IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

[minazoe]

well it looks to me , from the photos that the reason they could have crossed over might be visibility, the visibility beyond the water is far less then in the less dense higher area leading to the water .

I cannot see him dragging two bodies back to this area, where he knows there will be a search happening and quite soon. Someone said there is a shallow area with only inches of water where you can cross.

another possibility is that he dragged their bodies through the water to remove evidence, however this would be another way to get caught, because someone can see all this activity happening. I am sure they were ordered not to scream or make one wrong move.

I am really concerned about this young Illinois woman found on the Kankakee river.

what is it with SK's and water? Is there any psychology behind this that has been written about?

it's so weird but you look at this sketch and you feel like its your next door neighbor.

maybe today people, maybe today...

MOO

 

[Falling Down]

JMO...
I believe in one of the GH videos he proves, by using camera angles/positioning/etc, that Libby was standing off the SW end of the bridge when she took the video that contained the images LE released of BG. It is not known if Abby was still on the bridge or with Libby at that time.
JMO.

x2

I've thought this since shortly after the murders.

They were already off the bridge, or maybe Abby was still on it, but a short distance away from Libby.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

Here is the kind of view one would have if you were on top of the hill about 100 feet north of the taped off crime scene in the daylight.

I think that if anyone had been along the high ground even further away (west of this location looking East) they would have seen something going on. It is known from other media photos taken at the Southwest corner of the the crime scene that the bridge can be seen and that means the reverse is also true. Since the bridge is higher the view would not be as obscured by trees in the way especially when the girls were located 50 feet in from the water. Naturally that doesn't mean that someone would be able to see clearly but they would likely be able to discern that there were humans there moving if they were walking and in hindsight be a witness of sorts. As we know none of this happened but clearly it was a risk that could never be completely mitigated by the killer(s) since anyone could show up at any time - RL for instance, or someone that just came down one of the paths through the woods, even more so, it is highly unlikely that BG could be certain that there wasn't already someone in the vicinity of where he seemingly marched the girls. Imagine BG's surprise after marching them down to the creek and then seeing someone right across there. It didn't happen. But it could have and it was a variable beyond his control.

"Top of the hill" is a ridge line, which is a few hundred feet from the back of the cemetery. So there's no way to see anyone from up above, unless you're at the ridge line. Reason being is the distance from the ridge line to the creek, it's a short distance, as demonstrated by the image above.

I have a lot of land navigation experience from military service. To me, the top of the ridge is one corner of a triangle, the triangle being the cross-section of land between the ridge and the creek. The short side of the triangle is the drop off from the top of the ridge. Long side of the triangle is the land, to the creek. Hypotenuse becomes our line-of-sight.

As you walk up to the ridge, you see a clearing in the trees in the distance, then the creek, then the land as you're practically on top of the ridge. If this makes any sense. Let's say our searchers got this far, the top of the ridge line the evening of the search. Unless they had a really high-powered spotlight, they would not have seen anything out of the ordinary from the top of the ridge. I'm merely assuming they got that far, as they'd asked neighbors for permission to go on to the private properties along there. We need to keep in mind the search was centered around the bridge, and downstream.

I don't think BG had much in the way of concern for being seen by anyone, but as you stated there were risks, and he knew that. Which tells me he had to get the crimes over with, in a matter of minutes. This is MOO, but I think he incapacitated them, somehow, then murdered them.

Walk from the parking area to the bridge=roughly 8 minutes, probably somewhat less for most adults.

Walk across the bridge, at a leisurely pace, probably 5-6 minutes. BG probably crossed it in under 4.

From the SE end of the bridge to the CS: Considering time of year, I'd say under 4 minutes.

I don't see that many park users would access the CS and general area around it, via the path from the cemetery. It's private property, and that's posted. My hunch is folks use that trail for horseback riding, and for folks to keep an eye on their properties. In one video I've seen, a pick up truck is seen not far from the CS, obviously people keeping an eye on things after the murders.

This simple information tells me BG had been there before, perhaps several times before in the past. He had to have known that the bridge/park would have few users on a relatively mild February day, so people getting on to the trail from the parking area may have had a frequency of one or two every half hour or so. On, say, a warm summer day, it might be 8-12 users per hour. Something along those lines, is what I'm thinking.

I still maintain he was watching the bridge, concealed himself somehow, and was observing who was crossing, and whether or not they walked the entire length.

 

[Shiressleuth]

x2

I've thought this since shortly after the murders.

They were already off the bridge, or maybe Abby was still on it, but a short distance away from Libby.

JMO

As they were talking to each other, based on the latest LE interview, they were together, I believe. So both were off the bridge imo. However I don't see why this is important tbh.

Re your second post above, I think the crime was over by 3.11 when DG got no answer from LG's phone when he first tried. From the BG pic at 2.30 p.m. till 3.11 is when the crime likely happened, whether they were taken away from the scene or not. JMOO.

