IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #55

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What do we gain as sleuthers by acquiescing to this "life after death" scenario?
 
I'm posting this here because some have thought maybe the cases were connected. This Thurs. (5-4) at 10 pm central time, KWWL out of Waterloo, IA will have an interview with Lyric Cook's dad from prison. In the preview, the reporter asks him how he feels about so many people thinking his daughter's disappearance was drug related..of course we will have to watch to get the answer. I know LE ruled out the cases being connected but the dates of the cousin's disappearance and LG and AW being reversed numbers still just makes me wonder.
 
ocgrad said:
The autopsies were completed on the 15th.
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Fair enough. But we don't know when the family was given the information nor when they gave the information to the funeral home. The Death Certifcate is not immediately issued or available until long after after its filed with the State, is that correct?

In the case of sudden and tragic death of a child, to the family the horror of Abby's death would likely supersede the need for exact specifics.

A published obituary is not a legal document.
 
Correct. Depends on jurisdiction, but it can take anywhere from weeks to months to get a death certificate.

ETA: family can write whatever they want in an obit. You don't even have to place an obit and can save lots of money by not doing so.

Example: Indianapolis Star Tribunne guidelines to writing an obit:
http://www.startribune.com/how-to-place-an-obituary-notice-in-star-tribune/11603211/

$10.65 per line (30-25 characters per line) = $$$$$

MistyWaters said:
Fair enough. But we don't know when the family was given the information nor when they gave the information to the funeral home. The Death Certifcate is not immediately issued or available until long after after its filed with the State, is that correct?
Click to expand...
 
Shiressleuth said:
I stated it in the post. One of the obits has the 14th as the date so that is the evidence.
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That's not evidence at all though & I don't understand why it's still being referred to as "evidence". The obituary dates have been covered many, many, many times throughout these threads - including this thread within the past 24hrs. It's also come up repeatedly in almost every online conversation on this case since 14 Feb. Every time it does people explain step by step that obituary dates can be whatever families want them to be.


It is EXTREMELY COMMON in missing persons cases for some families to choose the date of disappearance, for others to choose the date they were located & yet others choose something else entirely. Some go with the official date, others can't bear to use anything but the date they first felt in their hearts & minds that their loved one was really gone. It has nothing to do with official govt record keeping.

Members who have ACTUAL PERSONAL EXPERIENCE of obituaries for missing & murdered family & friends have shared their stories throughout these threads to try & help people see that the obituary dates are not the hard & fast "clue" that many people suppose them to be. People who have worked with obituaries have also shared their personal experiences to try & explain this.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to police anyone's ideas, it's 100% ok if people want to theorise about the dates. BUT ... it needs to be recognised that these are just personal theories & at this time these theories have no basis in fact. It's just supposition based on assumption. Nothing more.

For the sake of these families & other families of the missing & murdered it's really important that people understand that obituary dates are not official death dates, sometimes they're not death dates at all - & that's the only thing relating to obituary dates that can be called a fact (unless there is other incontrovertible proof).

(& re other proof, it will never come from debates over the meaning of the word "killed". In the context that it was used in the autopsy suppression documents for this case, the wordhas one meaning only)
 
It would be interesting if LE would reveal what agencies are still involved in the investigation.

"Roughly 10 different agencies remain actively involved in the investigation and between 20 and 30 investigators continue working on the case each day, sorting through tips, searching for new leads and interviewing people based on the information they’ve received."
http://www.theindychannel.com/news/...iews-later-still-no-suspects-in-girls-murders


These are some possibilities that I can think of. What might others be? (In Canada the RCMP encompasses almost all aspects, with the exception of some municipal police forces. The different American ways have always interested me.)

Delphi Sheriff's Office
Carroll County Sheriff's Office
FBI
Indiana State Police
Homeland Security
Indiana Computer Crimes Against Children


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antechinusRAWR said:
That's not evidence at all though & I don't understand why it's still being referred to as "evidence". The obituary dates have been covered many, many, many times throughout these threads - including this thread within the past 24hrs. It's also come up repeatedly in almost every online conversation on this case since 14 Feb. Every time it does people explain step by step that obituary dates can be whatever families want them to be.


It is EXTREMELY COMMON in missing persons cases for some families to choose the date of disappearance, for others to choose the date they were located & yet others choose something else entirely. Some go with the official date, others can't bear to use anything but the date they first felt in their hearts & minds that their loved one was really gone. It has nothing to do with official govt record keeping.

Members who have ACTUAL PERSONAL EXPERIENCE of obituaries for missing & murdered family & friends have shared their stories throughout these threads to try & help people see that the obituary dates are not the hard & fast "clue" that many people suppose them to be. People who have worked with obituaries have also shared their personal experiences to try & explain this.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to police anyone's ideas, it's 100% ok if people want to theorise about the dates. BUT ... it needs to be recognised that these are just personal theories & at this time these theories have no basis in fact. It's just supposition based on assumption. Nothing more.

For the sake of these families & other families of the missing & murdered it's really important that people understand that obituary dates are not official death dates, sometimes they're not death dates at all - & that's the only thing relating to obituary dates that can be called a fact (unless there is other incontrovertible proof).

