IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #5

[neesaki]

Thank you so much. I only have an IPad, not a laptop, but I'll see if I can figure out how to highlight and delete an entire post.

Have you tried touching the screen until the “select all” option pops up? Then you can either click “cut” or on the little scissors icon and cut the post out.
Or if just want to remove part of a post, click on “select” , then move the little blue line and highlight what you want to remove then click “cut”.
It is faster than back spacing.

 

[al66pine]

Quick Errand? Something Else Too? SA's Feeling?

Chloe was in the care of one of those grandparents for a brief period of time, and we all know what happened. I would have insisted on a strategic plan for when Chloe would be cared for and by whom. KW's random choice to let SA watch Chloe - by himself - while she ran a quick errand turned out to be a tragic decision.

@BetteDavisEyes bbm
Complaint* omits mention of Mom's location while SA tended Chloe. Not that it is relevant to complaint itself, but likely imo, some evd on this will be given at trial. What will it be?

Q1. Mom's estimated time for cruise matter.
How long did Mom think ^ would take? 10-15 min, 30 min?
Q2. Choosing someone to care for Chloe? Did Mom ask SA? Did he volunteer? Did his wife 'volunteer' him? Did others have a service/activity booked? Massage? Surf-Rider? Laser Tag? (Self-booked nap?)
Q3. How did Mom describe estimated length of her projected absence? A "few minutes" or "little while" or "about an hour." What were her words?

Q4. Did SA interpret ^ as 10-15 min, 30 min, or _?
Q5. As time passed w Chloe, what was SA’s feeling? Not happy that it took longer? Needed to answer a call of nature? Wanted a ciggie? A drink? Impatient? Feeling hot & sunburned? Short w Chloe? Or ???
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* From Complaint, starting in paragraph 11:
~ 2:40 Mom & Chloe "began to play in the pool(s)..."
~ 3:50 Mom "needed to go help with an issue related to the cruise."
Shortly after 4:00 Chloe walked to wall.
BTW, was all of Mom's absence actually due to the cruise matter? Or after handling the cruise matter, did she do something else? A nap? 'Alone time' w AW? Likely not relevant.

 

[they'll get you]

That’s a good point about the contact DNA. Also I kept thinking, that metal railing must have been so hot to sit on in her swimsuit, wonder if that’s why she “slipped”

So many things disregarded that any normal adult would have considered for a child’s BASIC safety.

Was there a report that Chloe screamed?

 

[jeena]

@jeena ; well don't feel too bad... you didn't bring up the Disney gator posts.
Someone else did to make their point.
And you just politely responded.

As far as RCCL settling-- they more than likely will not as it would set a terrible precedent.
Other 'accident's involving toddlers or babies would multiply massively.
People looking for a payout.

This cruise line goes above and beyond to ensure the safety of their passengers.
They are a business and no one wants to say they're responsible for killing a baby when they know they did nothing of the sort.
This lawsuit is vulgar and greedy.

Everyone including the Wiegands knows that this was never the ships' fault.
The defensive support and love for S.A. from Chloe's parents is beyond comprehension.
It's neither shock nor guilt, as they knew this man for many years and what his past driving records was, to name a few of S.A.'s behaviors.
Besides S.A.'s flagrant disregard for the law he must have other faults that were overlooked.
So it must be something else going on. Who knows ?

Thanks! Honestly, I thought about Lane reading about CW so when he was mentioned here my heart sank and I replied.

I can't imagine being the adored, lovely child of a lawyer and a police officer, and not being kept safe. Hard to believe KW or AW never saw SA as an incompetent caregiver, too say the least.

 

[jeena]

That’s a good point about the contact DNA. Also I kept thinking, that metal railing must have been so hot to sit on in her swimsuit, wonder if that’s why she “slipped”

So many things disregarded that any normal adult would have considered for a child’s BASIC safety.

Thanks! Good point about heated window frame!

 

[al66pine]

Was there a report that Chloe screamed?

Yes, in Daily Mail Oct 28, w news about SA's arrest. A "blood curdling scream."
IIRC, an early DM article (~July 9 or 10) also referred to her scream on the way down.
Did not say who heard it, ppl on dock, or ppl on Deck 11, or others.

Salvatore 'Sam' Anello charged over death of Chloe Wiegand on cruise ship | Daily Mail Online

 

[Lawnguylander1964]

Various news articles talk about a scream, many said it was the mother, but it could have been SA depending on where they were. They say the scream they heard was like nothing else they had ever heard.

"Witnesses said the mother's anguished cry did “not compare to any other scream.”

There is another more graphic one that I won't post, but it leads me to believe people think SA's scream was the mother's.

 

[SeattleStew]

When SA squats down by the pillar he turns his head at one point and looks at the man at the window. He’s crouched down and turns his head left to look at the guy.

Watching the new episode of La Comay, thank you @Chikkamma.