 

[Daae]

Here is the kind of view one would have if you were on top of the hill about 100 feet north of the taped off crime scene in the daylight.

I think that if anyone had been along the high ground even further away (west of this location looking East) they would have seen something going on. It is known from other media photos taken at the Southwest corner of the the crime scene that the bridge can be seen and that means the reverse is also true. Since the bridge is higher the view would not be as obscured by trees in the way especially when the girls were located 50 feet in from the water. Naturally that doesn't mean that someone would be able to see clearly but they would likely be able to discern that there were humans there moving if they were walking and in hindsight be a witness of sorts. As we know none of this happened but clearly it was a risk that could never be completely mitigated by the killer(s) since anyone could show up at any time - RL for instance, or someone that just came down one of the paths through the woods, even more so, it is highly unlikely that BG could be certain that there wasn't already someone in the vicinity of where he seemingly marched the girls. Imagine BG's surprise after marching them down to the creek and then seeing someone right across there. It didn't happen. But it could have and it was a variable beyond his control.

Your thinking is incredibly perceptive! There is a slight cutout in the embankment area where I believe the bodies were found.

It is impossible for me to think like a murderer, I can't let my mind go there.

I can however, imagine a gold brick at the south end of the bridge that I want to steal, but if I get caught I will go to prison for life. I would check out the area very carefully, maybe for hours in advance. I would then come up the south end of the bridge, walk a short distance to make sure no one was present to identify me. I would then turn around walk back to the gold brick, grab it and vanish down the south side.

 

[DeDee]

<>

As you walk up to the ridge, you see a clearing in the trees in the distance, then the creek, then the land as you're practically on top of the ridge. If this makes any sense. Let's say our searchers got this far, the top of the ridge line the evening of the search. Unless they had a really high-powered spotlight, they would not have seen anything out of the ordinary from the top of the ridge. I'm merely assuming they got that far, as they'd asked neighbors for permission to go on to the private properties along there. We need to keep in mind the search was centered around the bridge, and downstream.

<>

Thank you, Falling Down, for posting this informative data and please accept my apologies for snipping to focus.

You are telling us that the CS was downstream from the SE end of High Bridge. It follows that the bridge is upstream from the CS. Therefore, if the girls entered the creek at the SE end, they would have been with flow of the current and not against it. Correct? That helps me to understand a particular matter so I deeply appreciate your offering expertise on the matter.

 

[TeaTime]

My theory is the girls were taken to a location elsewhere. They were killed some hours later at this same location. Their bodies were then taken to where they were found sometime after midnight. LE has never volunteered whether the girls were killed where they were found. The media has never asked LE whether the girls were killed where they were found or killed elsewhere and their bodies put there. It is usually one of the very first questions asked by the media anytime a body is found in the woods or in a field and it has never been asked to this day. Not once in the interview of 27 minutes did that even come up. We also don't have a time of death. This is another thing that has never been volunteered by LE nor asked about by the media.

This has been my theory since the first few days after the murders and this is where I still am at. LE is free at any time to make either of those two facts known. Until then this is just as viable a theory as others. People are free to pursue their own theories.

With all due respect, this is not a solid, well thought out theory. It has a murderer taking the girls away and then carrying their dead bodies, one at a time, through some precarious terrain next to inhabited homes to almost the same area from which they were taken and which was the center of attention in the search. This would assume that no one was on the lookout for vehicles driving on the roadways near the bridge which means it assumes that LE is stupid, they all went home after the preliminary search and no one had the night shift.

It also ignores the footprints on the bank which searchers found and ignores LE telling us that the girls crossed the creek.

We really have to dispose of theories that are founded in guesses and keep to what we know as truths.

The audio of the events captured more than we are privy to and if there was a HINT of evidence that a vehicle was used, LE would have been shouting it from the rooftops. They didn't. They said the girls crossed the creek, alive.

How do we know they were alive when they crossed the creek? Because LE described the terrain they would have had to maneuver.

 

[DeDee]

Your thinking is incredibly perceptive! There is a slight cutout in the embankment area where I believe the bodies were found.

It is impossible for me to think like a murderer, I can't let my mind go there.

I can however, imagine a gold brick at the south end of the bridge that I want to steal, but if I get caught I will go to prison for life. I would check out the area very carefully, maybe for hours in advance. I would then come up the south end of the bridge, walk a short distance to make sure no one was present to identify me. I would then turn around walk back to the gold brick, grab it and vanish down the south side.

Oh, Daae. Your plan, as a thief and not a murderer, makes sense. We are not murderers so it does take a certain mindset to imagine what a criminal of this type may do. That is a lovely metaphor of comparing our sweet girls to bricks of highly valuable gold. My respect for you just jumped a notch.

