IN - Couple charged with abandonment of adopted child after legally changing her age, Sept 2019

[kaen]

My impression is that they were trying to get her mental health treatment. The mental health people said N admitted to being much older, and that her condition was consistent with something that is only diagnosed in adults. And the only way to get the proper treatment was if she was an adult. So they changed her age so that she could get the treatment the mental health professionals said she needed.

I’ll have to find the links to support it, but I’m sure that’s all based on statements by Mr & Mrs Barnett.

I have worked with early teens who have many serious dx's. It is possible to get services based on her behaviors and actions with the idea that ultimately her dx would change to an adult dx. There is mental health treatment available to children and teens. In fact, it is often easier to get more intensive services for children and teens as well as respite care depending on the behavior. I know because I have helped my student's families get the services. It still does not add up. No services unless an adult is untrue. Being able to wash your hands of a mistake you made seems very true.

Biggest issue here is that if she is so disturbed, having her declared an adult means that she can refuse treatment. Whereas as a child her parents can compel her to treatment or get her committed. Parents hold the bar for a minor.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Interestingly in reading backwards (trying to find the first time the two failed adoptions were mentioned - I'm on page 10 and no mention yet ), I see that the Barrett's claim:

"Given just 24-hours to complete an emergency adoption, the couple raced to an adoption center in Florida to sign the paperwork and meet their ‘six-year-old’ daughter."

Mother claims Ukrainian adopted daughter, 9, was 22 and had dwarfism | Daily Mail Online

We know that's a lie.

And the adoption didn't go through until November. So they had her for at least six months and still went through with the adoption.

I know nothing about divorces- are those records public? Might be an interesting read....

 

[Gussified]

Ok. Or it could be that the mental health professionals were incorrect in their diagnosis, and she was suffering from something that a young teenager/preteen who had been through an extremely traumatic life, such as RAD or ODD, would be suffering. MOO.

The mental health professionals could have been wrong, but if the Barnetts were relying on their expertise, then I wouldn’t say they were just discarding N because she didn’t fit the mold of their ‘perfect’ children. They were trying to get her the help she needed.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Ok. Or it could be that the mental health professionals were incorrect in their diagnosis, and she was suffering from something that a young teenager/preteen who had been through an extremely traumatic life, such as RAD or ODD, would be suffering. MOO.

Natalia’s “miraculous recovery” lends credence IMO that Natalia fooled a lot of people. That’s what psychopaths do. They’re typically charming & pleasant until things don’t go their way.

 

[GoneGoldfishin']

The mental health professionals could have been wrong, but if the Barnetts were relying on their expertise, then I wouldn’t say they were just discarding N because she didn’t fit the mold of their ‘perfect’ children. They were trying to get her the help she needed.

I believe they were shopping around until they heard what they wanted to hear, then used it to their advantage. MOO.

 

[GoneGoldfishin']

Natalia’s “miraculous recovery” lends credence IMO that Natalia fooled a lot of people. That’s what psychopaths do. They’re typically charming & pleasant until things don’t go their way.

I think she is doing well because she lives with a truly caring family, and not with a delusional narcissist. MOO.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I think she is doing well because she lives with a truly caring family, and not with a delusional narcissist. MOO.

I don’t think hunk this is a case of all or nothing. Kristine could very well be a narcissist, or not. Natalia could be a perfectly well adjusted teenager, or an adult psychopath, the Mann’s could be perfectly lovely altruistic people. The doctors could have been fooled by a child, or not. Or any combination of the above.

Obviously, regardless of the final determination, a WHOLE LOT OF PROFESSIONAL EXPERTS got it wrong.

That’s the important take away for me.

 

[Dawn Day]

Natalia’s “miraculous recovery” lends credence IMO that Natalia fooled a lot of people. That’s what psychopaths do. They’re typically charming & pleasant until things don’t go their way.

Supposedly Natalia is so crafty, but she didn’t refuse Kristine giving her a bath? She couldn’t conceal a supposed menstral cycle? That’s simply not believable

 

[Linda7NJ]

I think she is doing well because she lives with a truly caring family, and not with a delusional narcissist. MOO.

Were the first family narcissists too?

 

[Amonet]

And that is not official IU Health stationery.

And I need to back track. Is it mentioned whether she had the Spondyloepiphyseal Dysplasia, Congenital Type or was it Tarda?

I've just read the first part of this, and I would think N has the congenital form and not the tarda form

X-linked spondyloepiphyseal dysplasia tarda

 

[Linda7NJ]

Supposedly Natalia is so crafty, but she didn’t refuse Kristine giving her a bath? She couldn’t conceal a supposed menstral cycle? That’s simply not believable

How do?
We don’t know if Kristine just walked in the bathroom.
When I did fostercare, I typically asked children that age (5 & up) if they bathed themselves, they all said yes. I’d run the bathwater for them, lay out fresh towels. Usually by day 3 they were calling me in there for help with hair or just to sit on the toilet & keep em company.

