IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

[mpnola]

A gun was pointed at me once. I froze. Gave her my purse. Screamed ltr. I think I screamed after she left in her vehicle. That's how I remember it, because as she walked away I remember that I followed a few steps and said mildly, 'give me my purse back.' But she was in a van and I was standing there wondering if she was going to run me over. Long story to say I FROZE. God spared me.


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Exactly! I am amazed at the amount of superheros that think they would have run and left behind a friend and dodged every speeding bullet that was shot at them. Because 95% of us would comply when we are faced with a gun in our backs. And we wouldn't leave a loved one behind. And furthermore, we would not run just because someone was kind of sketching us out. How many times have you walked down the street and someone ran away because you were approaching? It has happened to me zero times. Why in the world is it talked about like their behavior was odd? The way the reacted is the NORM! Only in "superhero head mode" is there a different reaction. It isn't reality. So just quit. Oh. And they were 13......

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[Blondie in Spokane]

okay,

so I don't think this miserable sad sack of bug brains shot the girls, because gunshots are loud and sex killers like to strangle or bludgeon or both... so theres that, shooting is too quick and ruins the joy they feel from the suffering and pain of their victim,

so he probably corralled them with it, but I doubt he used it because they would be dragging the water for the murder weapon, so i feel like the girls were strangled and the whatever they were strangled with was left with the girls.

there is no way in my mind that drove around with them...but is it true the phone was pinging around? this would be extremely risky and maybe it is possible that he had one of the phones in his possession.

THERE IS NO METH LAB in this case ( I will eat my hat if there is).

this garbage excuse for a human being is a practiced molester/ murderer... I think he raped and killed them in those woods and then high tailed it.

I believe all that stuffing in his jacket was from his murder tools for his rituals, ( duct tape, zip ties, panty hose ,gloves, black jack, recorder/phone/
possible drugs etc. )

I hate saying these things, but this guy has full control of his facilities, he is not some stoner head case.

you just don't do this in broad daylight to two victims. You don't . he is a studied professional. he will be back.

right now he has crept back to his hole, but he will be back.

we need John Walsh, we need our crime tv back on the air...advocates who will talk everyday about this case until someone comes forward.

these girls haunt me...and I feel so sorry for the police there in Indiana, dealing with something like this.

MOO just thoughts.

BBM - oh how I miss John Walsh & AMW. That man is a saint in my book.

 

[ImnoSherlock]

opcorn:

 

[mpnola]

Minazoe. I feel like I wrote that post! Get out my brain lol

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[ozazure]

Whats the visibility like in those trees? Like I can see the bodies were left 300ft/100m from the end of the bridge. I know from my own experiences in the bush that your perception of the density of the trees in person vs captured in video or stills is quite different. Like it looks quite monotone and sparse enough that it'd be easy to spot people at that distance, especially from up high, but did he have "privacy" in amongst those trees? Like if someone got, say 60ft/20m would they be able to catch glimpses but not see them unobscured? Or would it be clear to see what was happening?

 

[JazzTune]

So the police officer talking about them crossing the creek is just being ignored in favor of inventive scenarios involving a car ride from under the south end of the bridge down a road, onto a highway across the creek, then down some more roads to get to the cemetery to march them in broad daylight and in view of at least one house, down to the creek on the north side, a short distance from where they started?

Nah.

Once in the car, he could have taken them anywhere but this fantasy has him driving them almost back to the spot where he grabbed them in order to kill them.

They crossed the creek.

JMHO

Nah. Not what I believe either.

I don't mind anyone expressing disagreement about my theory.

But please, may I ask that you get my theory straight?

Maybe I did not make it clear in the post you read. I apologize if that be the case.

But I never said the perp placed the girls in his car, motored them around to the other side, then promptly marched them down to the cemetery site, in broad daylight and killed them.

What I said was...

I believe the perp placed both girls in his car and then took them away to an isolated, secluded place.

He wanted to take his time torturing them, away from ANY chance of possible detection.

He wanted privacy.

