]

The only reason I can think of that he/they would come back to the abduction site, is that he did not want evidence of a crime found at the secondary site where the girls were taken. If, for example, he took them to land owned by himself or a relative, and he and left them there, he would be implicating himself in the crime.

This isn't directed at you because I know you are trying to explain, but I still don't understand the relevance of taking them back there. There's lots of roads, land...etc that would have been much easier to place them. Even outside the cemetary. Why trudge over to THAT specific location?

 

[Shiressleuth]

My take on the initial "search" is the general vibe among folks, especially LE, was that the girls were not in any danger. So there wasn't a sense of urgency, such as that in an Amber Alert situation. Nobody witnessed the abduction, and there was no evidence of foul play the evening they went missing.

Darkness had pretty much fallen once the search got going, according to witnesses and the MSM reports. Darkness in that little valley would have been prior to the official time that dusk would have fallen. Despite the area really being not all that large, really, it would have been difficult to find the girls They were on private property, and by what I've seen, slightly out-of-sight of the bridge, where the initial search would have begun. MOO is stands to reason that the bodies of the deceased would have been easy to miss, even with the lack of foliage considering the time of year.

JMO

If they were not intending to search on that side of the Creek why did they ask RL early on at 06.30 p.m. that evening for permission, which he gave?

 

[MistyWaters]

Judging by the lay of the land at the crime scene, why not walk even further from the creek than 50 to 60 ft. ?

Have you watched any videos of the crime scene area? If not I hope I can find one to link. It's by no means flat or level to the river bank. It's rough terraine and the river runs in a ravine below it.

 

[Bird of Paradise]

If they were not intending to search on that side of the Creek why did they ask RL early on at 06.30 p.m. that evening for permission, which he gave?

How long would it take to search 40 acres in the dark? I don't know.

 

[lelandrob]

This isn't directed at you because I know you are trying to explain, but I still don't understand the relevance of taking them back there. There's lots of roads, land...etc that would have been much easier to place them. Even outside the cemetary. Why trudge over to THAT specific location?

I understand. It wouldn't be my plan either. Just a speculation that he may have wanted the girls found, or not cared, but needed to distance himself from any connection to the area.

 

[MistyWaters]

Based on the location of where the bodies were found, I think it would have been easier for him to drop them somewhere else like along a road somewhere rather than having to carry or drag two bodies. JMO.

Definitely. In the location they were found, it makes no logistical sense to drag or carry bodies over the steep rugged terrain of that location, if that's even possible. I think RL ought to know his land and when he said the girls had to have walked there (or ran, I suppose) I can understand why.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Based on the location of where the bodies were found, I think it would have been easier for him to drop them somewhere else like along a road somewhere rather than having to carry or drag two bodies. JMO.

Wouldn't that be more likely to be noticed? And they might say where's so and so ? Why is he not helping with the search? Helping with the search while you have the bodies in the boot waiting to dispose of them would be good cover actually. Also, he may have taken them to the creek bank separately whenevever he had the chance, thru the night, who knows? MOO. Did anyone park at back of cemetery during the search that night I wonder?

 

[OneParticularHarbor]

Anything is possible, of course, but in my uneducated opinion, that which is the most common, most simple scenario is most often the correct one. While it is of course conceivable, I just don't see someone abducting two girls, and then returning them deceased to the exact spot where searching was still ongoing (reportedly family stayed out overnight.) It just doesn't ring logically to me. When I think about the most likely scenario (IMO IMO IMO) this guy was stalking the area to either assault, kill, or both. He was easily able to subdue both of them by threatening one with a weapon and telling the other that if she screamed or ran her friend was dead. Why pick two? Maybe he didn't see the second girl. Maybe he wanted two. Maybe he was stalking one of them rather than the area. Certainly no one but BG knows. March them down the hill and across the creek at a low point, do whatever he did, and leave. 100% my own opinion, but it always seems to me like the simplest answer is the most common answer. For every pig farmer feeding bodies to his pigs, serial killers burying bodies on his property, or ritual killings, there are probably hundreds if not thousands of straight forward murders.

