IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #79

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INDIANAPOLIS, Ind. -- Starting Jan. 1, anyone arrested for a felony in Indiana will be required to submit a DNA sample.
DNA samples were previously only collected following a felony conviction. The new law will require police to take a cheek swab along with fingerprints from everyone arrested for a felony crime.

http://fox59.com/2017/12/29/new-indiana-law-requires-dna-samples-be-collected-following-all-felony-arrests/
 
Exactly. Hence why we're repeatledly told they cannot rule anyone in or out.


Indiana LE reported they obtained DN's DNA.

The only thing that makes sense to me, is that have DNA from the crime scene, but it is not know if it is the killers.

Otherwise, they'd be able to rule people out and they aren't doing that.

moo
 
Exactly. Hence why we're repeatledly told they cannot rule anyone in or out.

But, if they have DN's DNA and they have it at the crime scene, then they could at least say he was there. They aren't saying anything except they can't rule him in or out, but he remains a POI as others do. So confusing imo.
 
Abby & Libby have been on my mind and in my heart during this holiday season, along with their families.
I read an article that refreshed in my mind the reason we are here on Web Sleuths and what we need to keep in mind.
The article is : https://www.theindychannel.com/longform/delphi-daughters-the-untold-story-of-abby-libby
Here are a few quotes from the familes and the reporter in this article:
Abigail “Abby” Williams and Liberty “Libby” German had a bond stronger than most. This was a bond that not even a killer could break.
Abigail Joyce Williams
Abby loved making things for other people. She’d make rubber band bracelets, paintings and bead crafts for friends. There wasn’t a form of art that Abby hadn’t tried her hand at. “She had more crafts than you’d know what to do with,” Anna said. "She loved to make things for other people, she loved to be around other people." Abby had recently been knitting tiny, colorful hats for newborns at the local hospital. Also in her blood was a knack for photography, a passion her mother also shared. Abby would run off with her mom’s camera when they were at weddings or other events. She loved the outdoors and had an eye for the world around her, finding details most would miss. “I do have pictures when she was little and our friend had a beautiful garden and I let her take it. It occurred to me how much at a foot and a half shorter – how different she did see things,” said Anna. Abby’s last photo would feature her on the majestic Monon High Bridge, enjoying another of her and her best friend’s favorite things to do.
Liberty Rose Lynn German
Liberty German dreamed of becoming a science teacher. She was interested in solving crimes or finding clues and her curiosity in the sciences was serious business. She attended several classes at nearby Purdue University to try out different areas to see what interested her most. She was a mature student, but still a teenager. Libby loved to make people feel good – she would use sticky notes to leave messages of love and encouragement for others. It wasn’t until after her death that her grandparents learned about all of the little things she did. “She left me a note one day in my sun visor,” said Becky. “’I love you. Thank you for all you do for me and (my sister).’” “She called me one day,” Mike said. “I had given her some money for some item at school or a function, probably a $10 bill. She called me up and said ‘Grandpa, with the change can I give it to somebody else? There is somebody who needs something.’ So, that’s the way she worked. It’s the way she operated.” Her grandparents said she was always thinking of someone else.Like Abby, she too had a passion for photography. Nature, the bridge, her friends and family – She loved to take photos of the world around her. And on February 13, she did just that, catching a killer in her lens.
The Bond
The mystery surrounding what happened on that bridge remains, but photos and video taken from Libby’s cellphone have given investigators a glimpse into what may have happened in those final moments. Libby is heralded a hero for having the wherewithal to turn her camera on, like she did so many times before, and capture what was happening. Investigators have released two still images and a 3-second audio clip from that recording of the only person they have officially called a suspect in the crime: An unrecognizable man in a blue coat, with evil intentions for two teenage girls. And in their fear and confusion of the final moments of their young lives, their bond was stronger than ever. “They did not leave each other's side. I don't know what happened out there that day---there's a chance, an opportunity for one to break off or split or make a break for it, or whatever,” said Mike. “I look at it you, know two young soldiers that stuck together, covered each other's back, two best friends, you know. I wouldn't leave my best friend side. Neither did they.”
Legacy
The murders of Libby and Abby have left a hole in the tight-knit community they grew up in. Photos of the girls along with posters of the suspect still plaster storefront windows across town, almost three months later. Fundraisers continue as the community bands together to help raise money to fund a sports complex that will be built in the girls’ memory. It’s something that both families look forward to in the wake of the tragedy. It’s a way to make sure Libby and Abby are never forgotten. “They’ll remember them. Their legacy will be there,” said Becky. Along with the sports complex, Anna said a park will also be dedicated in Abby’s memory. “I see beautiful things from our parks,” said Anna. “For our families, for our community to be involved for years and years to come.” While a site for the park has not been selected, the love behind the project remains. “So the rest of the girls in this community, growing up, can always go there and read on a plaque ‘this field was built in remembrance of (Libby and Abby),’ said Mike. “A kid 25 years from now can look at it and go: ‘That’s why I get to play here today.’” It’s in these places that joy can live on and Abby and Libby’s families can see their daughters forever. End of article quotes.


