IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #76

[Sleuthin' n TX]

I would think, if they really believe it was DN and they had previously had a DNA Parabon done on their "suspect" DNA, they would send his DNA once they got it and see how much that DNA Parabon resembles the suspect DNA Parabon they had done earlier. Hopefully cutting off any "He doesn't look like the sketch" argument.
And is it possible that if they did do it, and had to enter this DNA in the database then- all records (including past) would update?

I worked as a District Clerk and, yes, files are updated constantly. Especially so now with most counties becoming automated. I do not know if IN had a Parabon DNA profile done on any suspect DNA because we just know that they "have DNA"...I concur with the idea that the DNA that they do have is intermingled with other DNA; touch, searchers, family, etc. and has been very difficult to identify or separate out. Plus, we learned recently that there is a huge backlog in IN suspect DNA specimens so I cannot think IN asked for Parabon testing now because of: lack of budget, DNA backlog and possible DNA contamination . IMOO, more confusion for us.

 

[foxbluff]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Delphi-13-Feb-2017-73&p=13721657#post13721657

This is a link to DN's first letter. The writing looks similar - all capital letters.

The posts after where this link takes you, refer to KN's interview, which are also interesting to review again as we are comparing what each has said.

BBM - Yes, very interesting to read again. The most interesting to me was Kizzy's transcription of a portion of KN's interview which I've copied/pasted below.

kizzykat 10/28/2017 Thread #73 Post#302
Hmmm. I don't know what to make of this. Initial reactions of the video interview: "circus" and "LE's losing the tight grip on the situation"

The part about the letter "K" rumor. Never heard that. (Agree she did appear distressed on hearing it.) I've always felt there was something very distinct about this crime that would bring such a huge show of force from various LE at the big press conference last winter, and mention that even the FBI Director was kept informed. Something like that would be distinct, a signature if you will. (And that part made my heart ache even more for these girls.)

Hatchet (first part re: hatchet is at 10:11 mark), she claims he "doesn't carry it all the time", when she first met him that wasn't a situation. Then she said the only times he's had a hatchet or axe was while they were in Colorado. (Did she not know about the Indiana incidents? The former employer's family member he threatened, and the former landlord who rented a home to DN + family in Martinsville saying he chopped trees and a chair with a hatchet? C'mon...)

Sketch (14:30 mark, her words, interviewer's left out) "I think that looks a lot like Daniel...I've said that from day one, yeah...There's a lot of similarities in that sketch and my husband's face. Uh, it's scary because I even did the whole thing of covering the hat, just because the hat is not something I know he would wear. And even covering the hat that sketch looks a lot like him. It has same nose, which his nose you can't mistake, I'm sorry...that's what scared me. When I saw that comparison put side by side I just stood there and stared at it for awhile because it's like that really looks like him, you put a same type of hat on him that's in that sketch and (then?) it looks a lot like him. And even that blurry picture...now that picture there's a couple things I'm up and down about that picture to be honest with you. He never had a jacket like that, however, if Daniel did anything like that obviously I don't know if he did it so how do I know he didn't purchase something like that so it doesn't look like him and get rid of it. You know what I mean? However, I did Daniel's laundry. I've been taking care of the house for years since we've been together so did I know that he had any articles of clothing like what's worn in that picture? Not that I've ever seen. I've never seen him (?) a blue jacket like that so that's why I was like ok well he never had one but that doesn't mean anything. Obviously. Um, he's lied about so much since we've been married, I can't believe anything anymore. I don't know what he has done or what he hasn't done. I don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth anymore."

She just threw him under the bus. IMO and MOO.

 

[foxbluff]

I worked as a District Clerk and, yes, files are updated constantly. Especially so now with most counties becoming automated. I do not know if IN had a Parabon DNA profile done on any suspect DNA because we just know that they "have DNA"...I concur with the idea that the DNA that they do have is intermingled with other DNA; touch, searchers, family, etc. and has been very difficult to identify or separate out. Plus, we learned recently that there is a huge backlog in IN suspect DNA specimens so I cannot think IN asked for Parabon testing now because of: lack of budget, DNA backlog and possible DNA contamination . IMOO, more confusion for us.

