IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #55

[Maplesyrup]

Perhaps he cut himself during the attack and they knew it was his right hand. LE may simply mean to be aware of someone trying to hide their right hand...maybe in their pocket. IMO

Well I guess that means something to LE but it means nothing to me. So sometimes his right hand is in his pocket and sometimes it isn't depending what we see and which image we look at and whether we see a watch or not. I still cannot see the significance unless the frame we do not see shows him pulling out a weapon. That's the pic I would want to see.

 

[rsd1200]

Broken record here, but this document says they were killed on the same day ... FEB 13th. Whether you want to believe a court document, signed by a Judge or not is up to the each.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Delphi-13-Feb-2017-47&p=13298390#post13298390
Petition to Seal Autopsy Reports filed

Filed By:
State of Indiana


File Stamp:
03/28/2017

Order Issued

On March 28, 2017, State of Indiana, by Prosecuting Attorney Robert T. Ives, filed a Petition to seal the autopsy reports concerning Abigail Williams and Liberty German. The Court, being duly advised, FINDS as follows: 1) On February 13, 2017 Abigail Williams and Liberty German were killed just outside of Delphi in Carroll County, Indiana. 2) An investigation into these killings is ongoing. 3) No charges have been filed with connection to the killings. 4) The details related to the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German, if they remain confidential, make it easier for investigators to recognize a false confession as it is improbable for an innocent person to accurately describe the details of the deaths without personal knowledge. 5) Investigators are able to maintain a tactical advantage when speaking with a suspect if the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German are not made public. The Court, being duly advised, ORDERS as follows: State of Indiana has demonstrated by a preponderance of the evidence that public access or dissemination of the information contained in Ind. Code 36-2-14-18(a) would create significant risks of harm to the criminal investigation of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German. State of Indiana's Petition to Seal Autopsy Reports, filed March 28, 2017, is GRANTED. The Court ORDERS the Carroll County Coroner to PROHIBIT public inspection and copying the following information related to Ms. Abigail Williams or Ms. Liberty German: 1) The name, age, address, sex, and race of the deceased. 2) The address where the dead body was found, or if there is no address the location where the dead body was found and, if different, the address where the death occurred, or if there is no address the location where the death occurred. 3) The name of the agency to which the death was reported and the name of the person reporting the death. 4) The name of any public official or governmental employee present at the scene of the death and the name of the person certifying or pronouncing the death. 5) Information regarding an autopsy (requested or performed) limited to the date, the person who performed the autopsy, where the autopsy was performed, and a conclusion as to: a. the probable cause of death; b. the probable manner of death; and c. the probable mechanism of death. 6) The location to which the body was removed, the person determining the location to which the body was removed, and the authority under which the decision to remove the body was made. 7) The records required to be filed by a coroner under section 6 [IC 36-2-14-6] of this chapter and the verdict and the written report required under section 10 [IC 36-2-14-10] of this chapter. (Collectively the confidential autopsy information ) The confidential autopsy information shall remain confidential until further order of this Court. The Court shall enter further order if the Prosecuting Attorney notifies the Court that the investigation has concluded. The Court shall enter further order if any person demonstrates that access to the confidential autopsy information would not create a significant risk to the criminal investigation of the deaths, AND the public interest will be served by allowing access to the confidential autopsy information, per form. (Copy to State, Coroner 3/28/2017,HNC)

Judicial Officer:
Diener, Benjamin A.


Order Signed:
03/28/2017

Thank you. I saw that OP had questioned about one of the girls actually passing on a different date. I was referring to that question, as to how it could happen. I'd not seen the court document yet. They found them on the 14th, (unless there's more on that phone that gives them a timeline, which is possible), I'm withholding judgement on TOD b/c we don't have a coroner's report, nor an autopsy, officially stating anything. Things can get a little jumbled when LE, and other powers that be, wants to keep a case closed to the public. I'll wait for the coroner report and autopsy. It could be the 13th. I'm just not sold.

 

[Hazelnutty]

If one or both of the girls knew him very well, why wouldn't they have greeted him by name or shouted his name at some point during the attack?

I don't think so. Especially if they didn't expect to see this person. Or didn't want to see this person. Sometimes you see people you really don't want to see and hope you blend into the background. Just speaking to them is embarrassing, the wind just falls out your sails.

For instance, as an example, a relative you only see for holidays or a step- person you may encounter more frequently, but avoid like the plague when you can. You only speak to them bc you feel like you are required. Maybe a secretly abusive family- person who embarrasses you to No end. You may cry No, stop, please don't hurt me, but I don't feel like they would shout their name or greet them by name.