While I have only posted a handful of times, I have read most of these 79 threads (with the exception of scrolling and rolling several times). I believe it is easy to get fixated on one thing or person to the point of insisting we are right. None of us has the one thing that can catch BG or he would be locked up. (Believe me, I have racked my brain this past few days. What are we missing?) I'm sorry this is so long, but I think we owe it to Abby & Libby to show respect for them, their families and each other as we try to "sleuth" this case. Also, thank you Tricia and all the mods for all you do.
 
Indiana LE reported they obtained DN's DNA.

The only thing that makes sense to me, is that have DNA from the crime scene, but it is not know if it is the killers.

Otherwise, they'd be able to rule people out and they aren't doing that.

moo

How many different DNA profiles would we expect to be on the two girls? I'd have expected family members and search team (if anyone touched them) DNA's to be easily ruled out?

The police are being incredibly secretive, I wonder why they have shared so little info. It's unusual for US police isn't it?
 
TY Magnolia. Wouldn't it be great to remove the pictures of that killer from all over town? I so hope that day won't be too long in coming.
 
How many different DNA profiles would we expect to be on the two girls? I'd have expected family members and search team (if anyone touched them) DNA's to be easily ruled out?

The police are being incredibly secretive, I wonder why they have shared so little info. It's unusual for US police isn't it?

In my experience, this level of secrecy isn't that unusual.

As for the DNA, I don't think it was recovered from the girls. I'm thinking it was found nearby, such as a cigarette butt. Could belong to someone totally unrelated to the murders or to the killer.

moo
 
TY Magnolia. Wouldn't it be great to remove the pictures of that killer from all over town? I so hope that day won't be too long in coming.

You're welcome. That would definitely be a great day, especially for the families and the community.
 
But, if they have DN's DNA and they have it at the crime scene, then they could at least say he was there. They aren't saying anything except they can't rule him in or out, but he remains a POI as others do. So confusing imo.
It is possible BG left no DNA at the scene and therefore the DNA they do have from the scene and the girls may never match the killer. It would explain why they cannot rule any POI in or out - they need additional info and witnesses and tips for that additional evidence IMO - hence the Dr Phil show.
 
In my experience, this level of secrecy isn't that unusual.

As for the DNA, I don't think it was recovered from the girls. I'm thinking it was found nearby, such as a cigarette butt. Could belong to someone totally unrelated to the murders or to the killer.

moo

Not that unusual in my experience, either, to hold back so much information.

I was about to comment and say the same thing about the DNA. They were found in a public park. Not only do lots of people go there, but items can find their way there by wind or water. It would be really hard to definitively say if that piece of paper, cigarette butt, Coke bottle, etc. was from the killer, from a random park visitor, or just blew in from one of the nearby houses.
 
Thank you everyone for answering my questions when it comes to police procedure. I'm in the UK and the US has a very different legal system. I am trying to learn as quickly as possible, but in the meantime please bear with me if, or more likely when, I ask annoying questions. Thank you again.
 
Thank you everyone for answering my questions when it comes to police procedure. I'm in the UK and the US has a very different legal system. I am trying to learn as quickly as possible, but in the meantime please bear with me if, or more likely when, I ask annoying questions. Thank you again.

There's also the fact that even within our various states, procedures can differ. And then you start getting into cultural nuances that don't always translate from town to town, much less state to state. :-) Go ahead and ask away and we shall try to answer!
 
There's also the fact that even within our various states, procedures can differ. And then you start getting into cultural nuances that don't always translate from town to town, much less state to state. :-) Go ahead and ask away and we shall try to answer!

Does Colorado have DNA collections on arrest and do Counties share information?