 

[kaen]

Natalia’s “miraculous recovery” lends credence IMO that Natalia fooled a lot of people. That’s what psychopaths do. They’re typically charming & pleasant until things don’t go their way.

Sorry to disagree. In the realm of adoptive children with mental health issues that is just not true. Agency after agency will talk about the dissolution process as one that is based on finding the right fit for a child. For example, if a foster child who has been incredibly abused is placed into a chaotic family with younger children where there is not enough attention paid that child may become an abuser of younger children. But, put that same child into a family that maybe has no other children or children who are more independent (based on developmental age) and that same child can thrive. I have seen adopted children who were very disturbed in the orphanage and in the adoptive home thrive when placed in a therapeutic setting or with an alternative family. There may be triggers for children in the families in which they are placed.

I do think that she has/had some mental health problems that may or may not be disclosed to us at some point. Again, regardless of her age, she would have had access to mental health care so adjusting her age did not do anything to help remedy her mental health. Your dx can change after you reach adulthood.

I find it hard to believe that after, what, almost 5 years with this current family that this child has not had some psychotic break (as you describe her as a psychotic). I have included the definition** below because I do not think it fits here. Kids with RAD or ODD or ADHD or whatever are often complicated in terms of a dx but it all shakes out into an adulthood dx and possible treatments, if we are lucky.

**"The word psychosis is used to describe conditions that affect the mind, where there has been some loss of contact with reality. When someone becomes ill in this way it is called a psychotic episode. During a period of psychosis, a person’s thoughts and perceptions are disturbed and the individual may have difficulty understanding what is real and what is not. Symptoms of psychosis include delusions (false beliefs) and hallucinations (seeing or hearing things that others do not see or hear). Other symptoms include incoherent or nonsense speech, and behavior that is inappropriate for the situation. A person in a psychotic episode may also experience depression, anxiety, sleep problems, social withdrawal, lack of motivation, and difficulty functioning overall." NIMH » What is Psychosis?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Sorry to disagree. In the realm of adoptive children with mental health issues that is just not true. Agency after agency will talk about the dissolution process as one that is based on finding the right fit for a child. For example, if a foster child who has been incredibly abused is placed into a chaotic family with younger children where there is not enough attention paid that child may become an abuser of younger children. But, put that same child into a family that maybe has no other children or children who are more independent (based on developmental age) and that same child can thrive. I have seen adopted children who were very disturbed in the orphanage and in the adoptive home thrive when placed in a therapeutic setting or with an alternative family. There may be triggers for children in the families in which they are placed.

I do think that she has/had some mental health problems that may or may not be disclosed to us at some point. Again, regardless of her age, she would have had access to mental health care so adjusting her age did not do anything to help remedy her mental health. Your dx can change after you reach adulthood.

I find it hard to believe that after, what, almost 5 years with this current family that this child has not had some psychotic break (as you describe her as a psychotic). I have included the definition** below because I do not think it fits here. Kids with RAD or ODD or ADHD or whatever are often complicated in terms of a dx but it all shakes out into an adulthood dx and possible treatments, if we are lucky.

**"The word psychosis is used to describe conditions that affect the mind, where there has been some loss of contact with reality. When someone becomes ill in this way it is called a psychotic episode. During a period of psychosis, a person’s thoughts and perceptions are disturbed and the individual may have difficulty understanding what is real and what is not. Symptoms of psychosis include delusions (false beliefs) and hallucinations (seeing or hearing things that others do not see or hear). Other symptoms include incoherent or nonsense speech, and behavior that is inappropriate for the situation. A person in a psychotic episode may also experience depression, anxiety, sleep problems, social withdrawal, lack of motivation, and difficulty functioning overall." NIMH » What is Psychosis?

I never said nor implied she was psychotic-
I said she very well could be a psychopath- otherwise known as anti-social personality disorder- sociopath- in a child its typically dx Conduct Disorder Severe

 

[gitana1]

Natalia’s “miraculous recovery” lends credence IMO that Natalia fooled a lot of people. That’s what psychopaths do. They’re typically charming & pleasant until things don’t go their way.

That may be true but what they describe are the behaviors of a child who has RAD or OPP or conduct disorder. Not an adult unless the adult is incarcerated and/or also psychotic.

Smearing bodily fluids on walls? Standing over beds with knives? Admitting readily to trying to poison them? Dragging them into an electric fence (again, that's one super humanly strong dwarf, Kristine)?