Jmo- nothing more implied.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320A using Tapatalk

 

[Spearmint]

I understand the idea that she videoed him because they felt uneasy about him. When I was young a friend and I went on a road trip. On one highway there was little traffic and a car with a man in it would speed up and tailgate us a while and then pass, but then would back off or pull over so we would have to pass him again. We became alarmed at his behavior and decided he wanted to run us off the road and was waiting until there were no cars in sight. It seemed to us like every time he got right behind us there was a car so he was waiting for there to be no one around. We talked about how to make sure if he did something to us at least LE could catch him so I wrote his license plate number in the dust under the visor after licking my finger to make sure it would be easy to see. We will never know if he intended us harm because we came to an Interstate and just got on and he kept going. For some reason though we both felt strongly he meant us harm, and we wanted to leave evidence behind about him. I have no idea why we were so scared of that man, or why we felt the need to leave clues as to who he was but later we felt pretty silly about the whole thing.

You were not silly; you were wise. Those instincts are primitive and innate -- part of our survival mechanism. All girls and women would be wise to hone and heed them.

 

[Deleted member 196796]

If one or both of the girls knew him very well, why wouldn't they have greeted him by name or shouted his name at some point during the attack?

Good point. At least with the content of the audio in possession would give some sort of insight to LE if BG was an acquaintance or even a previous encounter took place that day, or a total stranger. This knowledge would be close hold.

 

[kat913]

The Petition to Seal is a legal document supported by facts. Facts are considered to be factual. If the discussion breaks down to whether a legal document is incorrect then how do we know both girls are dead?

If not all information supports the facts, rather than throw out the facts, then why doesn't all information support the facts?

As for the obituary -
- sometimes families use the date found because up until then the person was alive in their hopes and heart.
- the date Abby's obituary was posted was Feb 17. It's highly possible the autopsy hadn't been completed yet.

MOO


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

This may have already been mentioned but maybe the families wanted seperate days of mourning.

 

[Burnt Toast]

If one or both of the girls knew him very well, why wouldn't they have greeted him by name or shouted his name at some point during the attack?

i personally can not see someone using a name during an attack. we use names to be polite.

 

[Burnt Toast]

Perhaps he cut himself during the attack and they knew it was his right hand. LE may simply mean to be aware of someone trying to hide their right hand...maybe in their pocket. IMO

do you have a link to where LE talks about a right hand?

 

[Maxine2U]

I understand the idea that she videoed him because they felt uneasy about him. When I was young a friend and I went on a road trip. On one highway there was little traffic and a car with a man in it would speed up and tailgate us a while and then pass, but then would back off or pull over so we would have to pass him again. We became alarmed at his behavior and decided he wanted to run us off the road and was waiting until there were no cars in sight. It seemed to us like every time he got right behind us there was a car so he was waiting for there to be no one around. We talked about how to make sure if he did something to us at least LE could catch him so I wrote his license plate number in the dust under the visor after licking my finger to make sure it would be easy to see. We will never know if he intended us harm because we came to an Interstate and just got on and he kept going. For some reason though we both felt strongly he meant us harm, and we wanted to leave evidence behind about him. I have no idea why we were so scared of that man, or why we felt the need to leave clues as to who he was but later we felt pretty silly about the whole thing.

Brighty, I too had a similar experience way back in the 80's as a teenager. My friend and I were driving on the interstate and this creep kept driving next to us and making gestures, he even had a piece of paper with something written on it. We were 16 and I'd say this guy was in his late 20's. We felt fairly safe because we were on the interstate, but it was really just a creepy experience. Apparently he did that enough to where he just had a piece of paper sitting there with those words on it. For a long time after I was on the lookout for news of any rapes or murders around where that was.

 

[Jax49]

do you have a link to where LE talks about a right hand?

FromGermany linked it earlier.

http://www.jconline.com/story/opini.../bangert-clue-hero-delphi-homicides/98254002/

The way Carter, the ISP superintendent, laid it out, the community shouldn’t hold back.

“Is it a family member? Is it a neighbor? Is it an acquaintance? Is it an associate?” Carter asked, running down a check list of things to weigh. “Or maybe that one guy that was over at that one place that was just kind of not right. Maybe it’s his jeans. Maybe it’s his jacket or sweatshirt. Maybe it’s his shirt tail. Maybe it’s his posture. Maybe it’s the right hand in his pocket.”

bbm

 

[Etilema]

Perhaps he cut himself during the attack and they knew it was his right hand. LE may simply mean to be aware of someone trying to hide their right hand...maybe in their pocket. IMO

FromGermany linked it earlier.

http://www.jconline.com/story/opini.../bangert-clue-hero-delphi-homicides/98254002/



[/B]bbm

I interpreted this to refer to a habit of keeping the right hand in the pocket. Because even if they had reason to believe he may have been injured, how could they possibly know it would have been in the right hand?

JMO


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[Maplesyrup]

Well, if he cut himself and left HIS bloody right hand print [or thumb or finger prints] on them or their clothing, for example. Or maybe his footprints leaving the scene with blood dripping on the ground on the right hand side of his foot tracks. His blood type would not match theirs. If his DNA is not on file, there would be no match for it. IMO

I interpreted this to refer to a habit of keeping the right hand in the pocket. Because even if they had reason to believe he may have been injured, how could they possibly know it would have been in the right hand?