KR
Reacher
 
LE releases what info they think the public can be of help with...sometimes it is not enough. Sometimes they hold back too much for too long, Imo. The public has very short memories. I can’t give much credit to the sketch unless it was done within days of the murders. Eyewitnesses are generally the least helpful in the end. Jmo
 
Interesting...
"One thing they’ve been doing is conducting additional follow-up on information provided by working with technology, mainly from cell phones.

“Some investigators continue to dig deeper into backtracking what certain people were doing on February 13,” he said, of the information captured from cell phones in the area that day."

I wonder who those persons are? DN? Someone else who's been on their radar?

Also interesting and sort of scary:
"Police have received more than 26,000 tips from the public, according to Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley. Investigators recently received about 200 tips after a segment about the girls aired on the “Dr. Phil” talk show, Leazenby said.

“Yeah, it’s not the thousands we were dealing with,” he said, adding that every tip could be the one that solves the killings. “At this point, I think it’s too early to say if there’s anything of value to the investigation in those, but we continue to follow the tips and leads we get.”

I would think that Dr Phil would have yielded more tips.


Indiana LE reported they obtained DN's DNA.

The only thing that makes sense to me, is that have DNA from the crime scene, but it is not know if it is the killers.

Otherwise, they'd be able to rule people out and they aren't doing that.

moo

Appears to be a new article. Sheriff Leazenby states this is not a cold case.

http://www.newsbug.info/monticello_...cle_b323b47e-f01c-11e7-9eb8-6b73cc09415a.html
 
But, if they have DN's DNA and they have it at the crime scene, then they could at least say he was there. They aren't saying anything except they can't rule him in or out, but he remains a POI as others do. So confusing imo.

It's possible some POIs (ie for example DN) are leads who do not have an alibi and who's DNA is not connected to any DNA collected from the crime scene or the nearby area. But not finding DNA could mean the perp didn't leave DNA especially if a SA didn't occur. Therefore even though there's not a match, the POIs cannot be cleared.

ETA: This could be the situation if the girls were shot as they were attempting to flee, after crossing the river in an abduction gone wrong,

JMO
 
Not that unusual in my experience, either, to hold back so much information.

I was about to comment and say the same thing about the DNA. They were found in a public park. Not only do lots of people go there, but items can find their way there by wind or water. It would be really hard to definitively say if that piece of paper, cigarette butt, Coke bottle, etc. was from the killer, from a random park visitor, or just blew in from one of the nearby houses.

Sorry, I'm just catching up. You're precisely correct, Sgt Holeman made this statement back in August. Nowhere have I noticed it stated LE has DNA that they are absolutely certain matches the killer.

....“At every crime scene, you are going to have DNA. We are still working on identifying all of the DNA that we have there,” said Sgt. Holeman...."
http://fox59.com/2017/08/14/lead-de...ave-more-audio-from-teens-phone-dna-evidence/
 
How many different DNA profiles would we expect to be on the two girls? I'd have expected family members and search team (if anyone touched them) DNA's to be easily ruled out?

The police are being incredibly secretive, I wonder why they have shared so little info. It's unusual for US police isn't it?

Trace DNA is not only left by someone touching a person. In the Jon Benet Ramsey case some believe touch DNA on her underwear was left by a Chinese manufacturing plant worker. Every chair, every car seat, every restaurant, every public washroom.....I'd imagine that anyone of us might be totally shocked at the minute particles of DNA we collect on our clothing and bodies. JMO
 
It's possible some POIs (ie for example DN) are leads who do not have an alibi and who's DNA is not connected to any DNA collected from the crime scene or the nearby area. But not finding DNA could mean the perp didn't leave DNA especially if a SA didn't occur. Therefore even though there's not a match, the POIs cannot be cleared.

ETA: This could be the situation if the girls were shot as they were attempting to flee, after crossing the river in an abduction gone wrong,

JMO
And maybe this is where cell phone data may hold the key. (The sealed subpoena dulces tecum in early Oct iir the latin correctly) was for phone data. That article where the sheriff talked about using phone data to verify or rule out POI's is interesting. So still no rule in or out for DN from a cell phone? He was really off grid that day, no car, no phone, no alibi.
Also re the sheriff comments, that is an incredibly low number of tips from the Dr Phil show. I thought they received 500? Perhaps a lot were dupes or DN .

AJMO
 
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