Are you saying you don't believe Indy had a Parabon Sketch done due to lack of available funding?

Since the FBI is involved in this case, I've thought perhaps they footed Parabon's bill.

 

[catastrophe_]

...and in the sketch IMO. What do you make of the N/Afr bit though? DN doesn't look N.Afican to me at all. Is this Co who did this because Parabon takes 90 days according to the link I posted the other day and it's only been about 75 days so far since his arrest?

This below is just a little bit of insight regarding some of my own life/experience/a situation with concern to having an (appearingly) white male that received genetic/geographic DNA results back, with that showing a listed percentage of "North African" genetic/geographic that they may/not know about...

My significant other had the AncestryDNA done two years ago. Initially he was anticipating and hoping to see even just a speck of Native American that is supposedly in his bloodline as per a popular family story he's been told over the years... but only to later on discover that according to their testing, he doesn't have Native American blood listed at all, but it does in fact show that there's something like "<1% North African" with him.

He told me that after talking with his grandmother about it, they apparently knew about this being in their genetic line already sort of thing, it just wasn't ever really brought up before.
So with the only 'facial features' my guy and his family have that they attribute to that, in light of this, and I can certainly agree with them. Majority of the family and he have a slightly wider shaped and thicker/more bulbous tipped nose (than the average white European individual) has, and a slightly thicker, medium curly wave to how the hair grows in and that's also more frizzy all around the edge of the hair line.

 

[Steleheart]

I know you love them but somewhere I think they said disregard the hat. But hey JMo. If I find the link I will post it.

So we're going back to discussing that frigging hat again...... ullhair:

At least I didn't mention that friggin baby goat, :floorlaugh:

 

[Hatfield]

BBM - Yes, very interesting to read again. The most interesting to me was Kizzy's transcription of a portion of KN's interview which I've copied/pasted below.

kizzykat 10/28/2017 Thread #73 Post#302
Hmmm. I don't know what to make of this. Initial reactions of the video interview: "circus" and "LE's losing the tight grip on the situation"

The part about the letter "K" rumor. Never heard that. (Agree she did appear distressed on hearing it.) I've always felt there was something very distinct about this crime that would bring such a huge show of force from various LE at the big press conference last winter, and mention that even the FBI Director was kept informed. Something like that would be distinct, a signature if you will. (And that part made my heart ache even more for these girls.)

Hatchet (first part re: hatchet is at 10:11 mark), she claims he "doesn't carry it all the time", when she first met him that wasn't a situation. Then she said the only times he's had a hatchet or axe was while they were in Colorado. (Did she not know about the Indiana incidents? The former employer's family member he threatened, and the former landlord who rented a home to DN + family in Martinsville saying he chopped trees and a chair with a hatchet? C'mon...)

Sketch (14:30 mark, her words, interviewer's left out) "I think that looks a lot like Daniel...I've said that from day one, yeah...There's a lot of similarities in that sketch and my husband's face. Uh, it's scary because I even did the whole thing of covering the hat, just because the hat is not something I know he would wear. And even covering the hat that sketch looks a lot like him. It has same nose, which his nose you can't mistake, I'm sorry...that's what scared me. When I saw that comparison put side by side I just stood there and stared at it for awhile because it's like that really looks like him, you put a same type of hat on him that's in that sketch and (then?) it looks a lot like him. And even that blurry picture...now that picture there's a couple things I'm up and down about that picture to be honest with you. He never had a jacket like that, however, if Daniel did anything like that obviously I don't know if he did it so how do I know he didn't purchase something like that so it doesn't look like him and get rid of it. You know what I mean? However, I did Daniel's laundry. I've been taking care of the house for years since we've been together so did I know that he had any articles of clothing like what's worn in that picture? Not that I've ever seen. I've never seen him (?) a blue jacket like that so that's why I was like ok well he never had one but that doesn't mean anything. Obviously. Um, he's lied about so much since we've been married, I can't believe anything anymore. I don't know what he has done or what he hasn't done. I don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth anymore."

She just threw him under the bus. IMO and MOO.

