IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #55

[LostOldUserName]

It's obvious from the shadows that the picture was taken around 2:07pm. From Google Maps the bridge runs at an azimuth of about 123 degrees (you could use a protractor). So the cross ties run at about 90 degrees plus that, or 213 degrees. Using simple trigonometry and a guess of where her back was relative to her feet, her shadow on the trestle bed seems to make an angle of about ten degrees with the cross ties, which would mean an azimuth of the sun of 213 degrees - 10 degrees = 203 degrees. Using an online astronomical program from the US Naval Observatory, that would be at 2:19 pm. At 2:07 pm the azimuth of the sun would actually have been a little less than 200 degrees, well within the uncertainty of my observations (presumably the angle of the shadow is more like 13 degrees).

At about 1:01 pm, the sun would be due south, and so before 1pm the shadow would make an angle of more than 33 degrees with the cross ties, which seems quite implausible from the photo.

Ok I am pretty sure I understand what you are thinking but to make sure can you dumb this down a little [emoji16]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

 

[expatCanada]

Broken record here, but this document says they were killed on the same day ... FEB 13th. Whether you want to believe a court document, signed by a Judge or not is up to the each.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Delphi-13-Feb-2017-47&p=13298390#post13298390
Petition to Seal Autopsy Reports filed

Filed By:
State of Indiana


File Stamp:
03/28/2017

Order Issued

On March 28, 2017, State of Indiana, by Prosecuting Attorney Robert T. Ives, filed a Petition to seal the autopsy reports concerning Abigail Williams and Liberty German. The Court, being duly advised, FINDS as follows: 1) On February 13, 2017 Abigail Williams and Liberty German were killed just outside of Delphi in Carroll County, Indiana. 2) An investigation into these killings is ongoing. 3) No charges have been filed with connection to the killings. 4) The details related to the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German, if they remain confidential, make it easier for investigators to recognize a false confession as it is improbable for an innocent person to accurately describe the details of the deaths without personal knowledge. 5) Investigators are able to maintain a tactical advantage when speaking with a suspect if the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German are not made public. The Court, being duly advised, ORDERS as follows: State of Indiana has demonstrated by a preponderance of the evidence that public access or dissemination of the information contained in Ind. Code 36-2-14-18(a) would create significant risks of harm to the criminal investigation of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German. State of Indiana's Petition to Seal Autopsy Reports, filed March 28, 2017, is GRANTED. The Court ORDERS the Carroll County Coroner to PROHIBIT public inspection and copying the following information related to Ms. Abigail Williams or Ms. Liberty German: 1) The name, age, address, sex, and race of the deceased. 2) The address where the dead body was found, or if there is no address the location where the dead body was found and, if different, the address where the death occurred, or if there is no address the location where the death occurred. 3) The name of the agency to which the death was reported and the name of the person reporting the death. 4) The name of any public official or governmental employee present at the scene of the death and the name of the person certifying or pronouncing the death. 5) Information regarding an autopsy (requested or performed) limited to the date, the person who performed the autopsy, where the autopsy was performed, and a conclusion as to: a. the probable cause of death; b. the probable manner of death; and c. the probable mechanism of death. 6) The location to which the body was removed, the person determining the location to which the body was removed, and the authority under which the decision to remove the body was made. 7) The records required to be filed by a coroner under section 6 [IC 36-2-14-6] of this chapter and the verdict and the written report required under section 10 [IC 36-2-14-10] of this chapter. (Collectively the confidential autopsy information ) The confidential autopsy information shall remain confidential until further order of this Court. The Court shall enter further order if the Prosecuting Attorney notifies the Court that the investigation has concluded. The Court shall enter further order if any person demonstrates that access to the confidential autopsy information would not create a significant risk to the criminal investigation of the deaths, AND the public interest will be served by allowing access to the confidential autopsy information, per form. (Copy to State, Coroner 3/28/2017,HNC)

Judicial Officer:
Diener, Benjamin A.


Order Signed:
03/28/2017

.
BBM
100% Agree.

