IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #8

[mheido67]

The lawsuit is based on the cruise ship faulty windows resulting in Chloe's death. MW has repeatedly said the window safety must be addressed to prevent more children from injury. He has even went as far to say they do not meet standard window safety. I've have searched the internet for any thing that says what industry standard for cruise ship windows are and haven't come up with anything. I don't believe there is an actual standard for cruise ship windows. In the media thread, there is this which explains RCCL policies. IMO the judge in the civil case will consider this as an important part of whether this cruise ship windows are a safety fault. If the case is not dismissed, then certainly the lawyers for RCCL will bring this into their defense.

Yes, MW has centered his case on the hope that a judge and jury will agree that safety standards developed and put in place to regulate construction on land for residentual buildings should also be understood as applying to ocena going vessels. RCCL has unequivocally rejected this assertion. There are no specific codes regarding window safety written specifically for cruise ships, or any ocean going vessel for that matter. All operators of ocean going vessels that carry passengers are required to develop and file a ship safety plan. These plans focus on safety in the event of an emergency and things like food and waste safety. They do not include anything about operable windows. ASTM standards were not intended to apply to ocean going vessels. Additionally, and I believe RCCL stated this in their motion to dismiss, the window safety standards MW cites in his complaint are intended to protect children from being able to harm themselves by falling out of windows by themselves. They are not intended to protect children from the negligent actions of their negligent adult guardians, aka SA.

 

[al66pine]

SA's Written Statement, Released Feb 26
In case anyone missed it, tail end of cbsnews.com story* this a.m. has a pdf of SA's
~ 1 1/2 page written statement from scribd.
Team Winkleman's fingerprints all over it --- phrasing & tone.

* Man will plead guilty in granddaughter's cruise ship death to "end part of this nightmare"

 

[mheido67]

I think it has a lot to do with it. And you are rationalizing and talking out of both sides of your mouth. You state this happened in 3 seconds So again if he HONESTLY thought the glass was there, his immediate reaction would be which of the following: "oh my god I made a horrible mistake and the glass wasn't there" or "the glass fell out!"

It's clear he knew the glass wasn't there. No one who honestly thought one thing could do a complete reversal in a matter of seconds like that. Think of a situation where you thought your child was behind you and you suddenly realize it's not your child it's another child. It takes 3 seconds alone JUST to realize you made a mistake. It takes way longer for your brain to reboot and figure out what's going on.

You are acting like him knowing he killed her in 3 seconds is the same thing as him going from "glass is there, I'll let Chloe beat on the glass" to "she fell" to "the glass isn't there" to "the glass fell out" to "the glass didn't fall out" to "oh my god I made a mistake there was never glass in the window" according to your count in 3 seconds.

Not possible.

Answer me this, how much time transpired between the time she left his grip and the time he said anything about the glass either falling out or the glass disappearing? You don't know. No one on this board knows. Honestly, I see no problem with him thinking there was glass, she falls, he sees she is outside the ship and him realizing, oh my god there was no glass all in a matter of seconds. You've constructed some imaginary sequence of events that you believe must have happened that has no basis in reality.

 

[neesaki]

He didn't lean OUT the window because he didn't think she was outside the window. It's quite simple really. Again, all this transpired in 3 seconds. If you want to quibble about what words he would have said once the full gravity of what had happened dawned on him in the following moments well I don't think arguing what someone in shock should have said is really worth it.

He didn’t lean out the window? Where is this coming from, the video clearly shows his head OUT the window. Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying.

 

[al66pine]

SA Stmt. Other Children's Deaths.
SA's stmt * says other ppl sent letters of sympathy w their stories.
"One woman told me the tragic story of how she and her husband lost their baby girl when her husband's practice golf ball ricocheted off of a tree. Another older gentleman told the story of how he and his recently deceased wife lost their youngest baby 25 years ago when they placed her in the grocery portion of a shopping cart and the toddler leaned over and fell out...
"Both letters expressed how horrible it would have been if they had to face prosecution after these unthinkable accidents." bbm

I hesitate to comment re ^ w'out knowing more about circumstances, as I don't want to derail thread.
However is a toddler in grocery section of shopping cart falling out of it "an unthinkable accident?"
Falling from height of 30+ (?) inches onto hard surface? Is toddler's fall itself an accident? Hopefully: just a bruise or two; but foreseeably: broken bone(s), paralysis, traumatic brain inj. "Unthinkable" aspect is death resulting from fall, not the fall itself. jmo. Back to Chloe.

* Man will plead guilty in granddaughter's cruise ship death to "end part of this nightmare"

 

[Chewy]

Yes we do know.

Answer me this, how much time transpired between the time she left his grip and the he said anything about the glass either falling out or the glass disappearing? You don't know. No one on this board knows. Honestly, I see no problem with him thinking there was glass, she falls, he sees she is outside the ship and him realizing, oh my god there was no glass all in a matter of seconds. You've constructed some imaginary sequence of events that you believe must have happened that has no basis in reality.