If I'm understanding correctly, you contend the perp marched them through the woods, across the creek, in view of anyone watching from the bridge or other vantage points, and killed them.

Out in the open?

In broad daylight?

Could be seen by anyone? Screaming could have been heard by anyone?

No offense intended, but that does not make any sense to me at all.

I believe the killer opted for privacy over broad daylight. That's the heart of my theory.

Privacy.

Imo, they were tortured and killed in a secluded place.

Then, under the cover of darkness, he and perhaps an accomplice, imo, took them to where they were found.

Why there? I don't know.

Obviously, he wouldn't want the investigation anywhere near where he actually tortured the girls.

Maybe he just wanted to throw off the investigation? Wanted it to appear as though they WERE killed at the park?

Maybe it was nothing more than playing a mind game with LE, trying to outwit them. Imo, this perp thinks he's the smartest one out there.

As for Sgt. Holeman 'talking about them crossing the creek,' I don't interpret his words that way at all.

I believe he is detailing all the obstacles as to why they did NOT cross the creek.

For whatever reason, I don't think Sgt. Holeman minded either that this matter was not crystal clear.

No one has to agree with my theory. That does not bother me at all.

Disagreement and discussion are more than welcome.

All I ask is that others try to get my theory straight...

(Again, it's only a theory. Only an opinion...)

 

[Jethro4WS]

Whats the visibility like in those trees? Like I can see the bodies were left 300ft/100m from the end of the bridge. I know from my own experiences in the bush that your perception of the density of the trees in person vs captured in video or stills is quite different. Like it looks quite monotone and sparse enough that it'd be easy to spot people at that distance, especially from up high, but did he have "privacy" in amongst those trees? Like if someone got, say 60ft/20m would they be able to catch glimpses but not see them unobscured? Or would it be clear to see what was happening?

Here is the kind of view one would have if you were on top of the hill about 100 feet north of the taped off crime scene in the daylight.

I think that if anyone had been along the high ground even further away (west of this location looking East) they would have seen something going on. It is known from other media photos taken at the Southwest corner of the the crime scene that the bridge can be seen and that means the reverse is also true. Since the bridge is higher the view would not be as obscured by trees in the way especially when the girls were located 50 feet in from the water. Naturally that doesn't mean that someone would be able to see clearly but they would likely be able to discern that there were humans there moving if they were walking and in hindsight be a witness of sorts. As we know none of this happened but clearly it was a risk that could never be completely mitigated by the killer(s) since anyone could show up at any time - RL for instance, or someone that just came down one of the paths through the woods, even more so, it is highly unlikely that BG could be certain that there wasn't already someone in the vicinity of where he seemingly marched the girls. Imagine BG's surprise after marching them down to the creek and then seeing someone right across there. It didn't happen. But it could have and it was a variable beyond his control.

 

[Bird of Paradise]

One question. If taken elsewhere, how did the perp get the girls to the final destination? And did any of the family who remained have a car parked on the road where they would see a vehicle approaching? (too lazy at the moment to look up the search night).

Here is the kind of view one would have if you were on top of the hill about 100 feet north of the taped off crime scene in the daylight.

I think that if anyone had been along the high ground even further away (west of this location looking East) they would have seen something going on. It is known from other media photos taken at the Southwest corner of the the crime scene that the bridge can be seen and that means the reverse is also true. Since the bridge is higher the view would not be as obscured by trees in the way especially when the girls were located 50 feet in from the water. Naturally that doesn't mean that someone would be able to see clearly but they would likely be able to discern that there were humans there moving if they were walking and in hindsight be a witness of sorts. As we know none of this happened but clearly it was a risk that could never be completely mitigated by the killer(s) since anyone could show up at any time - RL for instance, or someone that just came down one of the paths through the woods, even more so, it is highly unlikely that BG could be certain that there wasn't already someone in the vicinity of where he seemingly marched the girls. Imagine BG's surprise after marching them down to the creek and then seeing someone right across there. It didn't happen. But it could have and it was a variable beyond his control.