Might possibly even be waiting to get enough info to get a warrant for the suspect's dna, if dna was left at the site. I'd guess that if he's never been incarcerated, or arrested, then his dna is most likely not in the database, so he'd not be concerned about leaving dna. If they get a warrant for someone's dna, and it's not a match, then they're in a bit of situation. The public is let down. The assailant(s) know they're sniffing in the wrong direction.

Re; TOD. I don't know another way to word this, but, is it possible that one of the girls played dead, until he left, and lived until the following day? There would be a difference in the condition of the bodies, based on how long the other girl lived, if she tried moving to check on her friend after he left, etc...

 

[Deleted member 196796]

Ok I am pretty sure I understand what you are thinking but to make sure can you dumb this down a little [emoji16]

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

Knowing the general direction (north/south) of the bridge and the direction Abby is facing, look for the angle and length of Abby's shadow.

 

[expatCanada]

Well first you have to know North is not what is in front of your face or where you are facing. Let's start there. :scared:

Knowing the general direction (north/south) of the bridge and the direction Abby is facing, look for the angle and length of Abby's shadow.

 

[Brighty]

I'm posting this here because some have thought maybe the cases were connected. This Thurs. (5-4) at 10 pm central time, KWWL out of Waterloo, IA will have an interview with Lyric Cook's dad from prison. In the preview, the reporter asks him how he feels about so many people thinking his daughter's disappearance was drug related..of course we will have to watch to get the answer. I know LE ruled out the cases being connected but the dates of the cousin's disappearance and LG and AW being reversed numbers still just makes me wonder.

I followed the IA threads here as a lurker and have not decided if I think they could be connected, but I do wonder how LE can rule out connection since it seems neither case is solved at this point. I realize LE probably shared details of both cases with each other that are not public, but some murderers do change the way they do things so not sure how a connection can truly be ruled out at this point.

 

[curiousjo]

For Abby it was on the same road that goes under the south end of the bridge, less than a mile.

Interesting! So there is a road under south end of bridge, where a car could have been parked.

 

[Jethro4WS]

I followed the IA threads here as a lurker and have not decided if I think they could be connected, but I do wonder how LE can rule out connection since it seems neither case is solved at this point. I realize LE probably shared details of both cases with each other that are not public, but some murderers do change the way they do things so not sure how a connection can truly be ruled out at this point.

Welcome to Websleuths!

 

[cluciano63]

The dates thing as far as being connected to the Iowa girls does not work for me as other than a coincidence. The Delphi girls probably did not make, much less announce their plans for the 13th much in advance. Whoever killed these girls in IN either "got lucky" in stumbling across young victims or knew them to some degree. Jmo

 

[expatCanada]

Night all. Remember ... wind and elevation ... wait ... that was Physics. Never mind.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Yes but they may have other information from the rest of the video imo.

So on the bit we haven't seen he may only have his right hand in his pocket? Is that what you mean?

 

[CoreyRocks]

Maybe ... just maybe (speculation alert) the driver and girls went into town for lunch first before the drop off to the bridge. I'm always about eating!

ETA: more speculation: MSM says: girls dropped off at 1:00 pm, but Gray Hughes (with his 'sources') insists 1:45. Lunch, delayed, etc???? Just guessing and NO facts.

Maybe Gray should become a verified insider.

If more than BG involved, some speculated a girl, maybe she is the one who lured the girls to the bridge under a guise of some sort. Just something that I have been mulling over. Moo.

 

[samsmom]

Well first you have to know North is not what is in front of your face or where you are facing. Let's start there. :scared:

I have to remind myself about that wherever I am - thanks!

 

[Shiressleuth]

It's obvious from the shadows that the picture was taken around 2:07pm. From Google Maps the bridge runs at an azimuth of about 123 degrees (you could use a protractor). So the cross ties run at about 90 degrees plus that, or 213 degrees. Using simple trigonometry and a guess of where her back was relative to her feet, her shadow on the trestle bed seems to make an angle of about ten degrees with the cross ties, which would mean an azimuth of the sun of 213 degrees - 10 degrees = 203 degrees. Using an online astronomical program from the US Naval Observatory, that would be at 2:19 pm. At 2:07 pm the azimuth of the sun would actually have been a little less than 200 degrees, well within the uncertainty of my observations (presumably the angle of the shadow is more like 13 degrees).