 

[Jax49]

Thank you, Falling Down, for posting this informative data and please accept my apologies for snipping to focus.

You are telling us that the CS was downstream from the SE end of High Bridge. It follows that the bridge is upstream from the CS. Therefore, if the girls entered the creek at the SE end, they would have been with flow of the current and not against it. Correct? That helps me to understand a particular matter so I deeply appreciate your offering expertise on the matter.

I'm not FD, but maybe I can help.

The crime scene was upstream. The early search was mostly downstream. moo

The victims were found at 12:15pm on Tuesday about three-quarters of a mile upstream from the bridge, police said. A volunteer searching for the girls found their bodies on private property about 50-60 feet from the water.
Their cause of death and nature of injuries were not released.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...arrant-served-Indiana-home-teens-murders.html

 

[TeaTime]

Nah. Not what I believe either.

I don't mind anyone expressing disagreement about my theory.

But please, may I ask that you get my theory straight?

Maybe I did not make it clear in the post you read. I apologize if that be the case.

But I never said the perp placed the girls in his car, motored them around to the other side, then promptly marched them down to the cemetery site, in broad daylight and killed them.

What I said was...

I believe the perp placed both girls in his car and then took them away to an isolated, secluded place.

He wanted to take his time torturing them, away from ANY chance of possible detection.

He wanted privacy.

If I'm understanding correctly, you contend the perp marched them through the woods, across the creek, in view of anyone watching from the bridge or other vantage points, and killed them.

Out in the open?

In broad daylight?

Could be seen by anyone? Screaming could have been heard by anyone?

No offense intended, but that does not make any sense to me at all.

I believe the killer opted for privacy over broad daylight. That's the heart of my theory.

Privacy.

Imo, they were tortured and killed in a secluded place.

Then, under the cover of darkness, he and perhaps an accomplice, imo, took them to where they were found.

Why there? I don't know.

Obviously, he wouldn't want the investigation anywhere near where he actually tortured the girls.

Maybe he just wanted to throw off the investigation? Wanted it to appear as though they WERE killed at the park?

Maybe it was nothing more than playing a mind game with LE, trying to outwit them. Imo, this perp thinks he's the smartest one out there.

As for Sgt. Holeman 'talking about them crossing the creek,' I don't interpret his words that way at all.

I believe he is detailing all the obstacles as to why they did NOT cross the creek.

For whatever reason, I don't think Sgt. Holeman minded either that this matter was not crystal clear.

No one has to agree with my theory. That does not bother me at all.

Disagreement and discussion are more than welcome.

All I ask is that others try to get my theory straight...

(Again, it's only a theory. Only an opinion...)

There is a bend in the creek right below the location of the bodies, no trails are near and the area of crossing is not visible from the bridge.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Thank you, Falling Down, for posting this informative data and please accept my apologies for snipping to focus.

You are telling us that the CS was downstream from the SE end of High Bridge. It follows that the bridge is upstream from the CS. Therefore, if the girls entered the creek at the SE end, they would have been with flow of the current and not against it. Correct? That helps me to understand a particular matter so I deeply appreciate your offering expertise on the matter.

It's complicated. The north end of the bridge is the bit that goes over the Creek. The girls were upstream from that but close to or downstream a bit from the south end of the bridge. IIRC the search the first day concentrated mainly downstream of the bit of the bridge that crosses the Creek which was therefore also downstream of the CS.

Phew I could not edit or do anything for a while till I rebooted but looks like others have clarified too.

 

[ImnoSherlock]

A working theory is full of guesses,until proven otherwise.

 

[ImnoSherlock]

The CS was upstream of the bridge,which means if you are standing at the CS looking at the water and throw your floatie in,it would travel towards the bridge.

 

[Jax49]

For clarification, because I must be stupid this morning, let's say that I dropped a floatable device at the SE end of High Bridge. Would it float toward the CS or away from it?

RSBM

Away from.

 

[DeDee]

The CS was upstream of the bridge,which means if you are standing at the CS looking at the water and throw your floatie in,it would travel towards the bridge.

Would you mind if I dropped by your 221 B Baker Street, London address for a spot of tea while this is discussed?

Your explanation explains what I thought all along and that is that it confirms the girls would be against the creek water's strong current in order to get to the other side or the CS side of Deer Creek.

Thanks to all who jumped in to assist my understanding of the water flow. :loveyou:

 

[pepper 34]

TY for posting the map pepper. This shows the private road to the property to the right of your red line. I think they went down that road instead of going through the brush. They would then get to the creek. You can see the sand bar even in this pic. Going across at that point looks easier than your red line and gets to the CS at a similar point. What does everyone think? This property was empty at the time. JMO.