As to why didn't the searchers see the bodies the night of the 13th, RL reported being asked that night (WISH tv link) if they could search his property. Twilight in Delphi that night was 6:47pm according to the calendar I posted below. If the searchers even made it on to his property that night, they were working with the limited beams of flashlights and a large, brushy area with a lot of leaf cover. I have participated in a few evening searches, and many more daytime ones, usually for an older adult with dementia or a child with autism who left their home, a handful of runaways, as well as a few missing persons reports that turned out to be suicides or ODs. A few times we absolutely missed what we were searching for by mere feet even in the daytime, due to leaf cover, not having enough searchers, inexperienced searchers, searchers not using a grid or line search but willy-nilly looking, and one time because we didn't look up despite the searchers being in exactly the right place. Can't provide links to those, as they were my personal experiences.

My long winded point was, I would be much more inclined to believe they were simply missed in the search that night, rather than someone going out of their way to return their bodies to that precise location. YMMV, and I genuinely appreciate all of these differing opinions because at the end of the day, none of us know the truth, but we all care a heck of a lot about these girls and getting justice for them.

http://wishtv.com/2017/02/16/police-question-multiple-people-in-delphi-girls-murders/

http://www.sunrisesunset.com/calendar.asp

 

[kat913]

Well they could have been lead to the North end of the bridge and then taken 'down the hill' from that way.

[video=youtube;umWDK8UrpO0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umWDK8UrpO0[/video]

Thanks for this Stude....I may have overlooked this before but that gravel pit interests me. Anyone done any looking into that? I have tried to keep up on threads and this may be a mute point at this moment but that spot is interesting as well as USAggregates (which may even be the name of that gravel pit). Just something that caught my attention...thanks!

 

[GangaMa]

You do not think he is a risk taker? Can you elaborate please? I am truly interested in anyone's thoughts. Thanks

-Nin

Hi Nin,
Your question about risk started me thinking about the entire notion of "risk" and what place it has in our thinking and our culture. Specifically, how do people like SKs think about risk - if at all? There are entire professions and businesses that are run using the mathematics of risk (insurance, gambling, market trading, weather, etc.), and that I can understand, but I cannot imagine what any kind of murderer would be thinking in any situation, much less how they process situational risk.
For some people, thinking through a risk involves almost magical thinking - e.g., if I sneak downstairs to get get a piece of cake in the middle of the night, what are the chances that Mom will catch me and punish me for it? A child pondering such a question would no doubt engage in some fairly magical thought processes. On the other side of the coin, there are people who, as adults, really calculate quite clearly and coldly what the risk of capture/consequence/loss/success would be if they, say, stole a car.
But thinking about getting caught for a brutal murder and/or SA ? I really can't fathom how that would go. I am sure that some of our national LE agencies have some fairly sophisticated software devoted to the assessment of risk of certain behaviors, from terrorism to murder. And I'd really like to know if those gov't resources are being devoted to help with this case. And if there are any good studies already published that cover this subject.
MOO

 

[DeDee]

This isn't directed at you because I know you are trying to explain, but I still don't understand the relevance of taking them back there. There's lots of roads, land...etc that would have been much easier to place them. Even outside the cemetary. Why trudge over to THAT specific location?

BOP, it is difficult for normal people to think like a psychopathic killer. Their motives and movements may not make sense to us because everything that was done was an evil plan developed by psychopathic murderers.
:cow: Also, as with almost every murder, not everything is relevant. By example, I want to know who was scheduled to pick up the two girls that afternoon. It may or may not be relevant to the crimes.

 

[Shiressleuth]

How long would it take to search 40 acres in the dark? I don't know.

Initially it would be the creek bank only I would think, not the whole 40 acres. The wooded areas would take longer to search than any pasture land.

 

[AFTM]

I took a break from this site for over a week because of the constant repetitive discussions that are going on here. We really need to find a way to cut through these repetitive issues and move ahead. We are not helping these children this way. We need to list what we know to be facts...truths...not discuss every scenario every which way to Sunday time and time again. There are so many scenarios on here it boggles the mind how people come up with them. I am feeling really bad for Abby and Libby.

I don't mean to offend anyone but it is depressing to read again. I was hoping to read something new.

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