JMO
With his past experiences with getting in trouble I think he has become a master at trying to weasel his way out of things. With his number one skill of being a good liar.

She knows him best and she says
"I don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth anymore."

So I am definitely not going to believe anything he says or any letters he writes.

I also have a hard time believing her as well because if she stuck by his side and let him around her children even after he committed some horrible acts then I dont have a lot of faith that she would be totally truthful either. But I will believe her about him being a liar.

The other thing I am convinced of is that he had a lot of rage about his relatives murder and his motives in going to Colorado were along those lines. I have a feeling that he wanted to extract some sort of revenge on someone. When he could not get to the person that committed the murder he may have been satisfied with hurting or killing anyone he decided to.

 

[her]

I would think, if they really believe it was DN and they had previously had a DNA Parabon done on their "suspect" DNA, they would send his DNA once they got it and see how much that DNA Parabon resembles the suspect DNA Parabon they had done earlier. Hopefully cutting off any "He doesn't look like the sketch" argument.
And is it possible that if they did do it, and had to enter this DNA in the database then- all records (including past) would update?

If they had DNA they would just test it and not go through a software system for a possible sketch. For anyone not just this possible senecio put out there. It makes no sense not too. We know nothing if Parabon was used. They also get things wrong. It got my eye color wrong with a medical analysis, not on any family tree dna site.
Yes, past records may get updated with facts but this instance I don’t think so not with Parabon. This is becoming convoluted.

 

[Sleuthin' n TX]

Are you saying you don't believe Indy had a Parabon Sketch done due to lack of available funding?

Since the FBI is involved in this case, I've thought perhaps they footed Parabon's bill.

True.

I won't respond to future posts re: Parabon.

 

[her]

True.

I won't respond to future posts re: Parabon.

Why?
post away it&#8217;s a possibility

 

[Shiressleuth]

True.

I won't respond to future posts re: Parabon.

Now I'm intrigued.

Have you got a link stating FBI paid for it?

 

[Shiressleuth]

BBM - Yes, very interesting to read again. The most interesting to me was Kizzy's transcription of a portion of KN's interview which I've copied/pasted below.

kizzykat 10/28/2017 Thread #73 Post#302
Hmmm. I don't know what to make of this. Initial reactions of the video interview: "circus" and "LE's losing the tight grip on the situation"

The part about the letter "K" rumor. Never heard that. (Agree she did appear distressed on hearing it.) I've always felt there was something very distinct about this crime that would bring such a huge show of force from various LE at the big press conference last winter, and mention that even the FBI Director was kept informed. Something like that would be distinct, a signature if you will. (And that part made my heart ache even more for these girls.)

Hatchet (first part re: hatchet is at 10:11 mark), she claims he "doesn't carry it all the time", when she first met him that wasn't a situation. Then she said the only times he's had a hatchet or axe was while they were in Colorado. (Did she not know about the Indiana incidents? The former employer's family member he threatened, and the former landlord who rented a home to DN + family in Martinsville saying he chopped trees and a chair with a hatchet? C'mon...)

Sketch (14:30 mark, her words, interviewer's left out) "I think that looks a lot like Daniel...I've said that from day one, yeah...There's a lot of similarities in that sketch and my husband's face. Uh, it's scary because I even did the whole thing of covering the hat, just because the hat is not something I know he would wear. And even covering the hat that sketch looks a lot like him. It has same nose, which his nose you can't mistake, I'm sorry...that's what scared me. When I saw that comparison put side by side I just stood there and stared at it for awhile because it's like that really looks like him, you put a same type of hat on him that's in that sketch and (then?) it looks a lot like him. And even that blurry picture...now that picture there's a couple things I'm up and down about that picture to be honest with you. He never had a jacket like that, however, if Daniel did anything like that obviously I don't know if he did it so how do I know he didn't purchase something like that so it doesn't look like him and get rid of it. You know what I mean? However, I did Daniel's laundry. I've been taking care of the house for years since we've been together so did I know that he had any articles of clothing like what's worn in that picture? Not that I've ever seen. I've never seen him (?) a blue jacket like that so that's why I was like ok well he never had one but that doesn't mean anything. Obviously. Um, he's lied about so much since we've been married, I can't believe anything anymore. I don't know what he has done or what he hasn't done. I don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth anymore."

