IN IN - Carmen Van Huss, 19, Indianapolis, 22 March 1993

[Kell1]

<rsbm>

I didn't use the term "sadistic" as a "type", but rather to describe behavior sometimes evident in murders committed by various (more than one) "types". Further, I didn't apply a "type" to this particular murder. Fifty plus stab wounds is significant, but imo it's not enough to assert whether the killer was a predator, or some guy on the edge who can't tolerate being turned down.


For reference:

http://faculty.csbsju.edu/uspp/crimpsych/CPSG-5.htm

http://www.practicalhomicide.com/Research/research.htm

http://www.practicalhomicide.com/Research/lustmurder.htm

http://www.scribd.com/doc/40094487/Psychology-of-Lust-Murder

I wasn't refuting what you wrote, I just wanted to keep it on track, it seems the minute anyone says "sadist" there its automatically a witch hunt for a serial killer, EVEN if no evidence, exists, to support the claim


You still Da Bess

 

[Kell1]

Rich I always appreciate your analyses, but I just want to clarify one part-we don't know for sure that this offender brought the murder weapon, do we? Maybe I missed something.

I have a couple questions, and if there are family/friends reading here, I apologize in advance.

Why was Carmen raised by her Aunt and Uncle? Did the Dad ever say why he wanted her to spend the night? Where was the 15 year old brother that night? Cousins?

Where is Carmen's mother? Did she have a step father?

At the risk of being entirely offensive, I feel it's a legitimate question: Has the DNA profile been checked for a familial link?

Finally, I'm going to bump the facebook page here because I think there are a couple of interesting comments:

https://m.facebook.com/pages/Justice-for-Carmen-Vanhuss/208612462636298?_rdr

Now you got me thinking, I don't recall if I saw it was brought, but I feel pretty confident they would state if it was found , what it was , and where it most likely came from if it did...

Its not unlike this type however to have a weapon on their person, as its part of the macho persona.

 

[wintermute]

Is this the same apartment that she shared with the other girls that's mentioned in the article?

The apartment she was murdered in was a studio, so I doubt that she shared it with a female friend. Studio apartments are usually very small and designed for one single person or a couple at the very most.

 

[bessie]

The apartment she was murdered in was a studio, so I doubt that she shared it with a female friend. Studio apartments are usually very small and designed for one single person or a couple at the very most.

One article said she'd once shared an apartment with three other young women. I think LR1 might have been wondering if she lived in the same complex, not necessarily the same unit.

 

[Kell1]

I agree with the power reassurance label, it does seem to fit in this instance, but I don't think we rule out the guy being a sadist or at least a developing sadist. With the neighbors being in close proximity he might not have been able to fully explore his paraphillia. Piquerism is approaching the bottom on the depravity scale. There's only three steps lower according to what I've read, they are, necrophilia, vampirism (blood draining) and cannibalism.

Yeah there are some scary behaviors out there.

IMO Mysopeds, are the worst of the worst (those who derive pleasure from sexually torturing children to death)

However, without presence of any evidence, of such, its a bit of a stretch , though not IMPOSSIBLE.

What's missing from this case, is any evidence of torture, or prolonged suffering, we can speculate that this individual may've been a fledgling Sadist, but without evidence to support it that's all we can do

I don't feel it was however, nor do I feel the stabbing was part of the paraphilia

 

[bessie]

Now you got me thinking, I don't recall if I saw it was brought, but I feel pretty confident they would state if it was found , what it was , and where it most likely came from if it did...

Its not unlike this type however to have a weapon on their person, as its part of the macho persona.

Rich, Det. Carter posted earlier in the thread that the weapon was never recovered.

Even so, LE has an idea what type of instrument was used, and whether it was similar to an ice pick, screwdriver, or hunting knife, for example. That kind of information is often released through the media, but I haven't seen it in any report I've read so far in this case, even though the number of stab wounds was made public. I'm going to (once again) ASSume there's a good reason why the info was withheld, and the latter was never meant to be released, or was only recently made public. JMO

 

[Kell1]

Rich, Det. Carter posted earlier in the thread that the weapon was never recovered.

Even so, LE has an idea what type of instrument was used, and whether it was similar to an ice pick, screwdriver, or hunting knife, for example. That kind of information is often released through the media, but I haven't seen it in any report I've read so far in this case, even though the number of stab wounds was made public. I'm going to (once again) ASSume there's a good reason why the info was withheld, and the latter was never meant to be released, or was only recently made public. JMO

Thanks Bess, that's what I thought ..... too many years of football and boxing I tell ya

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

I am not sure if I have been verified but Trish Meredith was the laundry room case. It is still open case and is not suspected of being connected to Carmen's case.

Well. If I was a betting man, I would have lost that beat. Considering the similarities between the two victims I would have bet 50/50 a match of DNA from Both sites. But I don't think they have done any testing for DNA from the Trish Meredith case yet. Though I could be wrong...But you say there not suspected of being connected so thats that.

A doctor Jekyll and Mr hide personality perhaps. One minute talking laughing, and the next stabbing her to death..........Was it suspected the rape occurred after death??