When I see SA squatting next to that pole just before he goes over to the window, I wonder if he is doing some kind of holding his pee posture? I may have employed this maneuver once or twice in my life myself. This whole case is nuts, so I will just put out there was SA impatient with Chloe because he needed to use the bathroom? Are there family bathrooms on that deck, or gender specific?

 

[Arkay]

Have you tried touching the screen until the “select all” option pops up? Then you can either click “cut” or on the little scissors icon and cut the post out.
Or if just want to remove part of a post, click on “select” , then move the little blue line and highlight what you want to remove then click “cut”.
It is faster than back spacing.

Thank you. I will try that the next time I screw up a post, because I know there will be a next time!

 

[sl222]

Various news articles talk about a scream, many said it was the mother, but it could have been SA depending on where they were. They say the scream they heard was like nothing else they had ever heard.

"Witnesses said the mother's anguished cry did “not compare to any other scream.”

There is another more graphic one that I won't post, but it leads me to believe people think SA's scream was the mother's.

Both screams were reported but for obvious reasons the mother's one was the one repeated in the news. We posted about that a long while back in previous threads.

 

[sl222]

The reason that Chloe's scream matters is because a lot of people had a natural wish to believe that Chloe had no idea what was happening and did not suffer because she was so young. But as we have all heard throughout our lives, one of the 2 fears we are all born with is the fear of falling. I don't want to speculate about anything (though I have done plenty in the past). Just going with the facts that have been reported. I realize that pointing this out adds to the parents' sorrow and that's not my desire to do. But - part of this crime is that the victim suffered. I still will never be able to figure out what SA was "on" to act in this manner. (Maybe he wasn't on anything but he sure acted like he was.)

 

[neesaki]

The reason that Chloe's scream matters is because a lot of people had a natural wish to believe that Chloe had no idea what was happening and did not suffer because she was so young. But as we have all heard throughout our lives, one of the 2 fears we are all born with is the fear of falling. I don't want to speculate about anything (though I have done plenty in the past). Just going with the facts that have been reported. I realize that pointing this out adds to the parents' sorrow and that's not my desire to do. But - part of this crime is that the victim suffered. I still will never be able to figure out what SA was "on" to act in this manner. (Maybe he wasn't on anything but he sure acted like he was.)

Just thinking of her falling like that is painful... can’t imagine it. And makes me so angry. And ITA, his actions are inexplicable and unbelievable. Maybe that’s what makes some of us try so hard to figure out an explanation. How. Why.

 

[BrownRice]

I just can’t imagine SA did this intentionally. I mean why would he? It was the first day of the cruise. Hadn’t even settled in yet. It has to be an accident caused solely by his negligence.

I don’t understand the parents support of him though. Regardless, I’m so sorry for their loss. I wouldn’t be able to watch the video either if it was my baby.

 

[MsMarple]

The reason that Chloe's scream matters is because a lot of people had a natural wish to believe that Chloe had no idea what was happening and did not suffer because she was so young. But as we have all heard throughout our lives, one of the 2 fears we are all born with is the fear of falling. I don't want to speculate about anything (though I have done plenty in the past). Just going with the facts that have been reported. I realize that pointing this out adds to the parents' sorrow and that's not my desire to do. But - part of this crime is that the victim suffered. I still will never be able to figure out what SA was "on" to act in this manner. (Maybe he wasn't on anything but he sure acted like he was.)

Hopefully the report of Chloe screaming as she fell is false. The estimated time it took for her to fall is about 3.4 seconds at 64 fps, 44 mph. IMO it happened so quickly that Chloe didn't have time to scream or even understand what was happening. At least I hope so.

The DM article didn't name a source for that statement so I'm taking it with a large grain of salt. Most of the results in my search talk about KW and SA screaming.

ETA: To add, if there is a witness to Chloe screaming as she fell you can bet that Winkleman would have included it in his complaint.

 

[justbreathe]

Various news articles talk about a scream, many said it was the mother, but it could have been SA depending on where they were. They say the scream they heard was like nothing else they had ever heard.

"Witnesses said the mother's anguished cry did “not compare to any other scream.”

There is another more graphic one that I won't post, but it leads me to believe people think SA's scream was the mother's.

There was also a report she hit an awning, but I can’t see where there would be an awning on the way down. Still a lot of unknowns.

 

[justbreathe]

The reason that Chloe's scream matters is because a lot of people had a natural wish to believe that Chloe had no idea what was happening and did not suffer because she was so young. But as we have all heard throughout our lives, one of the 2 fears we are all born with is the fear of falling. I don't want to speculate about anything (though I have done plenty in the past). Just going with the facts that have been reported. I realize that pointing this out adds to the parents' sorrow and that's not my desire to do. But - part of this crime is that the victim suffered. I still will never be able to figure out what SA was "on" to act in this manner. (Maybe he wasn't on anything but he sure acted like he was.)