She just threw him under the bus. IMO and MOO.

Just want to say that his first wife' s name also began with that letter too.

 

[Shiressleuth]

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/06/0624_050624_spencerwells_2.html

Re. DNA.

 

[Shiressleuth]

This below is just a little bit of insight regarding some of my own life/experience/a situation with concern to having an (appearingly) white male that received genetic/geographic DNA results back, with that showing a listed percentage of "North African" genetic/geographic that they may/not know about...

My significant other had the AncestryDNA done two years ago. Initially he was anticipating and hoping to see even just a speck of Native American that is supposedly in his bloodline as per a popular family story he's been told over the years... but only to later on discover that according to their testing, he doesn't have Native American blood listed at all, but it does in fact show that there's something like "<1% North African" with him.

He told me that after talking with his grandmother about it, they apparently knew about this being in their genetic line already sort of thing, it just wasn't ever really brought up before.
So with the only 'facial features' my guy and his family have that they attribute to that, in light of this, and I can certainly agree with them. Majority of the family and he have a slightly wider shaped and thicker/more bulbous tipped nose (than the average white European individual) has, and a slightly thicker, medium curly wave to how the hair grows in and that's also more frizzy all around the edge of the hair line.

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/06/0624_050624_spencerwells_2.html

Apparently we are all descended from Africa. That explains the 1%. Loads of scientific articles on the net about it. All descended from a man called Adam apparently.

 

[MistyWaters]

If they had DNA they would just test it and not go through a software system for a possible sketch. For anyone not just this possible senecio put out there. It makes no sense not too. We know nothing if Parabon was used. They also get things wrong. It got my eye color wrong with a medical analysis, not on any family tree dna site.
Yes, past records may get updated with facts but this instance I don’t think so not with Parabon. This is becoming convoluted.

"Race: White/European/North African/Middle East"

I agree. It be a real stretch that a DNA Ancestry test is the source of this imo.

Race is defined as identifiable features of which skin colour is one - ie white, although Parabon describes skin colour as very fair, fair, olive etc.

But as for European/North African/Middle East, none are a distinctive "race" of one set of common characteristics. They describe an utterly broad ethnic origin that would be of little use to Parabon in generating a visual snapshot.

Parabon and ancestry:
https://snapshot.parabon-nanolabs.com/#ancestry

In my opinion it is more likely that when DN was booked into jail, he was required to provide all the usual information - name, birthdate, birthplace, education etc that are also completed on the computer generated form. The simplest explanation to the question of "race" is he offered up everything he could think of in terms of ethnicity, true or otherwise, and so the booking clerk added what was indeed recognizable and that was the word "white".

JMO

 

[Shiressleuth]

At least I didn't mention that friggin baby goat, :floorlaugh:

You just had to mention it didn't you?

So peeps, do LE have DN's DNA comparison back yet? What's the delay as they originally said they'd know in days?

 

[abeaman02]

I keep seeing here that LE said "ignore the cap". which is not true IIRC.


http://fox59.com/2017/07/17/police-...hi-teens-liberty-german-and-abigail-williams/

From the FBI poster;

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/unknown-suspect-2/@@download.pdf

They did say though;

.http://fox59.com/2017/07/17/police-...hi-teens-liberty-german-and-abigail-williams/

I can't find anywhere that LE has said "ignore the cap/hat". Why would they? It may not be accurate, he may or may not wear the one depicted but focus on the facial features. I can see the confusion with a witness who only wears ball caps for instance - no it's not that poofy, more narrow, no not like that - can't remember, etc.
Many of us thought he wore a hat, some say no, same confusion IMO. but if there was no hat, why not describe his hair - bald, parted on the left, right, middle, comb-over... some kind of hat. Apparently not a ball cap.

Mostly JMO.