Yes we do know. We can see it in the video

ETA. Unless the bystanders remembered wrong and he didn"t
immediately say those statements but said them a few minutes later which is a possibility.

 

[MsMarple]

The lawsuit is based on the cruise ship faulty windows resulting in Chloe's death. MW has repeatedly said the window safety must be addressed to prevent more children from injury. He has even went as far to say they do not meet standard window safety. I've have searched the internet for any thing that says what industry standard for cruise ship windows are and haven't come up with anything. I don't believe there is an actual standard for cruise ship windows. In the media thread, there is this which explains RCCL policies. IMO the judge in the civil case will consider this as an important part of whether this cruise ship windows are a safety fault. If the case is not dismissed, then certainly the lawyers for RCCL will bring this into their defense.

IMO the only way to guarantee that no other child will suffer the same fate as Chloe is to ban SA from any and all cruises.

As predicted, SA continues to blame RCL for his disgusting, reckless act. He claims he's pleading guilty for the $ake of the family. He adds in stories of all the letters of love and support from other dingleberries who caused injuries due to their own reckless behavior. Gee, who'd a thunk it?

Yes I'm pissed.

 

[sl222]

SA's Written Statement, Released Feb 26
In case anyone missed it, tail end of cbsnews.com story* this a.m. has a pdf of SA's
~ 1 1/2 page written statement from scribd.
Team Winkleman's fingerprints all over it --- phrasing & tone.

* Man will plead guilty in granddaughter's cruise ship death to "end part of this nightmare"

Thanks for that. His statement is about him, and finally mentions Chloe. And his statement is complete BS.

"Not drinking" - so either stoned out of his mind due to something, or having a lapse into something mentally appalling.

"Did not dangle" - obviously BS. 33 seconds of what??? Moving up and down holding her outside of the window.

It is astonishing that this man does the unthinkable and not only gets away with it but gets a lot of sympathy and support. If it had been an accident then I'd support him too, but this was the most reckless treatment of a child's life; he endangered her life for 33 seconds and made it so there was only a 5% chance she would not fall to her death. It's disgusting.

No one is surprised that he can't take responsibility and tell the truth because it sounds like from the get-go he could not do that. His first concern was saving himself.

 

[mheido67]

I think it has a lot to do with it. And you are rationalizing and talking out of both sides of your mouth. You state this happened in 3 seconds So again if he HONESTLY thought the glass was there, his immediate reaction would be which of the following: "oh my god I made a horrible mistake and the glass wasn't there" or "the glass fell out!"

It's clear he knew the glass wasn't there. No one who honestly thought one thing could do a complete reversal in a matter of seconds like that. Think of a situation where you thought your child was behind you and you suddenly realize it's not your child it's another child. It takes 3 seconds alone JUST to realize you made a mistake. It takes way longer for your brain to reboot and figure out what's going on.

You are acting like him knowing he killed her in 3 seconds is the same thing as him going from "glass is there, I'll let Chloe beat on the glass" to "she fell" to "the glass isn't there" to "the glass fell out" to "the glass didn't fall out" to "oh my god I made a mistake there was never glass in the window" according to your count in 3 seconds.

Not possible.

Consider this;

You’re walking towards an opening Which you believe to be an unobstructed opening in a wall, an open door. As you approach the opening and begin to enter it you smack your face against clear glass. What’s your first thought, “Oh, there’s actually glass there!” Or, “Oh, how did someone come and put glass in that opening without me noticing all in the few seconds it took me to walk towards it?” I think you are confusing believing something to be true and observing something to be true. SA believed the glass was there because he was being unobservant. He didn’t observe glass that wasn’t there. There’s a difference.

 

[mheido67]

Yes we do know.

Yes we do know. We can see it in the video

ETA. Unless the bystanders remembered wrong and he didn"t
immediately say those statements but said them a few minutes later which is a possibility.

You can’t see words in a video that has no sound and doesn’t clearly show anyone’s mouth moving. The point is you don’t know if it was 3 seconds, 5 seconds, 15 seconds before he said the things people say they heard him say. Yet you’ve conclusively decided that it was not possible for him to realize there just wasn’t any glass in an amount of time that you really don’t know.

 

[Chewy]

Consider this;

You’re walking towards an opening Which you believe to be an unobstructed opening in a wall, an open door. As you approach the opening and begin to enter it you smack your face against clear glass. What’s your first thought, “Oh, there’s actually glass there!” Or, “Oh, how did someone come and put glass in that opening without me noticing all in the few seconds it took me to walk towards it?” I think you are confusing believing something to be true and observing something to be true. SA believed the glass was there because he was being unobservant. He didn’t observe glass that wasn’t there. There’s a difference.