JMO


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[tomvansac]

I once counseled a 19 year-old woman who was in attendance at a homicide. It occurred at her mother and stepfather’s house. Both parents were complicit in attempting to cover up evidence. After both the young woman and her mother were held on other minor charges for extended periods of time in jail, the young woman told the DA everything she saw and knew. My advice to her was to give up all info, because if she didn’t, she would have to live her life looking over her shoulder constantly, in case the murderer decided to kill her too. After all, he might decide down the road that she was a possible threat to his freedom that he wanted to eliminate too. Fortunately, the murderer is doing LWOP in California and this young woman is safe and free.
Given the level of done against LG and AW, anyone who might know the murderer should think long and hard about how confident they could be of living out a natural life, since whatever they happen to know of him, could very well put them in the same precarious position as my young friend. Just know, that is better to live free with having told the truth then to die because you covered for a murderer and he needed extra insurance.

 

[cluciano63]

Good point. At least with the content of the audio in possession would give some sort of insight to LE if BG was an acquaintance or even a previous encounter took place that day, or a total stranger. This knowledge would be close hold.

If the girls indicated they knew him, I can't see why the billboards would go up coast to coast. I think their worlds were pretty limited, geographically.

 

[No it's not]

I once counseled a 19 year-old woman who was in attendance at a homicide. It occurred at her mother and stepfather’s house. Both parents were complicit in attempting to cover up evidence. After both the young woman and her mother were held on other minor charges for extended periods of time in jail, the young woman told the DA everything she saw and knew. My advice to her was to give up all info, because if she didn’t, she would have to live her life looking over her shoulder constantly, in case the murderer decided to kill her too. After all, he might decide down the road that she was a possible threat to his freedom that he wanted to eliminate too. Fortunately, the murderer is doing LWOP in California and this young woman is safe and free.
Given the level of done against LG and AW, anyone who might know the murderer should think long and hard about how confident they could be of living out a natural life, since whatever they happen to know of him, could very well put them in the same precarious position as my young friend. Just know, that is better to live free with having told the truth then to die because you covered for a murderer and he needed extra insurance.

This!

-Nin

 

[Spiritecho]

Very short clip with Libby's mom

[video=youtube;RHmw6tgNwVU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHmw6tgNwVU[/video]

Just heartbreaking, they need to catch this SOB!

....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHmw6tgNwVU

 

[mpnola]

Well, if he cut himself and left HIS bloody right hand print [or thumb or finger prints] on them or their clothing, for example. Or maybe his footprints leaving the scene with blood dripping on the ground on the right hand side of his foot tracks. His blood type would not match theirs. If his DNA is not on file, there would be no match for it. IMO

I honestly think they were just picking out random things from the pics they showed us. If he was cut, they would have massive DNA. And fingerprints. And I think they would say "If you notice anyone with a cut right hand, please notify us. We believe his right hand was injured in the crime". And if he had a missing finger or a tattoo or a scar.... they would say that! Why would they be so incredibly cryptic when trying to identify someone who actually has strong identifying features? They wouldn't, in my opinion. So the jacket, the jeans, the hand in the pocket are all just general observations of that pic they have and have shared. I don't think it was a secret message.

 

[Maplesyrup]

I was replying to how LE could know if someone had cut their right hand. I don't think anything is cryptic. IMO

I honestly think they were just picking out random things from the pics they showed us. If he was cut, they would have massive DNA. And fingerprints. And I think they would say "If you notice anyone with a cut right hand, please notify us. We believe his right hand was injured in the crime". And if he had a missing finger or a tattoo or a scar.... they would say that! Why would they be so incredibly cryptic when trying to identify someone who actually has strong identifying features? They wouldn't, in my opinion. So the jacket, the jeans, the hand in the pocket are all just general observations of that pic they have and have shared. I don't think it was a secret message.

 

[crhedBngr]

I just re-sent my tip because of the comments about the right hand. My POI has a scar on his right hand and walks with a limp. If it is him he has previous related charges but probably didn't want to leave witnesses this time because he served prison time several years ago. He is the reason I joined this sight. I emailed the Sheriffs Office and asked if he has been checked out. I hope to get at least a yes or no answer. As soon as I first saw the BG picture in the news I knew I had to send in my information. If I hear back I will let you know.

Excellent! Thank you for doing so.

:clap:
:tyou:

 

[Yvettea]

Very short clip with Libby's mom

[video=youtube;RHmw6tgNwVU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHmw6tgNwVU[/video]

Just heartbreaking, they need to catch this SOB!

....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHmw6tgNwVU

That night when they called off the search I knew something was very, very bad wrong? Has anyone heard this before? These are the mothers words.