 

[pepper 34]

Well, one thing to keep in mind is the girls were not trapped by any natural or physical barriers (like a fence) at the south end of the bridge. I posted the media photos a few days ago that show this. Any fencing seen, as in the JM video, just past the south end of the bridge was put up later. There is one house just 400 feet from the end of the bridge south of the bridge. There is another house 600 feet to the east of that end of the bridge.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it is not a given that BG had more knowledge of this area than the girls. Abby''s house is only 4000 feet down the road that runs under the bridge at that end. There are at least 3 houses that you would encounter before you get to her house. The girls knew exactly where they were. If they were to run, which it seems likely they did not, why would they choose to go across the creek and have to climb the steep hills to the north of the creek to try to get to houses over there? Why would that make more sense than trying for home or either of the two closest houses?

There is much evidence to suggest the girls did not run. We know BG did not have to chase them because the voice in the audio isn't huffing and puffing saying "down the hill". We don't know why they didn't run and likely never will unless it is on the audio recording. But there was nothing preventing them from doing so, considering how far away BG was from the girls when captured on the video, unless there was another person near where the girls were.

I'm completely convinced the girls did not run. I'm not sure if I gave the opposite impression? I think my comment was unclear. Someone asked why they didn't run. I was trying to demonstrate in my comment how, if they knew what we know now... they would have run. I should have simplified my comment by writing, "They didn't run because they had no idea they were going to be murdered. They were worried about a man who seemed to be following them but they didn't know the extent of the danger they were in."
In hindsight (that only we have) it is obvious now that they should have run but it's not fair for us to expect them to behave as though they had that advantage that we have but they didn't and couldn't have had.
For the record; I think AW and LG turned and began to walk away from BG and he caught up with them at about the end of the bridge. He assumed control with a weapon (a gun or hunting knife?) and had the girls walk down the hill to the road... cross the road under the bridge... cut through the woods... walk through the creek and he killed them at that time.... about 50 feet from the creek as LE stated. That much, to my satisfaction, I'm sure of. But, it is just... :moo: Everything I wrote is just :moo:!

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Here is the kind of view one would have if you were on top of the hill about 100 feet north of the taped off crime scene in the daylight.

I think that if anyone had been along the high ground even further away (west of this location looking East) they would have seen something going on. It is known from other media photos taken at the Southwest corner of the the crime scene that the bridge can be seen and that means the reverse is also true. Since the bridge is higher the view would not be as obscured by trees in the way especially when the girls were located 50 feet in from the water. Naturally that doesn't mean that someone would be able to see clearly but they would likely be able to discern that there were humans there moving if they were walking and in hindsight be a witness of sorts. As we know none of this happened but clearly it was a risk that could never be completely mitigated by the killer(s) since anyone could show up at any time - RL for instance, or someone that just came down one of the paths through the woods, even more so, it is highly unlikely that BG could be certain that there wasn't already someone in the vicinity of where he seemingly marched the girls. Imagine BG's surprise after marching them down to the creek and then seeing someone right across there. It didn't happen. But it could have and it was a variable beyond his control.

There comes RL into the play once more. What if the BG was his guest for some hours and did know RL was absent for a certain time when Abby/Libby were walking the trail? What if RL indeed knows more but isn't talking?

Does someone know the political direction RL is in? Would be important to know for me. TIA

 

[pepper 34]

A gun was pointed at me once. I froze. Gave her my purse. Screamed ltr. I think I screamed after she left in her vehicle. That's how I remember it, because as she walked away I remember that I followed a few steps and said mildly, 'give me my purse back.' But she was in a van and I was standing there wondering if she was going to run me over. Long story to say I FROZE. God spared me.


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I had a gun pointed in my face when I worked in a convenience store. I saw a covered up face and heard a guy tell me to get in the back room. My mind was a total blank but I know I walked on shaking legs and sick stomach to the back room somehow with no thoughts I could remember later. That's where I found myself when the store got all quiet after he left... in the back room of the store and locked in. Still, he said stay there for 5 minutes and I did stay there even though I knew he was gone and I was almost too afraid to ask the next customer in to unlock the door. I thought it might be the hold up guy who came back. I was 22 years old. A gun is terrifying and can sort of paralyze you in a way; when it's pointed at you.