Not if you are taking a toddler and leaning them up against it. You are correct in that the first one is about not paying attention but when you are watching a toddler that is at the very least neglect

 

[mheido67]

He didn’t lean out the window? Where is this coming from, the video clearly shows his head OUT the window. Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying.

I don’t believe the video “clearly” shows his head out beyond the window frame. Very close to where the glass would have been, yes. Clearly outside, no.

 

[Chewy]

You can’t see words in a video that has no sound and doesn’t clearly show anyone’s mouth moving. The point is you don’t know if it was 3 seconds, 5 seconds, 15 seconds before he said the things people say they heard him say. Yet you’ve conclusively decided that it was not possible for him to realize there just wasn’t any glass in an amount of time that you really don’t know.

That's a point I already made. But based on eyewitness accounts he said it as he immediately dropped to his knees. If that's a fact then it's not possible.

 

[mheido67]

That's a point I already made. But based on eyewitness accounts he said it as he immediately dropped to his knees. If that's a fact then it's not possible.

<modsnip: personalizing comment removed>

And from what we’ve heard there weren’t any direct eyewitnesses who actually saw her fall. So at best any witness would have had their attention drawn when they heard him wail or say something. You can see people react after SA has fallen to the floor. So their assessment of how immediate he said anything isn’t exactly reliable to the level of making an assessment of what was neurologically possible. IMO.

 

[In vino veritas]

I need some clarification.
Is the hearing in front of judge in PR regarding the plea deal a mere formality?
Is the plea deal, as reported, a fait accompli, or can the judge impose conditions.... such as admission of facts before granting the deal? Or even reject the plea deal?

 

[justbreathe]

He took a plea deal and pled guilty!

 

[al66pine]

So Fr/Seas Had No "Protective Barrier"?
"In my experience, any elevated public place I've been with that much glass has
always been a protective barrier..." continues w description about Notre Dame hockey rink.

Did SA think the ~ 42+ inch high rail was just decorative? < sarc >

^ from SA's written stmt. Man will plead guilty in granddaughter's cruise ship death to "end part of this nightmare"

 

[justbreathe]

I need some clarification.
Is the hearing in front of judge in PR regarding the plea deal a mere formality?
Is the plea deal, as reported, a fait accompli, or can the judge impose conditions.... such as admission of facts before granting the deal? Or even reject the plea deal?

By pleading guilty he is admitting to the fact he negligently caused Chloe’s death. The judge could reject it, but I seriously doubt he will.

 

[justbreathe]

You can’t see words in a video that has no sound and doesn’t clearly show anyone’s mouth moving. The point is you don’t know if it was 3 seconds, 5 seconds, 15 seconds before he said the things people say they heard him say. Yet you’ve conclusively decided that it was not possible for him to realize there just wasn’t any glass in an amount of time that you really don’t know.

Would the time of his outburst coincide with when all the people turn towards the incident. I just assumed they were reacting to SA screaming “I dropped my baby!”

 

[mheido67]

SA Stmt. Other Children's Deaths.
SA's stmt * says other ppl sent letters of sympathy w their stories.
"One woman told me the tragic story of how she and her husband lost their baby girl when her husband's practice golf ball ricocheted off of a tree. Another older gentleman told the story of how he and his recently deceased wife lost their youngest baby 25 years ago when they placed her in the grocery portion of a shopping cart and the toddler leaned over and fell out...
"Both letters expressed how horrible it would have been if they had to face prosecution after these unthinkable accidents." bbm

I hesitate to comment re ^ w'out knowing more about circumstances, as I don't want to derail thread.
However is a toddler in grocery section of shopping cart falling out of it "an unthinkable accident?"
Falling from height of 30+ (?) inches onto hard surface? Is toddler's fall itself an accident? Hopefully: just a bruise or two; but foreseeably: broken bone(s), paralysis, traumatic brain inj. "Unthinkable" aspect is death resulting from fall, not the fall itself. jmo. Back to Chloe.

* Man will plead guilty in granddaughter's cruise ship death to "end part of this nightmare"

I have several issues with SA's statement from this morning.

He goes out of his way in a fairly short statement to recount the stories of other people who experienced the tragic deaths of their child who told him how horrible it would have been if they had been prosecuted. Then immediately says he continues to only think of Chloe! If he was only thinking of Chloe he wouldn't have included anything about how hard the prosecution is on family members.

Also, at the end he comes pretty close to liabling RCCL, no?

"There are clear safety measures that the cruise line has demonstrated they know are necessary by implementing them on other ships but have neglected on this one."

This is a clear accusation that RCCL had prior knowledge of a dangerous condition existing and neglected to do anything about it. Did MW write this statement?

Changing the design of perimeter windows on subsequent ship builds does NOT equal implementing safety changes to a known hazard.