IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #60

[Brighty]

These searchers were not just volunteers but experienced fire personnel and LE. It was coordinated by LE till midnight and continued after midnight unofficially I understand.

I am pretty sure for those searchers that were employees there are likely laws that regulate how long they can officially work. I doubt an area like that has enough LEO and fire employees to just replace them all with a different bunch for each shift for something that is ongoing and no one at the time knew for how long. Officially ending the search yet many continued to search anyway so that was likely to get around laws about total hours worked/overtime,things like that.

 

[Brighty]

Two young girls go missing - their phones ping for a couple of hours but they cannot be found. If they have never done this before and there has been no argument or reason to explain it - does that alone not indicate foul play? Is it because of the age? If they were younger would it have made a difference whether the search continued?

I think one of the flaws in thinking when teens go missing is family and LEO tend to think they are at someone's house or decided to go out of town or run away. I think in the beginning teens missing should be treated the same as when younger children are missing until there is proof they ran away or got sidetracked. I think missing teens often fall through the cracks.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Shiressleuth ....I think you are confusing the definition of the word evidence in the context of forensics as opposed to evidence of a homocide.

No, I know what evidence is. Facts that can convict in a court of law. Until a post mortem is performed it will be a sudden or suspicious death with a suspicion of murder only. The PM may confirm that suspicion or not. E.g.if water was present in the lungs and they had been shot, for example. Or they had head injuries and water in the lungs or positive toxicology reports. Many things constitute evidence including the audio tape.

 

[MistyWaters]

The full moon was on February 10th. On the night of the 13th the moon was around 94%.

Clear nighttime sky or cloud cover, do you know? I've noticed comments about the moon and tempature, but not about whether the night sky was overcast or not.

 

[Shiressleuth]

I am pretty sure for those searchers that were employees there are likely laws that regulate how long they can officially work. I doubt an area like that has enough LEO and fire employees to just replace them all with a different bunch for each shift for something that is ongoing and no one at the time knew for how long. Officially ending the search yet many continued to search anyway so that was likely to get around laws about total hours worked/overtime,things like that.

Yes that pprobably happened. in a small town all the off duty would report to search unpaid especially where 2 young local girls are involved, as in this case.

 

[Sapere aude]

I´m dealing with another question. Watch the following report on February the 13th. Search was ongoing and Abby´s mother as well as Libbys grandfather were sharing information with the interviewer.

[video=youtube;Kop2LjEGm_8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kop2LjEGm_8[/video]

At Min 1:18 Libby´s grandfather is speaking, that the girls cell phone has been pinging around town here. I don´t understand what does that mean (the pinging around could be determined either by network location data (you´ve to contact your telecommunication provider to get that data) or by smart phone GPS data (e.g. because you have activated an App using GPS geo location data).

Most of the children have activated Apps using geo location data (e.g. "Myphone" will find your Iphone, if it get stolen).

My question is, whether there is any information or not, that Libby has activated her geo location.
If it has been activated, everyone (knowing her e.g. apple ID and password) could track her (my son is locating me every time, when I´ve meetings and due to that I´m not answering my phone).

 

[Sapere aude]

There were not only searchers from Delphi. They came also from around Delphi for support.

 

[MistyWaters]

No, I know what evidence is. Facts that can convict in a court of law. Until a post mortem is performed it will be a sudden or suspicious death with a suspicion of murder only. The PM may confirm that suspicion or not. E.g.if water was present in the lungs and they had been shot, for example. Or they had head injuries and water in the lungs or positive toxicology reports. Many things constitute evidence including the audio tape.

The words Autopsy and Post Mortem are interchangeable. The Autopsy is already completed and the court has agreed to seal it.

Maybe this is helpful?

What is an Autopsy?

"An autopsy (also known as a post-mortem examination or necropsy) is the examination of the body of a dead person and is performed primarily to determine the cause of death, to identify or characterize the extent of disease states that the person may have had, or to determine whether a particular medical or surgical treatment has been effective. Autopsies are performed by pathologists, medical doctors who have received specialty training in the diagnosis of diseases by the examination of body fluids and tissues. In academic institutions, autopsies sometimes are also requested for teaching and research purposes. Forensic autopsies have legal implications and are performed to determine if death was an accident, homicide, suicide, or a natural event. The word autopsy is derived from the Greek word autopsia: "to see with one's own eyes."
http://www.medicinenet.com/autopsy/article.htm


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[Shiressleuth]

Teens are always 100% predictable? My point was when they weren't at the location ready to be picked up, that's an example of possibilities that may have arose as opposed an instant belief that "omg they've been murdered!". We live in a world that's not always so black and white.