 

[pepper 34]

RBBM
Hi, Pepper!
Go to "my profile". Then go to "about me". There's a section for "signature". Whatever you type there will show up on every post, as long as you have the "show signature" box checked when you post.
HTH!
~RIP Meagan.....

Thank you so much! I have trouble with navigating computer sites. I'm kinda old and this does not come naturally. I will set my profile up tomorrow and meantime will type... Just my :moo:

 

[Shiressleuth]

In spite of a disgusting map (sorry) ... but the map will show that the girls did not have to walk 1/4 mile through the very cold creek water. Follow the red line across the bridge to the SE end of bridge, down the hill, through the brushy trees and across a sandy part of the creek. You can even see how shallow the creek is here as the sand can be clearly seen through the water. This is, to me, is the shortest and easiest way to get from the bridge to the place where the girls were found. "Bodies found" is approximate. I believe the girls were actually found to the right of where I marked off but the route is pretty close imo.

TY for posting the map pepper. This shows the private road to the property to the right of your red line. I think they went down that road instead of going through the brush. They would then get to the creek. You can see the sand bar even in this pic. Going across at that point looks easier than your red line and gets to the CS at a similar point. What does everyone think? This property was empty at the time. JMO.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Whats the visibility like in those trees? Like I can see the bodies were left 300ft/100m from the end of the bridge. I know from my own experiences in the bush that your perception of the density of the trees in person vs captured in video or stills is quite different. Like it looks quite monotone and sparse enough that it'd be easy to spot people at that distance, especially from up high, but did he have "privacy" in amongst those trees? Like if someone got, say 60ft/20m would they be able to catch glimpses but not see them unobscured? Or would it be clear to see what was happening?

A good idea of the view that can be seen is behind A in her SC pic that was taken and posted by L. It can be found in the first post in every thread. Many posters thought they could see things in the background but LE discounted that. I don't think the CS would be visible based on that pic IMO.

 

[Jethro4WS]

I'm completely convinced the girls did not run. I'm not sure if I gave the opposite impression? I think my comment was unclear. Someone asked why they didn't run. I was trying to demonstrate in my comment how, if they knew what we know now... they would have run. I should have simplified my comment by writing, "They didn't run because they had no idea they were going to be murdered. They were worried about a man who seemed to be following them but they didn't know the extent of the danger they were in."
In hindsight (that only we have) it is obvious now that they should have run but it's not fair for us to expect them to behave as though they had that advantage that we have but they didn't and couldn't have had.
For the record; I think AW and LG turned and began to walk away from BG and he caught up with them at about the end of the bridge. He assumed control with a weapon (a gun or hunting knife?) and had the girls walk down the hill to the road... cross the road under the bridge... cut through the woods... walk through the creek and he killed them at that time.... about 50 feet from the creek as LE stated. That much, to my satisfaction, I'm sure of. But, it is just... :moo: Everything I wrote is just :moo:!

I was addressing this from your original post with my comment and I should have bolded it when replying:

if we got trapped (cut off from escape essentially) at the south end of that bridge

There is a notion that has been on-going in these threads for quite a long time that the girls were quite literally trapped at the south end of the bridge. That their fate was sealed simply by being there because there was nowhere for them to go due to some barrier that prevented them from getting out of there. That isn't true.

I don't second guess whether they should have run or not. What I do second-guess is when it is suggested they did not have that option or when it is suggested they would have tried to run but for some reason it has to be toward the creek without consideration of all the other options at hand. It isn't meant to be critical in a negative way. It is meant so that people will take some of those options into consideration and try to come up with a reason why each option should be discounted and among all of them what option do you think one or both of the girls would evaluate as their best option.

This is why I point things out like the proximity of Abby's home. The proximity of the closest homes. The likelihood that the girls were very familiar with exactly where they were. These are all important factors to keep in mind when working this case.