Why would an adult Natalia not only be trying to kill the people she was trying to take advantage of but was openly admitting to doing so?

It doesn't make sense to me. Did she secretly take out life insurance policies on them? Ridiculous. But even then, she wouldn't benefit by admitting to homicidal tendencies.

What's interesting is that childhood onset conduct disorder seems to resolve itself and not turn into anti-social personality disorder, in about 60% of the cases.
Conduct Disorder: Diagnosis and Treatment In Primary Care

Reactive attachment disorder can be treated and the symptoms can disappear when the child is in a nurturing, supportive environment:
What Is Reactive Attachment Disorder? - Bridges to Recovery

Kids with OPP can outgrow it or it can be successfully treated with three years of treatment.

Treatment and Outlook for Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Anti-social personality disorder (colloquially sociopathy or psychopathy) cannot be successfully treated. It doesn't disappear.

It's interesting that in six years Natalia has not developed a criminal record. She's not been in a mental hospital that we know of. She's quietly lived with the same family who seem to very much love their kids and call her their daughter, on their FB page.

So which is it? She's no longer a sociopath? She's secretly hiding it for six years as she cunningly plans to...what? How is she benefitting from this?

And which is it? Is she a manipualtive psychopath taking advantage of stupid people who are willing to care for her or is she being taken advantage of supposed baby collectors who have managed to not only bilk this insane 30 year old out of her social security monies they've also managed to control her homicidal tendencies and outrageous behaviors?

The story proposed by the Barrett's is nonsensical. It makes no sense. It's far fetched. It doesn't pass my smell test at all. It seems like they wanted to dump her and came up with a solution.

But their inconsistent statements and bizarre narrative seem like fiction. I think someone watched the Orphan and got some good ideas.

 

[Linda7NJ]

That may be true but what they describe are the behaviors of a child who has RAD or OPP or conduct disorder. Not an adult unless the adult is incarcerated and/or also psychotic.

Smearing bodily fluids on walls? Standing over beds with knives? Admitting readily to trying to poison them? Dragging them into an electric fence (again, that's one super humanly strong dwarf, Kristine)?

Why would an adult Natalia not only be trying to kill the people she was trying to take advantage of but was openly admitting to doing so?

It doesn't make sense to me. Did she secretly take out life insurance policies on them? Ridiculous. But even then, she wouldn't benefit by admitting to homicidal tendencies.

What's interesting is that childhood onset conduct disorder seems to resolve itself and not turn into anti-social personality disorder, in about 60% of the cases.
Conduct Disorder: Diagnosis and Treatment In Primary Care

Reactive attachment disorder can be treated as the symptoms can disappear when the child is in a nurturing, supportive environment:
What Is Reactive Attachment Disorder? - Bridges to Recovery

Kids with OPP can outgrow it or it can be successfully treated with three years of treatment.

Treatment and Outlook for Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Anti-social personality disorder (colloquially sociopathy or psychopathy) cannot be successfully treated. It doesn't disappear.

It's interesting that in six years Natalia has not developed a criminal record. She's not been in a mental hospital that we know of. She's quietly lived with the same family who seem to very much love their kids and call her their daughter, on their FB page.

So which is it? She's no longer a sociopath? She's secretly hiding it for six years as she cunningly plans to...what? How is she benefitting from this?

And which is it? Is she a manipualtive psychopath taking advantage of stupid people who are willing to care for her or is she being taken advantage of supposed baby collectors who have managed to not only bill this insane 30 year old out of her social security monies they've also managed to control her homicidal tendencies and outrageous behaviors?

The story proposed by the Barrett's is nonsensical. It makes no sense. It's far fetched. It doesn't pass my smell test at all. It seems like they wanted to dump her and came up with a solution.

But ther inconsistent statements and bizarre narrative seem like fiction. I think someone watched the Orphan and got some good ideas.

I don’t typically use psychopath and sociopath interchangeably.
The childhood dx you describe could also fit.

Genuine psychopaths lack remorse and empathy. They lack it by all outward appearances until they learn to fake it.

Sociopaths blend in better and can have limited empathy & remorse.

Psychopaths learn from their mistakes & they easily adapt if they choose to. Things are going her way. There’s nothing to get angry about...it’s all on the table and the Mann’s don’t care. Psychopaths act in their own best interest to get their needs met. They aren’t compelled to commit acts of violence. They do it because they WANT TO. They haven’t considered the consequences to themselves because typically they’re narcissistic and never believe they’d be caught. The acts aren’t impulsive.

You are absolutely correct. There is no treatment for psychopathy. Therapy makes psychopaths better mimics of normal behavior.

That doesn’t mean they will all be criminals, murderers or deviants - if they learn acceptable ways to meet their needs with little discomfort to themselves that the best we can hope for.

 

[gitana1]

Were the first family narcissists too?

She was younger then. The disorders that create serious behavioral problems in adopted kids can be treated and resolve, as per my earlier links. I have no doubt she had behavioral issues.

Psychopaths can't be cured.

 

[Linda7NJ]

That may be true but what they describe are the behaviors of a child who has RAD or OPP or conduct disorder. Not an adult unless the adult is incarcerated and/or also psychotic.

Smearing bodily fluids on walls? Standing over beds with knives? Admitting readily to trying to poison them? Dragging them into an electric fence (again, that's one super humanly strong dwarf, Kristine)?

Why would an adult Natalia not only be trying to kill the people she was trying to take advantage of but was openly admitting to doing so?

It doesn't make sense to me. Did she secretly take out life insurance policies on them? Ridiculous. But even then, she wouldn't benefit by admitting to homicidal tendencies.

What's interesting is that childhood onset conduct disorder seems to resolve itself and not turn into anti-social personality disorder, in about 60% of the cases.
Conduct Disorder: Diagnosis and Treatment In Primary Care

Reactive attachment disorder can be treated as the symptoms can disappear when the child is in a nurturing, supportive environment:
What Is Reactive Attachment Disorder? - Bridges to Recovery

Kids with OPP can outgrow it or it can be successfully treated with three years of treatment.

Treatment and Outlook for Oppositional Defiant Disorder

Anti-social personality disorder (colloquially sociopathy or psychopathy) cannot be successfully treated. It doesn't disappear.

It's interesting that in six years Natalia has not developed a criminal record. She's not been in a mental hospital that we know of. She's quietly lived with the same family who seem to very much love their kids and call her their daughter, on their FB page.

So which is it? She's no longer a sociopath? She's secretly hiding it for six years as she cunningly plans to...what? How is she benefitting from this?

And which is it? Is she a manipualtive psychopath taking advantage of stupid people who are willing to care for her or is she being taken advantage of supposed baby collectors who have managed to not only bill this insane 30 year old out of her social security monies they've also managed to control her homicidal tendencies and outrageous behaviors?

The story proposed by the Barrett's is nonsensical. It makes no sense. It's far fetched. It doesn't pass my smell test at all. It seems like they wanted to dump her and came up with a solution.

But ther inconsistent statements and bizarre narrative seem like fiction. I think someone watched the Orphan and got some good ideas.

According to Kristine she spent 9 weeks being evaluated in a mental hospital and prior to that she was in & out of a crisis hospitalization

 

[gitana1]

How do?
We don’t know if Kristine just walked in the bathroom.
When I did fostercare, I typically asked children that age (5 & up) if they bathed themselves, they all said yes. I’d run the bathwater for them, lay out fresh towels. Usually by day 3 they were calling me in there for help with hair or just to sit on the toilet & keep em company.

She said she gave her a bath.

‘I was giving her a bath and I noticed that she had full pubic hair. I was so shocked. I had just been told she was a six year old and it was very apparent she wasn't,’ she added.

 

[kaen]

I never said nor implied she was psychotic-
I said she very well could be a psychopath- otherwise known as anti-social personality disorder- sociopath- in a child its typically dx Conduct Disorder Severe

"Natalia’s “miraculous recovery” lends credence IMO that Natalia fooled a lot of people. That’s what psychopaths do."

She could have stayed a minor and still had a dx that could have gotten her treatment and kept her within the juvenile system. And then, graduated to an adult dx when she was 18.

Anti-Social Personality Disorder (ASPD) and psychosis are two very different diagnoses. ASPD's precursor in childhood happens to be Conduct Disorder (CD). CD has a component of aggressiveness and harming others. ADHD can also be seen in children with CD. Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD) is similar to CD except you generally don't see children with ODD exhibit aggression to humans or animals or be as anti-social. Some with ODD can be elevated to CD is the behaviors escalate. The dx changes in adulthood to ASPD. Psychopath is not a DSM term in reality.

 

[gitana1]

According to Kristine she spent 9 weeks being evaluated in a mental hospital and prior to that she was in & out of a crisis hospitalization

Yes. And since then she hasn't been. Nor has she acquired a criminal record. Again, the childhood diagnoses that can manifest in the behaviors Kristine described can be successfully treated or managed and kids can actually outgrow them in some cases.

You can't outgrow or successfully treat anti-social personality disorder. So her past treatment and apparent stability since going to a new family support her having been a child with the Barrett's. Not a 20 year old.