I agree that they are not saying to ignore the hat, just don't put to much thought into it. I believe they don't want people to focus on the style of hat. for example a baseball hat can stereotype someone into a category someone who wears a hat all the time and so someone else may eliminate somebody they would normally consider a POI because they don't normally wear a baseball hat. It can also hide some of the features of a forehead because of the bill. So using a generic hat that is not normally worn all the time fits a larger group (no pun intended).

Also I always think of a sketch as a picture that is not necessarily super detailed or exact but just enough to remind you of someone and give you that nagging feeling without giving you cause to eliminate them because of one specific detail. Of course this is MOO

 

[mtnlites]

I can't understand why they put that hat on that sketch. It is not a cap commonly worn in the US. A baseball type hat would be far more likely to be worn. They put that cap on him and say 'ignore the cap', but it is more distinctive than an common baseball type cap.

This is a conversation we've had a lot...
I agree with the confusion of including a hat like that. I disagree, however, that it's not commonly worn in the US. This cap, commonly referred to as a "newsboy cap" is VERY popular at the moment. Even Wal-Mart sells them. My 34-year-old husband wears one, my 10-year-old son, and my 71-year-old dad. In my small, rural town I see an average of 10 a day-in the larger city nearby, I see more. They grew in popularity with the "hipsters" a couple of years ago-back when they were hard to find. Once that movement found more ground, those caps became mass produced and they can be found just about anywhere, including thrift shops where just about anyone could pick one up. I was at a flea market the other day and one booth was devoted to nothing but "Lids" (a brand of hat). They had a wall of nothing but newsboys caps in different colors.

So yes, they are out there. But why they chose to use this style and then say to ignore the hat is beyond me.

 

[drama_farmer]

This is a conversation we've had a lot...
I agree with the confusion of including a hat like that. I disagree, however, that it's not commonly worn in the US. This cap, commonly referred to as a "newsboy cap" is VERY popular at the moment. Even Wal-Mart sells them. My 34-year-old husband wears one, my 10-year-old son, and my 71-year-old dad. In my small, rural town I see an average of 10 a day-in the larger city nearby, I see more. They grew in popularity with the "hipsters" a couple of years ago-back when they were hard to find. Once that movement found more ground, those caps became mass produced and they can be found just about anywhere, including thrift shops where just about anyone could pick one up. I was at a flea market the other day and one booth was devoted to nothing but "Lids" (a brand of hat). They had a wall of nothing but newsboys caps in different colors.

So yes, they are out there. But why they chose to use this style and then say to ignore the hat is beyond me.

BBM

hmmmmm. . . if this were a movie. . . I imagine a split-screen of that press conference and opposite that, a closeup of that particular hat being collected as evidence at the crime scene. Ta-Da!

ullhair::kickcan::stretch:

 

[Steleheart]

I agree that they are not saying to ignore the hat, just don't put to much thought into it. I believe they don't want people to focus on the style of hat. for example a baseball hat can stereotype someone into a category someone who wears a hat all the time and so someone else may eliminate somebody they would normally consider a POI because they don't normally wear a baseball hat. It can also hide some of the features of a forehead because of the bill. So using a generic hat that is not normally worn all the time fits a larger group (no pun intended).

Also I always think of a sketch as a picture that is not necessarily super detailed or exact but just enough to remind you of someone and give you that nagging feeling without giving you cause to eliminate them because of one specific detail. Of course this is MOO

That's right. The hat is way overrated. I mentioned it because I keep seeing "LE said" comments as fact without backup.

If he was known to be bald on top that would be important - but it's up in the air. Facial features is the focus LE is stressing and I believe what they want is for someone who knows this man to come forward, not strangers making comparisons to people they never met.

But JMO

 

[mtnlites]

BBM

hmmmmm. . . if this were a movie. . . I imagine a split-screen of that press conference and opposite that, a closeup of that particular hat being collected as evidence at the crime scene. Ta-Da!

ullhair::kickcan::stretch:

If this were a movie, I can see them doing a "six months later" update with LE sitting around a table, stacks of pictures of random people wearing newsboys' caps in front of them, heads in hands. One looks up and says, "Bob, you just HAD to use that style, didn't you?" And Bob replying, "Sorry guys! It's the only kind I know how to draw!"