She was 19 years old. Out of high school a year or so I guess. I wonder if anyone in her school was fixated on her. Obsessed with her with or with out her knowledge.

When she arrived home, he could have introduced himself and she remembered him fro school. He may had told her he just moved in to the same apartment as she though not true but made her relax perhaps he asked her others things about whats going on in her life and being late she invited him in.......Just an out of the box theory which we do often here especially cold cases.

As for the killing itself. I am guessing of course but perhaps he blamed her for having to kill her. If she just gave him what he wanted, he would not had to have killed her. But became angry at her for having to kill her and blamed her for it. I don't think it was premeditated, But reached that conclusion so he would not be around to tell. If he had the knife already than perhaps it was. If it was a murder weapon from inside the place than I would say it was not.

 

[kilahchris]

I am curious as to why familial dna are not being used more as a tool to solve these unsolved rapes/murders?

 

[SStarr33]

I am curious as to why familial dna are not being used more as a tool to solve these unsolved rapes/murders?

Sounds like a civil rights issue.

 

[bessie]

Sounds like a civil rights issue.

That's one layer.

While familial searching may be effective given a particular set of circumstances, many questions remain. Critics argue that the practice puts unsuspecting and law-abiding citizens under genetic surveillance and violates a constitutional right to privacy that shouldn&#8217;t be surrendered just because a relative has given up his rights by committing a crime. And, because the current U.S. databases have a disproportionate number of African American and Hispanic samples, others argue the practice is a new form of racial profiling.
http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2011/09/family-feud-familial-dna-search-controversy-continues

It&#8217;s always been true that a family member&#8217;s guilty conscience could be a criminal&#8217;s ultimate downfall. Now, thanks to familial DNA matching, a brother or sister can be a snitch without ever saying a word. But what about that criminal&#8217;s cousin? Half-cousin? Third cousin twice removed?

According to researchers at the University of California-Berkeley and New York University, led by Rori Rohlfs, familial DNA searching will often indicate that two people are close relatives when they are in fact distant relatives. For instances, in an experiment that tested the process of familial DNA matching in the California DNA database (using simulated genetic profiles based on publicly available data), the researchers found that cousins could be misidentified as siblings.

This type of mistake could cost investigators a lot of time and money, as well as intrude on innocent people&#8217;s lives and privacy. Investigators may be interrogating immediate family members who have nothing to do with the crime. Or, the familial search could implicate very distant relatives&#8212;so distant that their relationship with the suspects will not be helpful to investigators at all.
http://www.psmag.com/science/the-flaws-of-familial-dna-matching-64736/

See also:
The Influence of Relatives on the Efficiency and Error Rate of Familial Searching

Policy implications for familial searching

50 Years Later, a Break in a Boston Strangler Case

 

[willcarter]

i do have one small article that just reports that it was believed she died in a struggle.

Hello. Glad you've joined us.

Do you have access to the 1993 newspaper articles about this murder?

 

[willcarter]

Some things I cant release

Welcome Sgt

Before I ask any questions, is there any aspects of this crime or its findings you are unable to disclose?

 

[Hejlena]

Will do we know her relationship with her father, brother, uncle, cousins? Where was her mother? Is there a step dad? Why was she raised by her Aunt and Uncle?

 

[willcarter]

Thank you for featuring Carmen's case. My direct number is (317)327-1270 and department email is william.carter@indy.gov if anyone has information.

 

[DeDee]

I am curious about her co-workers at Pizza Hut. Did the police interview any of the employees? An older manager maybe? I am wondering why Pizza Hut made no attempt to use the emergency contact number when Carmen didn't show up to work? What is their policy in situations where employees don't show up to work?

All good questions, LittleMissContrary.

How late do they sale beer in Indy? They can sell beer from 10am. until 10pm. where I live to a 21yo and older. Was the fast food wrapper a Pizza Hut box?

Carmen should have driven past the Pizza Hut on the way home from the hospital which is a 42 minute drive without heavy traffic. Add time for dropping the dad and brother off at their Southside home.

The route from the hospital to Turtle Creek shows they are on opposite sides of town:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Tur...e8c61b681337!2m2!1d-86.132597!2d39.637757!3e0

If she left the hospital with her grandmother sick and dying at 10:00 that places her walking down the hallway laughing and talking into her apartment with the male companion at 11:00. If it was 11:30 that she was heard in the hallway that gives her a possible 30 minutes to meet the guy and invite him into her apt.

If the screams "get off of me" or "get off me" were heard, she did not anticipate a sexual encounter. At this point, he is prob attempting to kiss her and she is forcefully pushing him away.

The killer was inside her apt. for likely two hours, if his rapid footsteps were heard departing at 1:30. Stabbing 50 times takes time even with his adrenaline pumping or maybe he took his time with his crime. But why would a rapist/murderer be satisfied by doing this just once given the murderer's need to overkill his victim, Carmen Hope?

Unless the young lady, Carmen Hope, was accustomed to being evasive with her father, why not just tell him: Oh, I can't spend the night bc I've already planned for so and so to drop by for a few minutes while I wash my uniforms for work tomorrow?