(& re other proof, it will never come from debates over the meaning of the word "killed". In the context that it was used in the autopsy suppression documents for this case, the wordhas one meaning only)
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:goodpost:
 
I read in an article very early on in the case that LE wanted info on a man with his right hand in his pocket, among other things. Does anyone else recall this?

Could investigators know this was a habit of BG's, or have knowledge that he had cuts on his right hand? TIA.

Just wanted to bring it up because it has bothered me, especially when I could not find the link. (And felt funny posting about this without one.)
 
EmmaRose said:
I read in an article very early on in the case that LE wanted info on a man with his right hand in his pocket, among other things. Does anyone else recall this?

Could investigators know this was a habit of BG's, or have knowledge that he had cuts on his right hand? TIA.

Just wanted to bring it up because it has bothered me, especially when I could not find the link. (And felt funny posting about this without one.)
Click to expand...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...wo-girls-a-chilling-recording-of-three-words/

That link describes the suspect as having his hands in his pockets but I couldnt find LE asking for info on a man with his right hand in his pocket. Other than that I recall a news conference where they asked for people to look at his stance and body build.

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EmmaRose said:
I read in an article very early on in the case that LE wanted info on a man with his right hand in his pocket, among other things. Does anyone else recall this?

Could investigators know this was a habit of BG's, or have knowledge that he had cuts on his right hand? TIA.

Just wanted to bring it up because it has bothered me, especially when I could not find the link. (And felt funny posting about this without one.)
Click to expand...

Apparently it was mentioned in one of the press conferences. I don't have a link but it was discussed earlier.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Delphi-13-Feb-2017-21&p=13207322#post13207322
 
MistyWaters said:
Fair enough. But we don't know when the family was given the information nor when they gave the information to the funeral home. The Death Certifcate is not immediately issued or available until long after after its filed with the State, is that correct?

In the case of sudden and tragic death of a child, to the family the horror of Abby's death would likely supersede the need for exact specifics.

A published obituary is not a legal document.
Click to expand...

In cases when there is an autopsy the death certificate is filed by the coroner electronically and the funeral director cannot process the body until that's done. I don't think they can even transport the body unless the signed death certificate has been filed. Indiana started using electronic signing and filing death certificates in 2011 and as recently as 2015 there was a public outcry due to a major backlog where people were having to wait several weeks to get their loved ones bodies transferred to the funeral homes. As for getting a notarized copy I think that can take several days or weeks. Also the autopsy must have the cause, manner and time of death and that must be provided to the family before any information, like identity, can be released to the media. Considering these laws and requirements I think it is highly likely the funeral director and family had the time of death provided by the coroner. That's not to say the date used in the obituary is a fact or why they used the 14th. Just saying what the law requires.
 
Since this keeps coming up... obituaries are written by the families, not the coroner, not the funeral director. No one fact checks them. Despite autopsies being complete, it takes weeks to get a death certificate. When my son died it took over a month, and that was only the "preliminary" one.

Case in point:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/weird-n...wo-obituaries-one-wife-one-girlfriend-n624371

Joseph Greenidge Jr., the funeral director at Greenidge Funeral Homes, told KYW Newsradio in Philadelphia it isn't unheard of for there to be multiple obituaries written from different perspectives.*

And a rather amusing obit...

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/0...tuary-on-his-passing-refuses-to-hold-funeral/

Leslie Ray ‘Popeye’*Charping was born in Galveston on November 20, 1942 and passed away January 30, 2017, which was 29 years longer than expected and much longer than he deserved.*

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2017/02/03/it-was-quite-fantastic-mans-quirky-obituary-goes-viral/

Walt, along with Barcley and another friend, wrote lines like “Walt was born in the back seat of a Greyhound bus rollin’ down Highway 41.” And, “His infectious personality led to a city-wide quarantine.”

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2017/03/prominent_grand_rapids_attorne.html

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6613160

Norma Rae Flicker Brewer, a resident of Fairfield, passed away while climbing Mount Kilimanjaro,”


It is highly likely both girls died on the 13th.

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Here is my own opinion....i have sat on this some time as i know i will be asked to explain my rationale....but due to the content this might be tricky with the rules in place....anyway. .here are my thoughts:

1) the perp is closer to the girls/family than we think
2) i think this is an isolated case and without breaking rules i cannot discuss possible scenarios as to how i have come to this conclusion. It ties in with number 1 on my list and i would expect police to be telling people to be on their guard etc which ive not seen anything (correct me if im wrong)
3) the perp is not smart. Not really, he just has a good alibi i think and with being close to the girls the dna proves nothing
4) i agree he probably did have a kill kit, gun, knows the trail and bridge area well etc...
5) i think it will be one of those cases where the voice and build fit well but it would be 'too obvious' and unbelievable to be the guy that gets caught
6) i cant go into my rationale too much but he knew the girls would be there beforehand but didnt know he had been filmed.
I also believe that the crime itself will end up being really not that complex but proving the suspect did it will be.
I.e if BGs dna is present as he has been in contact with the girls and someone claims to have been with him at the time of the incident, the video has nothing significant and concrete to prove it was him then surely the police cannot do anything? With nothing to go on.

This is ALL my own opinions and i will try my best to explain anything i can. Im throwing it out there to get it off my chest.



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Shiressleuth said:
Am I allowed to answer in a humorous way? What effing licence?
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Didn't you get your badge in the mail?

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