At about 1:01 pm, the sun would be due south, and so before 1pm the shadow would make an angle of more than 33 degrees with the cross ties, which seems quite implausible from the photo.

Interesting. What about BG shadow time?

 

[Falling Down]

Interesting! So there is a road under south end of bridge, where a car could have been parked.

Not sure about a vehicle, but yes there is a road at the SE end, which becomes a driveway for a private residence.

 

[samsmom]

Maybe Gray should become a verified insider.

If more than BG involved, some speculated a girl, maybe she is the one who lured the girls to the bridge under a guise of some sort. Just something that I have been mulling over. Moo.

Speaking of GH, I wish that LE would release the original original photo from video showing BG at the precise distance. There are many detail-oriented WS'ers that have talent in inspecting photos and enhancing them, prolly just as good as what LE/FBI has done with this sorry pic of BG.

Also, does anyone know of a local investigative reporter-type person that has been following the case? An invitation to WS in an email might be handy. I think there was a female reporter that has been covering the story. We actually have had reporters here on WS getting good info to us with cases in the past.
All of this rambling is IMO.

 

[HockeyMom330]

Maybe ... just maybe (speculation alert) the driver and girls went into town for lunch first before the drop off to the bridge. I'm always about eating!

ETA: more speculation: MSM says: girls dropped off at 1:00 pm, but Gray Hughes (with his 'sources') insists 1:45. Lunch, delayed, etc???? Just guessing and NO facts.

I've always felt that the 1:00pm drop off time seemed 'off' and tend to think that 1:45pm would be closer to accurate only because of the 2:07pm snapchat photo which pinpoints Abby's location on the bridge. It wouldn't take healthy, athletic girls over an hour to make that short walk, and there doesn't seem to be much else to do in the area to take up time. Besides, wouldn't there have been a lot more photos if the girls had been hiking for over an hour? I feel like their path intersected with BG not too long after they had arrived, and sadly they were likely dead before their ride returned to pick them up.

 

[Falling Down]

The dates thing as far as being connected to the Iowa girls does not work for me as other than a coincidence. The Delphi girls probably did not make, much less announce their plans for the 13th much in advance. Whoever killed these girls in IN either "got lucky" in stumbling across young victims or knew them to some degree. Jmo

MOO is certain variables all aligned that day, although I do not believe the girls were targeted before that day. JMO.

Whether the date or the fact it was the day before Valentine's Day has any significance, is speculative but interests me.

 

[EllieBee]

Are you beating a dead horse, or are you flogging it? Why have you ended your relationship with said horse? Wouldn't you rather push water uphill with a rake? Let's have a separate thread for idioms.

*love*
*dies*
:laughing:

 

[Shiressleuth]

Interesting! So there is a road under south end of bridge, where a car could have been parked.

Yes there is. The road eventually leads to a private drive and a house.

 

[coastal]

It's obvious from the shadows that the picture was taken around 2:07pm. From Google Maps the bridge runs at an azimuth of about 123 degrees (you could use a protractor). So the cross ties run at about 90 degrees plus that, or 213 degrees. Using simple trigonometry and a guess of where her back was relative to her feet, her shadow on the trestle bed seems to make an angle of about ten degrees with the cross ties, which would mean an azimuth of the sun of 213 degrees - 10 degrees = 203 degrees. Using an online astronomical program from the US Naval Observatory, that would be at 2:19 pm. At 2:07 pm the azimuth of the sun would actually have been a little less than 200 degrees, well within the uncertainty of my observations (presumably the angle of the shadow is more like 13 degrees).

At about 1:01 pm, the sun would be due south, and so before 1pm the shadow would make an angle of more than 33 degrees with the cross ties, which seems quite implausible from the photo.

Gruffin, thank you for this post! It is the only example of useful trigonometry I have ever seen.

I'll be damned.