Therefore, it was an unplanned event for this person to meet up with Carmen, immho. Furthermore, Carmen had a boyfriend who was out of town and so was her ex-boyfriend. Was the boyfriend surprised she might invite another man over while he was away?

Did the killer take a shower afterwards? Surely he was covered in blood. How far did he run after leaving her door? Did he leave a blood trail? Shoeprints? Are his fingerprints on beer cans?

If he is not in CODIS, he has never been convicted of a felony.

Under the umbrella of suspicion, in no particular order:

1) [art] students where she attended classes
2) employees at Pizza Hut [Who doesn't call after an employee misses 2 days? She had worked there almost a year.]
3) the neighbor who complained to management [sure heard a lot of details not to have dialed 911 for her/his neighbor]
4) hospital employee at South Community
5) young male neighbor in apts.
6) male friend taking advantage of her boyfriend being out of town

 

[Kell1]

Some things I cant release

Understood

 

[Justiceforever]

"On March 24, Missy Hennings, who had shared a two-bedroom apartment with Van Huss and two other young women for several months, stopped by the Pizza Hut where she had previously worked to see if she could work some waitress shifts. She asked about Van Huss but managers told Hennings that Van Huss had missed a couple of days of work and didn't answer her phone."

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2014/04/19/indiana-unsolved-carmen-van-huss/7903283/

Just some thoughts...

I thought it was strange (LMC) that her job only called her emergency contact AFTER MH came in inquiring about her. Was it by her suggestion that they do so?

I have to wonder what the terms of her friendship with MH and the other ex-roomates were. Apparently they worked together as well. Was their any strain on those friendships? Jealousy?

One of these room mates could have been gossiping (purely speculation) that their ex-roomate was easy, a *advertiser censored* etc (you know how girls do). Maybe one of their male friends overheard this and got it in his head (or was intentionally encouraged to think) that he could go over there and get some sex. He gets there, she recognizes him, invites him in and is rejected and he snaps out?

It's curious and coincidental (to me) that MH would walk into a job she no longer works at and inquire about picking up shifts, right after her ex roommate/ex co worker was murdered.

I agree with the poster (RK was it?) that said the killer probably carried a knife on him as part of his macho persona. It was possibly a weapon of opportunity (something he happened to have on him), not necessarily premeditated intent.

This killer had to be a bloody mess and even if he showered it would've been on his clothes and shoes. There must be some evidence of which direction he left in.

If the neighbor heard her screaming "get off me" and the noise was enough to disturb them (it must have been loud, she was fighting for her life) why not call police? It's not from a case of minding their own business or they wouldn't have complained to the management right? Strange? I think so.

I suppose that the police probably already talked to the neighbor and ex roommates (or friends of) and ruled them out? Purely speculation but I think MH could know something or someone involved.

 

[bessie]

That leaves one type, Power Assertive rape.

The power assertive type is the second most common type of rapist .

The Power assertive, is basically your "macho" type, who feels its his right as male to take sexually that which he desires.

Date rape is not beyond his realm of behavior
Will often use enough force to force victim compliance, but will escalate along with victim resistance, (he cant let a victim, especially a female, physically or mentally dominate him)

Often meets the victim immediately prior to the attack, could be hours, or even minutes.

Demonstrates little concern for the victim, often callous indifference , will often cut (if he brought a weapon) or tear her clothes off.

Psychologically women are a means of gratification (sexual release) that's it, to him its his unwritten right as a male. Therefore he may frequent singles bars, singles events, dating sites, may frequent prostitutes, even though he may be in a relationship

If he is in a relationship, it will be one of mostly dominance by him with a somewhat submissive partner, whom he may be significantly older than.

May or may not bring a weapon, if he does its usually a weapon of choice, (knife or gun most often)

May commit multiple assaults within a small timeframe
(investigative consideration, check to see if there were any other assaults bearing this type of behavior in the hours, or days following her murder!)

he often knows his victim... which is what we all seem to identify with on this case. We know she resisted , at least verbally, which to the above type individual could trigger, an escalation of force, needed.. It may have also been a way to eliminate a witness, if he felt threatened she would call police post offense.

Though my feeling is she fought him, and he escalated, to the point he was going to "show her"

This all seems to exist in this case within a interpersonal realm with the offender and victim (She knew him)

<respectfully snipped for focus>

So Rich, I keep coming back to this nice tight profile you've put together. Understandably, we're working with limited information, but based on what we do know, this seems like a good starting point. Now what I'd like to do -- if it's possible, and I hope this makes sense -- is to step backward from here. In other words, if this is a snapshot of the person at the time of his encounter with Hope, can we develop another snapshot from earlier in the day? Who was this guy when he woke up that morning?

We've been able to narrow down some anonymous possibilities from what we know about the circumstances and Carmen's lifestyle, such as another tenant or friend of a tenant, a co-worker, a restaurant or hospital employee she encountered that night, etc. Is it feasible to knead those variables into your profile to flesh out a more rounded out picture? Why do that? I dunno, but I was just thinking that if we stick a nose and some ears on this guy, so to speak, it might jog a memory.

 

[Justiceforever]

i do have one small article that just reports that it was believed she died in a struggle.

Can you please share? TIA