IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #60

[Eileen730]

LE has called off searches before this, to resume at first light. Searching in the dark is dangerous and generally unproductive. They could not know for the girls had not left the area and gone elsewhere. And in this case, I feel 100% sure it was too late to save them even by 3-4pm. Jmo

Doesn't matter if it was to late.
They we're reported missing.
Not runaway.


Don't assume it's too late.

 

[Ember123]

That was my mistake then, my apologies. I think the post to which you replied was in reference to this specific interview, and various reasons why the paternal grandfather indicated the family didn't immediately expect foul play, so I just added some of my thoughts in reply to your post.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...er-one-murdered-Indiana-teens-speaks-out.html

My orig post re a dominant fam member made no link to this GF.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Goodness, evidence is not required to tell if a murder has taken place, other than the body of the victim. And not all sexual crimes leave DNA behind. Even if they do, it only helps if they can match it to a suspect.

I was answering statements that said no evidence existed. I believe evidence is required to determine homicide e.g. in the form of a cause of death and autopsy report. The body is not evidence of homicide of itself IMO.

 

[Jax49]

I think you may have. I'm talking about thr fact they were found "upstream from the bridge" and what is meant by that . Here it could mean they searched initially downstream from the north end which crosses the Creek because accident would be the first thought I.e. falling off bridge into the creek and being taken downstream with the current. That is the opposite of where they were eventually found. My point is they were found downstream of the South end of the bridge - I.e. north of the south end of the bridge, which is actually therefore downstream of the south end. Now I'm confusing myself so don't worry.

I think I got it, but they were found east of the entire bridge, upstream that is. moo

 

[cluciano63]

I was answering statements that said no evidence existed. I believe evidence is required to determine homicide e.g. in the form of a cause of death and autopsy report. The body is not evidence of homicide of itself IMO.

Well, it can be, i.e if there are bullet wounds and no gun, they would know it was a murder just by seeing a body. As an example.

 

[MistyWaters]

Why would they not kill the person who betrayed them rather than their kids?

Gosh, why the underworld does what it does, logic obviously isn't applied. But to the dark side of humanity, I'd imagine the approach of inflicting fear and creating grief in order to intimidate has a scatter effect that spreads to others. To many people, it's a fact that the lives of their children are worth far more than their own.

In an example of a person who has already "snitched", if they are murdered the evidence stands because their sworn statements can still be used in court. Add the element of fear and intimidation and might they revoke it? Suddenly memories aren't so clear and confusion prevails? Possibly.

 

[Shiressleuth]

I think only in hindsight has the focus become only the area where the bodies were discovered. The Delphi trail includes a link into the town of Delphi and as I recall, the total length of it is 10 miles long. We also know the Snapchat photo put Abby on the bridge at 2:07 and they were to be picked up at 3:00 or 3:30pm. So I imagine it was also considered that they left the bridge area, intending to call their ride "pick us up at (another location) instead" which opens a lot of possibilities that they could have walked to in less than an hour, including the town of Delphi.

That was not the case here. The pick up point and time was pre set. They only had a couple of hours and were not going to do a 10 mile hike. They went to take pics that's all.

 

[Sapere aude]

Struggles and yelling would not be heard easily from the bridge. I also think that BG knew that and that if he did this below the bridge that sound would carry right up. But across the creek, behind the bank and the trees, the creak itself would block most sounds.

JMO

Jep, I agree. But if noise won't be heard on the trail from the downside Crime Scene, what would that mean for the timespan (because some assume only half an hour due to hikers at 3:00 pm) of the murderer.

 

[margarita25]

IMO I would wonder about noises from water and wind muffling any sounds. One of my friends in town, on a windy day, jumped out of his truck on a windy day in full view of a deer and circled a long ways around and snuck up and grabbed it by the tail!! The deer never heard him. Since that story, I noticed animals are very tense on windy days, even the bigger animals. Wind can muddle sounds. BTW, off topic, I also read that the toughest night is a full moon night for many animals like mice, rabbits...and owls love the full moon nights. IMO I do think he was hunting, he appears in pic looking head on, next shot averting his eyes...covert, sneaky. I think he watched them prior. I think it was very much planned.

What was the moon phase on the 13th/14th?