What is the other fear?

I used to think fear of fire was innate until my dog tried to sniff fire. Like a real close sniff... smh...

I also think not being in full possession of his senses, for whatever reason, is part of why this happened.

 

[al66pine]

Using Evd from Civil Trial in Crim Trial?

.... Criminal and civil courts are different court systems and the burden of proof is different for each.
What I'm not clear on is whether or not evidence and judgments from either case can be used as evidence in the other. All MOO.

@MsMarple View attachment 223553 sbm Good point about the different burdens of proof and different courts. Altho they arise from same event (Chloe's death), there are no parties in common to the cases.
Prosecutor - Plaintiff..vs....Defendant...Civ - Crim ....Court........Burden of Proof .................. Crim Chg or Tort
Govmt of PR.......... vs.......SA..........Criminal ... PR......... Beyond Reas Doubt......... Neg Homicide
Parents of Chloe....vs........RCCL....... Civil ........ US Dist....Preponderance/Evd .........Wrongful Death

Re using evd at later trial, are you thinking of an example like --- a civil trial witness testifies about what he saw SA doing at the window w Chloe, then the prosecutor wants to present an audio-video recording or the court reporter's transcript of that witness' testimony in the crim trial as evd against SA?
Sorry to say, the prosecutor is out of luck on trying to use that recording or transcript to prove what the witness said about SA's actions.

To 'use that evd' from civil trial at criminal trial, prosecutor must put that same witness on stand in crim trial.
Why? Because crim defendant/def.atty - has right to cross examine witnesses against him, and this def-SA/def atty did not have opportunity to cross examine Wit. at civil trial. Remember, crim def-SA is/was not a party in the civil suit.
Exceptions? Yes, 'Prior Inconsistent Statements' by witness is one, but that’s another, later post.

 

[justbreathe]

I just can’t imagine SA did this intentionally. I mean why would he? It was the first day of the cruise. Hadn’t even settled in yet. It has to be an accident caused solely by his negligence.

I don’t understand the parents support of him though. Regardless, I’m so sorry for their loss. I wouldn’t be able to watch the video either if it was my baby.

I wouldn’t want to watch it either. But do they think going to trial is going to shield them? They might be able to avoid it in the criminal trial, which really has nothing to do with them.

But during the civil trial they will for sure be confronted with SA’s videotaped actions, and questions about whether they think this was reasonable.

I imagine they will cut before she actually disappears.

 

[IceIce9]

There was also a report she hit an awning, but I can’t see where there would be an awning on the way down. Still a lot of unknowns.

I heard that but couldn’t find the source.

Anyone know who saw her hit the awning?

 

[MsMarple]

Using Evd from Civil Trial in Crim Trial?
@MsMarple View attachment 223553 sbm Good point about the different burdens of proof and different courts. Altho they arise from same event (Chloe's death), there are no parties in common to the cases.
Prosecutor - Plaintiff..vs....Defendant...Civ - Crim ....Court........Burden of Proof .................. Crim Chg or Tort
Govmt of PR.......... vs.......SA..........Criminal ... PR......... Beyond Reas Doubt......... Neg Homicide
Parents of Chloe....vs........RCCL....... Civil ........ US Dist....Preponderance/Evd .........Wrongful Death

Re using evd at later trial, are you thinking of an example like --- a civil trial witness testifies about what he saw SA doing at the window w Chloe, then the prosecutor wants to present an audio-video recording or the court reporter's transcript of that witness' testimony in the crim trial as evd against SA?
Sorry to say, the prosecutor is out of luck on trying to use that recording or transcript to prove what the witness said about SA's actions.

To 'use that evd' from civil trial at criminal trial, prosecutor must put that same witness on stand in crim trial.
Why? Because crim defendant/def.atty - has right to cross examine witnesses against him, and this def-SA/def atty did not have opportunity to cross examine Wit. at civil trial. Remember, crim def-SA is/was not a party in the civil suit.
Exceptions? Yes, 'Prior Inconsistent Statements' by witness is one, but that’s another, later post.

I'm pretty sure that either case can call eyewitnesses though whether they will or not is up to the various attorneys. And I agree that a recording or a transcript may or may not fly in either case although I would think a live video conference call would be fine.

What I was wondering about is whether or not all evidence from one trial would apply to the other. For example, the discussion about the standards used for window construction. It may be used in the civil trial but may be irrelevant in the criminal trial.

Also, if the civil trial concludes first or is settled can SA's attorney or the DA bring the verdict and any award to the criminal trial? It seems to me it that they could not but I'm not 100% sure. No matter the outcome.

OTOH, if the criminal trial concludes first or is settled could the verdict be brought to the civil trial? IMO maybe but again I'm not 100% sure.

IOW it may be that the result of the criminal charge may have more impact on the civil case than vice versa. MOO.