Like you, I am completely convinced that the girls did not run at all. I am not certain of why that is.

Here is the post I made on August 7th about the subject of being trapped. It includes media photos and an annotated map:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Delphi-13-Feb-2017-64&p=13548877#post13548877

The key part of that post is:

Given what I see in these photos and map views I am perplexed by the girls seemingly staying where they were even though Libby was concerned enough about something to start recording in the first place. There is no natural or artificial barrier that can be seen that would keep them there. So, for me, that leaves the two possibilities with one being that Libby was concerned enough to start recording but not concerned enough to get out of there or there was one or more individuals at the south end of that bridge that made it impossible for the girls to get out of there.

The recent reporting and the 27 minute interview seem to be pointing at the first option I present. It was said that in the additional audio the girls were talking about "things girls talk about" (whatever that means) prior to BG getting to them. I am still evaluating the 27 minute interview so I haven't completely ruled out option two at this point.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Any theories why they would cross the creek instead of running towards where they were dropped off?


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The bridge was the way back to their drop off point and BG was on that.

 

[Shiressleuth]

So we have those who cannot believe the girls and BG crossed the creek and we have those who do not believe they went in a vehicle and were brought back later. They got there somehow but which is the most feasible? Did they go back across the bridge? Most of us think not because of the DTH audio but .......?

 

[margarita25]

TY for posting the map pepper. This shows the private road to the property to the right of your red line. I think they went down that road instead of going through the brush. They would then get to the creek. You can see the sand bar even in this pic. Going across at that point looks easier than your red line and gets to the CS at a similar point. What does everyone think? This property was empty at the time. JMO.

I'd like to see this question addressed as well.

Also, I wonder if they tried to run down that road and BG caught up with them there?

Maybe this has been debunked somewhere and I missed it. It's also been a while since I've watched the GH videos.

 

[twenty11]

I was addressing this from your original post with my comment and I should have bolded it when replying:



There is a notion that has been on-going in these threads for quite a long time that the girls were quite literally trapped at the south end of the bridge. That their fate was sealed simply by being there because there was nowhere for them to go due to some barrier that prevented them from getting out of there. That isn't true.

I don't second guess whether they should have run or not. What I do second-guess is when it is suggested they did not have that option or when it is suggested they would have tried to run but for some reason it has to be toward the creek without consideration of all the other options at hand. It isn't meant to be critical in a negative way. It is meant so that people will take some of those options into consideration and try to come up with a reason why each option should be discounted and among all of them what option do you think one or both of the girls would evaluate as their best option.

This is why I point things out like the proximity of Abby's home. The proximity of the closest homes. The likelihood that the girls were very familiar with exactly where they were. These are all important factors to keep in mind when working this case.

Like you, I am completely convinced that the girls did not run at all. I am not certain of why that is.

Here is the post I made on August 7th about the subject of being trapped. It includes media photos and an annotated map:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Delphi-13-Feb-2017-64&p=13548877#post13548877

The key part of that post is:



The recent reporting and the 27 minute interview seem to be pointing at the first option I present. It was said that in the additional audio the girls were talking about "things girls talk about" (whatever that means) prior to BG getting to them. I am still evaluating the 27 minute interview so I haven't completely ruled out option two at this point.

Were they not likely waiting on one of the platforms for the killer to pass and that's when he took control? They were obviously already suspicious/scared and add to that the bridge is old and rickety and not suitable for running. He could have pulled out a gun/knife as soon as he got close to intimidate them. Not too sure what the argument here is...

 

[RIP Meagan + Johnny]

Were they not likely waiting on one of the platforms for the killer to pass and that's when he took control? They were obviously already suspicious/scared and add to that the bridge is old and rickety and not suitable for running. He could have pulled out a gun/knife as soon as he got close to intimidate them. Not too sure what the argument here is...

JMO...
I believe in one of the GH videos he proves, by using camera angles/positioning/etc, that Libby was standing off the SW end of the bridge when she took the video that contained the images LE released of BG. It is not known if Abby was still on the bridge or with Libby at that time.
JMO.