 

[MistyWaters]

I was answering statements that said no evidence existed. I believe evidence is required to determine homicide e.g. in the form of a cause of death and autopsy report. The body is not evidence of homicide of itself IMO.

When the autopsy is conducted, the Coroner or medical examiner attempts to determine the cause and manner of death. In this case the manner of death was ruled a homicide, although the cause hasn't been released to the public.

Therefore the bodies revealed supportive medical evidence in order to reach that conclusion. That becomes the starting point of LEs investigation.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Well, it can be, i.e if there are bullet wounds and no gun, they would know it was a murder just by seeing a body. As an example.

Not necessarily. It could be a suicide pact and the second person changed their mind and did a runner with the weapon.

 

[MistyWaters]

That was not the case here. The pick up point and time was pre set. They only had a couple of hours and were not going to do a 10 mile hike. They went to take pics that's all.

Teens are always 100% predictable? My point was when they weren't at the location ready to be picked up, that's an example of possibilities that may have arose as opposed an instant belief that "omg they've been murdered!". We live in a world that's not always so black and white.

 

[Justice101]

When the autopsy is conducted, the Coroner or medical examiner attempts to determine the cause and manner of death. In this case the manner of death was ruled a homicide, although the cause hasn't been released to the public.

Therefore the bodies revealed supportive medical evidence in order to reach that conclusion. That becomes the starting point of LEs investigation.

Yes, that mean not suicide, accident or medical causes. There is either strangulation injuries, bullet or stab wound, drowning and dragging up onto the bank, etc.

 

[Area52]

Shiressleuth ....I think you are confusing the definition of the word evidence in the context of forensics as opposed to evidence of a homocide.

 

[Jethro4WS]

What was the moon phase on the 13th/14th?

The full moon was on February 10th. On the night of the 13th the moon was around 94%.

 

[SomeoneElse333]

Why would they not kill the person who betrayed them rather than their kids?

I'm not keen on the theory that this is a bigger conspiracy or a hit job. Occam's razor. But to answer your question, one thing that comes to mind is that some people care more for their family members than they do themselves. A parent I think would jump in the path of anything to save their kids. Somebody going after your kid send an incredibly impactful message.

And if we're thinking about theories like this, it could be that BG was sent to do *something* to the girls to send a message to somebody else, and perhaps things went too far.

The above is just my opinion.

 

[Sapere aude]

I think they DO HAVE DNA... but no match in the state or national DNA database records.

I agree. I reckon, they have DNA. Hairs, dandruffs, skin, when victims were scratching. It would surprise me, if there was no DNA left. The problem could be, DNA isn´t such a crucial evidence, because e.g. perp may be one of the searcher.

 

[SomeoneElse333]

BBM

I'm not a screamer either, and haven't been since I was a toddler. When I was 13, I woke up about 5 am to find a drunken stranger sitting on my bed; I sat there and talked to him for an hour before I was able to get past him and go to wake my mother (we lived in a duplex at the time and he was there to kill his ex-wife who lived upstairs), I also went through rapes at 14, 16 and 18, and didn't scream during any of them either in spite of the bruises, etc. I ended up with. I've been really lucky that none of them had planned to kill me because I was about Abby's size and wasn't much of a fighter. I think they may have been like me and thought they should save their energy for trying to get away since there wasn't likely to be anyone within hearing distance of them anyway.

MOO

Oh my. That hurts to the core. I'm so sorry.

The above is just my opinion.

 

[iscaremyself]

I agree. I reckon, they have DNA. Hairs, dandruffs, skin, when victims were scratching. It would surprise me, if there was no DNA left. The problem could be, DNA isn´t such a crucial evidence, because e.g. perp may be one of the searcher.

or relative, or out of uniform police officer...hopefully every alibi of every male in that small town has been verified.
population 3000 if I recall correctly

 

[Shiressleuth]

Teens are always 100% predictable? My point was when they weren't at the location ready to be picked up, that's an example of possibilities that may have arose as opposed an instant belief that "omg they've been murdered!". We live in a world that's not always so black and white.

Mine were always there for pick up . If they were not, when would it be reasonable to be worried? This was before mobiles so there was no easy way of contact. I would be worried after half an hour and be looking for a nearby phone box. After each hour even more so. I always knew where they were until they were 16. The family seemed the same in this case, calling police after a couple of hours. They were worried, these were good girls AFAICS or they would not have called police in the first place IMO.