We live in a world where innocent kids are murdered and murderers get away with it. First 24 hours being crucial iMO.

 

[Burnt Toast]

I was answering statements that said no evidence existed. I believe evidence is required to determine homicide e.g. in the form of a cause of death and autopsy report. The body is not evidence of homicide of itself IMO.

if both girls were strangled it would have to be homicide. if both girls were stabbed or shot in the back it would have to homicide. there are some ways to die that you could not possible do yourself.

 

[liltexans]

I see nothing whatsoever that raises red flags in the grandfathers interview with the media. The grandfather spoke to the media and attempted to describe various possibilities to explain the girls disappearance but that did not make him a spokesperson. For one thing, Libby didn't live with him.

Secondly it appears LE had absolutely no evidence that first evening to indicate foul play. Searches are simply not very effective in the darkness and people need their sleep to function. That they got a few hours sleep so they can be prepared to begin again the next morning is how things work in smaller centres with limited resources.

Further to that, in my world people and especially teenagers are not always 100% responsible all the time and are not where they're supposed to be. What he describes is very commonly the thoughts of the family to rationalize an unexplainable absence. "Maybe, maybe, maybe this or that......". But unless there is evidence of foul play, it would be downright wierd for family members to presume the girls were victims of homicide. This is the very same reason that families of missing children still maintain hope for years and even decades that the missing loved one will be found alive. MOO

Where is the link stating that Libby didn't live with her grandparents? This is the first I've heard that.

 

[Shiressleuth]

The words Autopsy and Post Mortem are interchangeable. The Autopsy is already completed and the court has agreed to seal it.

Maybe this is helpful?

What is an Autopsy?

"An autopsy (also known as a post-mortem examination or necropsy) is the examination of the body of a dead person and is performed primarily to determine the cause of death, to identify or characterize the extent of disease states that the person may have had, or to determine whether a particular medical or surgical treatment has been effective. Autopsies are performed by pathologists, medical doctors who have received specialty training in the diagnosis of diseases by the examination of body fluids and tissues. In academic institutions, autopsies sometimes are also requested for teaching and research purposes. Forensic autopsies have legal implications and are performed to determine if death was an accident, homicide, suicide, or a natural event. The word autopsy is derived from the Greek word autopsia: "to see with one's own eyes."
http://www.medicinenet.com/autopsy/article.htm


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Thanks, misty it does.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Where is the link stating that Libby didn't live with her grandparents? This is the first I've heard that.

There are two sets of GP. She lived with one set in Delphi is what I took this to mean.

 

[liltexans]

There are two sets of GP. She lived with one set in Delphi is what I took this to mean.

Is there a link to the interview? I have only seen Mike Patty give public statements. Has another grandfather of Libby's made a statement to the media?

 

[Shiressleuth]

if both girls were strangled it would have to be homicide. if both girls were stabbed or shot in the back it would have to homicide. there are some ways to die that you could not possible do yourself.

Indeed but it takes the opinion of a professional to confirm the suspicion. Shot in the back could still be accidental (hunting accident) .Strangulation can be accidental as in sex game gone wrong. ( not talking about this case )

 

[Shiressleuth]

Is there a link to the interview? I have only seen Mike Patty give public statements. Has another grandfather of Libby's made a statement to the media?

The one with the surname Bridge? Or am I mixing up GPs?

 

[liltexans]

The one with the surname Bridge? Or am I mixing up GPs?

There is a grandfather with that surname. I must have missed his public statements or I have forgotten them, which is possible after all the interviews I have read and watched for this case.

If anyone has a link, please post it.

 

[MistyWaters]

Where is the link stating that Libby didn't live with her grandparents? This is the first I've heard that.

Libby had two sets of grandparents.

The one who spoke in this interview lived nearby but Libby lived with her maternal grandparents.

Grandfather of One of Murdered Indiana Teens Speaks Out
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...er-one-murdered-Indiana-teens-speaks-out.html

 

[MistyWaters]

Thanks, misty it does.

You're welcome!

 

[LaneGirl]

Legal eagles can correct me if I'm wrong but homicide just means the killing of a person by another person.

Once that is established then is it murder, accidental, self defense, capital punishment etc. comes into play.