It sure could have happened by that route, too, Shiressleuth. That would present a steeper hill to climb down to reach the creek... but, as we know... the girls were ordered "down the hill" and it could have been THAT hill.
Just :moo:

 

[JnRyan]

And what if a gun was being pointed at you? Could you/Would you still run?

First, if someone had a gun on me, I didn't have an opportunity to run and they told me to cross that creek ahead of them, would I? I don't know for sure, but if I thought if it bought me some time I most likely would cross it.

If they had a gun on me would I run. I don't know for sure and if it happened to me the circumstances may not be exactly like this. Knowing the person has a gun and it doesn't appear to be a robbery motive or a revenge motive (assuming they are stranger), I would imagine the most likely outcome is my death and finding any opportunity to run may be my only option.

In the case of Heidi Childs and David Metzler murdered near Blacksburg in 2009 it appeared to some in LE that David was shot in the car, but Heidi may have been attempting to run away. Exactly how it may have happened is open to speculation by even LE who have more info than us.

When I worked in grocery store chain we had another store robbed in a neighboring state. The robber had a gun on the 3 employees closing up and demanded they get in a car and drive. They went to a field outside of town where he told them he was going to have lie down while he drove off to buy him time to get far away. However, when the 3 employees laid down he proceeded to execute them. One got up and ran, was wounded and survived when the robber left him for dead. After that, we were told by our manager if it happened to us to give the robber the money but refuse to leave. A few months later a similar situation in one of our stores in a neighboring town. After the 2 robbers got the money they told the employees they were coming with them. The man in charge said 'No', they were staying. After a tense standoff, with witnesses in nearby locations, the robbers fled. (They learned from LE later that one of the two had killed before and was a cold emotionless killer.)

Would I have stayed or gone? I have no idea. We never know till we are in that situation. And you certainly don't know what the person next to you might do.

 

[kstephens98]

Maybe he used an ultralite or a hand glider to get them out and back in? Or maybe there are underground tunnels no one knows about, like drug cartels use?

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

 

[Spiritecho]

All MOO

We can each have our theories, but we can be respectful to others with differing theories.

It boils down to a few very basic known facts.

We don't know at what time or a what place BG says 'down the hill'

We don't know a time of death.

We don't know the sequence of events after he says 'down the hill'

Those three things above are facts.

 

[pepper 34]

I was addressing this from your original post with my comment and I should have bolded it when replying:



There is a notion that has been on-going in these threads for quite a long time that the girls were quite literally trapped at the south end of the bridge. That their fate was sealed simply by being there because there was nowhere for them to go due to some barrier that prevented them from getting out of there. That isn't true.

I don't second guess whether they should have run or not. What I do second-guess is when it is suggested they did not have that option or when it is suggested they would have tried to run but for some reason it has to be toward the creek without consideration of all the other options at hand. It isn't meant to be critical in a negative way. It is meant so that people will take some of those options into consideration and try to come up with a reason why each option should be discounted and among all of them what option do you think one or both of the girls would evaluate as their best option.

This is why I point things out like the proximity of Abby's home. The proximity of the closest homes. The likelihood that the girls were very familiar with exactly where they were. These are all important factors to keep in mind when working this case.

Like you, I am completely convinced that the girls did not run at all. I am not certain of why that is.

Here is the post I made on August 7th about the subject of being trapped. It includes media photos and an annotated map:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Delphi-13-Feb-2017-64&p=13548877#post13548877

The key part of that post is:



The recent reporting and the 27 minute interview seem to be pointing at the first option I present. It was said that in the additional audio the girls were talking about "things girls talk about" (whatever that means) prior to BG getting to them. I am still evaluating the 27 minute interview so I haven't completely ruled out option two at this point.

People don't generally run when they are made nervous by someone, imo. I don't think the girls were worried enough about BG to run. The girls may have expected an uncomfortable verbal exchange to take place but surely, if they thought BG was going to kill them within minutes of reaching the SE end of the bridge... (well, then I have to assume they would have run.) What I am trying to say in both comments I made, and I apologize for not being clear is... only running early enough would have been an effective escape imo. While LG was video taping BG, they should have been leaving the bridge and running as fast as they could but they could not know that.
By waiting and not running, immediately upon suspecting they were being followed, the SE end of the bridge became a trap of sorts... BG probably would have run in pursuit imo and easily grab one girl which would have caused the other girl to stop running. Plus, it's my opinion that he had a gun.
So, to me... it doesn't matter how many potential escape routes there are at the SE bridge end... they couldn't reach those exits with enough of a head start.. because they had waited too long in time to realize the true danger of their situation. So, if you say you've assessed those escape routes and they are easily passable and lead to help then that only breaks my heart a little deeper about what actually did happen rather than what I WISHED had happened. Hindsight is a gift many people would like, just ONE time, please... to receive beforehand...!!
(and thank you for the great maps, etc... I will study them)
Everything I write is :moo: