IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #5

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neesaki said:
Sure. Have you actually viewed the video ? It speaks for itself.
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I think Forever Young is making a legitimate point here. The defense will argue that when SA leaned over, he was still inside the ship (ie. his head didn’t go past the window ledge) and thus he could still have thought the window was closed. Technically, nowhere on the video angles released to the public can we definitively see SA’s head or arms go past the window ledge.

Some posters have described a moment in the video when you see Chloe’s arm outside of window in the area where 1/4 of the window is still in the frame. I’ve watched this part countless times and while it does look like her arm is out past the ledge, it is still not crystal clear and I think it is possible she was still within the ship’s parameters.

Perhaps a new angle view will be released and we can have more definitive proof?
 
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Chikkamma said:
If his alleged colorblindness was so severe that he could not distinguish a tinted window from open air, I am sure his disability would have caused him enough problems prior to this for which he would have sought medical attention.
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ESPECIALLY working in IT.
Blue screen of death anyone?
Blue hyperlinks?
There's just no way it is that severe.

Again, I asked several people who are color blind. 2 of whom are also in IT. ALL of whom could easily tell which windows were open. From across deck 11, to up close. Even noticing an open window I had missed.

The color blindness is totally not even relevant.
 
A link. Begnaud, Some questions.
MyBelle said:
I don't understand what point you are trying to make. A person is color blind at birth so when SA was diagnosed is irrelevant. It really doesn't matter when Begnaud was shown the medical records. Begnaud obviously believes SA is color blind. Begnaud has no reason to lie about it. JMO
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@MyBelle :) A link and some questions.
1. "A person is color blind at birth"
Like you, I was under the impression that CBness was congenital. Not necessarily, per Color blindness - Wikipedia. Everyday on websleuths, I learn something new.
2 Causes
2. "when SA was diagnosed is irrelevant"
If SA was diagnosed after Chloe's death, may be an indication his CB. condition developed as a result of one of the above. Or may be an indication SA fabricated his symptoms. I'm not saying he fabricated symptoms, but if he did, timing of diagnosis seems relevant imo.

3. "Begnaud obviously believes SA is color blind"
I missed the part where Begnaud said he believes this. Can you pls give link & time stamp? Not sure how a reporter's beliefs about accuracy of a purported medical diagnosis is relevant.

4. "Begnaud has no reason to lie about it."
Is ^ post saying/assuming if a reporter has no reason to lie about information he's reporting in a given assignment, that his news story is accurate?
Just wondering.
 
Chikkamma said:
Do you think this because of the side view video? From the side view, we cannot actually see the window ledge. The white barrier his body seems to cross (from the side angle) is one of the poles supporting the guardrail. The window ledge is at least a foot out in front of him and not visible to us from the side view.

Could it be there is a mistaking of the pole holding up the railing for the window ledge (in the side view)? Or did you spot a frame in the video where his head is definitively sticking out past the window ledge?
Click to expand...

I would post photos and screenshots but all the jpg are too big for WS.
 
Possible Defense Witnesses for SA? Testifying to What? Revisited
MyBelle said:
At trial, the burden will be on the prosecution, not the defense..... JMO
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@MyBelle :) sbm Snipped for focus. Cutting & pasting my post below, for easy ref and for context for your comments.
My post discussed various matters about which defense witnesses may be permitted to testify by rules of evidence. Or not. Did not discuss burden. imo
-------------------------------------------- ------------------
Possible Defense Witnesses for SA? Testifying to What?
@mickey2942 :)
Aside from dr. re colorblindness & SA in own defense, what can SA’s wife, AW, & KSW say?

Imo they cannot testify re SA's actions & stmts while SA 'supervised' C - say, 10 - 30 - 45 min's - before SA dropped Chloe, because presumably SA's wife, KSW, and AW were not there in H2O Zone or close to Squeeze. Presumably the other Gr'parents were not there either.

Possibly could testify re SA's actions & stmts after he dropped her; imo could be relevant and admissible as part of the sentencing. But IDK how that couId be admissible to negate any element of the crime, IOW to prevent his conviction.
 
Chikkamma said:
Even if he not see the difference in window color, surely SA would have noticed the 1/3 of window (including the handle) still in the window frame. This would be an indication to a person with eyes that this is a window that has been slid open.
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unless you're slightly inebriated....breathalyzer would have helped (or hurt) here.
 
Did PR Release the Vids? Parents Demand Investigation?
MyBelle said:
.... Now that PR decided to leak the video after the parents specifically said they had seen the video and didn't want it published in order to protect their son from it, it got leaked to further humiliate the parents because they filed a civil lawsuit. JMO
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MyBelle said:
Grandfather offered plea deal in girl's cruise ship death as Puerto Rico TV show airs video
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@MyBelle bbm sbm

From CBS News Dec. 18 article linked in above post, not clear to me who released vids.
"We are unaware of how Kobbo Santarrosa obtained the video of the unfortunate incident where Chloe Wiegand lost her life," Attorney General Dennise Longo Quiñones told CBS News." Could this PR official have made an inaccurate or false stmt? Sure. But multiple other entities had (copies of) the vids and could have released them. Imo, doubtful they were released to humiliate parents for filing suit.

In demanding an “independent investigation” into who “leaked” the vids, Chloe’s Mother is acting as if she & Chloe’s Father had solid basis for suppressing the vids, but imo, she is grasping at spiderwebs.
These vids are not top secret, classified government recordings. From a commonsense legal angle, the vids themselves are the property of the cruiseline. RCCL’s “Cruise Contract” terms allow cruiseline to record photos, audios, & videos of passengers, use them for virtually any purpose, and display & “distribute it in any type of media.*

-------------------------------------------------------
* Royal Caribbean Cruises: Vacations and Cruise Deals Scroll down to bottom of home page, to “Cruise Contract” paragraph 14 Including "exclusive right throughout the universe and in perpetuity to include photographic, video"
 
al66pine said:
Did PR Release the Vids? Parents Demand Investigation?
@MyBelle bbm sbm

From CBS News Dec. 18 article linked in above post, not clear to me who released vids.
"We are unaware of how Kobbo Santarrosa obtained the video of the unfortunate incident where Chloe Wiegand lost her life," Attorney General Dennise Longo Quiñones told CBS News." Could this PR official have made an inaccurate or false stmt? Sure. But multiple other entities had (copies of) the vids and could have released them. Imo, doubtful they were released to humiliate parents for filing suit.

In demanding an “independent investigation” into who “leaked” the vids, Chloe’s Mother is acting as if she & Chloe’s Father had solid basis for suppressing the vids, but imo, she is grasping at spiderwebs.
These vids are not top secret, classified government recordings. From a commonsense legal angle, the vids themselves are the property of the cruiseline. RCCL’s “Cruise Contract” terms allow cruiseline to record photos, audios, & videos of passengers, use them for virtually any purpose, and display & “distribute it in any type of media.*

-------------------------------------------------------
* Royal Caribbean Cruises: Vacations and Cruise Deals Scroll down to bottom of home page, to “Cruise Contract” paragraph 14 Including "exclusive right throughout the universe and in perpetuity to include photographic, video"
Click to expand...
Agree al66pine. Also, in one of the statements you quoted they said that “the parents had specifically said they had seen the video...” but I can find no such statement about them acknowledging they have seen the video. Has anyone else? If yes, please provide link. I would like to read/view.
 
Chikkamma said:
Some posters have described a moment in the video when you see Chloe’s arm outside of window in the area where 1/4 of the window is still in the frame. I’ve watched this part countless times and while it does look like her arm is out past the ledge, it is still not crystal clear and I think it is possible she was still within the ship’s parameters.
Click to expand...
Well she didn't stay "within the Ships parameters". And unless she somehow see a leap for it, he had her at least as far out as the window ledge at some point.
 
al66pine said:
In demanding an “independent investigation” into who “leaked” the vids, Chloe’s Mother is acting as if she & Chloe’s Father had solid basis for suppressing the vids, but imo, she is grasping at spiderwebs.
These vids are not top secret, classified government recordings. From a commonsense legal angle, the vids themselves are the property of the cruiseline. RCCL’s “Cruise Contract” terms allow cruiseline to record photos, audios, & videos of passengers, use them for virtually any purpose, and display & “distribute it in any type of media.*
Click to expand...
^^sbm

Of course the videos are not classified government property but they are evidence in criminal and civil proceedings for use in separate trials that have not yet commenced. The only saving grace for the Attorney General is that the prosecution recently shared the surveillance video with the defense in discovery. If ever there was a need for a gag order I think it's in Puerto Rico to protect these proceedings.

This video belongs in the courtroom and not the public domain. I've no doubt that RCCL is equally mortified that a video depicting the horrific death of a child is being marketed thanks to the Puerto Rican custodians. It's equally disgusting that the plaintiff's attorney is hosting video viewing appointments with MSM news networks. I really hope its release or leakage doesn't somehow backfire and prevent the People from obtaining justice for baby Chloe.

While it's true the ship surveillance video is their property, I believe you are mistaken in your interpretation that RCCL somehow considers this tragic video their "media product" pursuant to terms of the cruise contract.

MOO
 
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Video Showing Final Moments Before Baby Falls Off Cruise Ship Leaked

Dec 24, 2019

The video involving the final moments of one-year-old kid Chloe Wiegand, who fell from a Royal Caribbean cruise ship in San Juan, Puerto Rico has been leaked and was telecast on Tuesday in a private channel.

The video was broadcast on the Puerto Rican station Mega TV. The family is upset by the public display of the video.

According to the USA Today report, the silent footage of the July 7 incident forms a crucial part of two cases related to Chloe's death.

There is a criminal case against Anello, the child’s grandfather charging negligent homicide. If convicted, he will face three years in prison.

[..]

Who leaked it?

There is no clue on who had leaked the footage, and how it will impact the pending litigation.

Michael Winkleman, the attorney representing the Wiegand family allowed the media team to view the video to know what is inside it.

“The family publicly asks the Puerto Rican authorities, why was this footage released?” the Wiegand family said in a statement released through Winkleman.

Probe sought

It asked why they are inflicting such emotional distress on the family and called for an independent investigation into the leak.

The USA Today report said the footage showed Anello lifting Chloe and prodding her to bang on the window. The office of Puerto Rico Attorney General Dennise N. Longo Quiñones said her office has no idea how the media outlet got the video.

But the statement of AG added: “A careful review of video confirms Salvatore Anello is guilty of negligent homicide as charged.”

This, however, contradicts the scenario mentioned in the lawsuit filed by the family against the cruise line.

[..]

Royal Caribbean declined to comment on the leak and court cases.
 
jeena said:
Since I haven't been on a cruise in years I am ignorant about the available technology on ships. So are you saying cell phones can only be used in port because of acceess to land based cell towers nearby? Cell phones must work at sea until the ship gets too far away from the cell towers, correct? BTW, I hope you had a great time on your cruise, and that window photo you took doesn't look good for SA's defense. How can he not tell the window was open at that short distance from the railing? Thanks for posting it.
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Yes that’s what I meant by access to local towers.
Once we leave port I turn onto airplane mode.

I only wish I could post more photos but unfortunately the same type photos taken by the same camera/phone are too large for WS. They also post sideways and if I change them WS site won’t accept them. It’s disheartening.
 
Chikkamma said:
I think Forever Young is making a legitimate point here. The defense will argue that when SA leaned over, he was still inside the ship (ie. his head didn’t go past the window ledge) and thus he could still have thought the window was closed. Technically, nowhere on the video angles released to the public can we definitively see SA’s head or arms go past the window ledge.

Some posters have described a moment in the video when you see Chloe’s arm outside of window in the area where 1/4 of the window is still in the frame. I’ve watched this part countless times and while it does look like her arm is out past the ledge, it is still not crystal clear and I think it is possible she was still within the ship’s parameters.

Perhaps a new angle view will be released and we can have more definitive proof?
Click to expand...

I think that the prosecution will be able to prove how far SA's head extended through demonstrating some measurements.

For example, if we look at the photo TGY posted (below) and compare it to the bent-over portion of SA's body that extended over the safety rail ..... I think we will find that at least a good portion of his head extended past the window ledge, and that his body was too far extended over the safety rail for him to have just been bending his head to look down between the window and the safety rail.

I think it will be a logical and measured conclusion. I don't think that it will be left up to individual perspectives.

z.JPG z1.JPG
 
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they'll get you said:
My brother’s cabin attendant was on the Costa Concordia and he was genuinely upset with the memories.
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I have thought about how the person who opened the window where Chloe fell must feel. Just another "what if" in this tragic event.
And I hope they don't dwell on the thought that they opened that window ... they couldn't possibly know that a numbskull would place their little grandchild over a safety rail and into that open window.
 
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