IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand

[Montrealaise]

Well, anyone unbelted in an accident can injure other belted passengers when they are thrown around the car. Buckling up is the law, not an optional choice. The point I’ve made is that SA has a long-standing pattern of disobeying safety laws (including speeding...75 in a 55 mile zone in one case) which can certainly endanger others. And his repeated violations display an unwillingness to learn from his mistakes.

Just as you would never stay with a child in a multistory hotel with windows that open, I would never trust such a reckless, law-defying person to supervise my child. I really doubt the pink ear protectors were his idea, but if they were, good for him.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

It's more than just an unwillingness to learn from his mistakes - it's a stubborn defiance of rules and laws (''Nobody tells ME what to do!'')

 

[MsFacetious]

For a lawyer... this guy sure doesn't choose his words very carefully. I can think of 100 that would have been better.
ANY that don't also describe an injury sustained in a 150 foot fall would be better as a matter of fact.

Family of toddler who fell from cruise ship 'utterly crushed' after grandfather charged

Michael Winkleman, an attorney for Chloe's parents, said the family was "fractured" after Anello's arrest. The charge was "like pouring salt on an open wound" for Alan and Kimberly Wiegand, Winkleman told NBC News.

"The family is crushed. Utterly crushed," Winkleman said. "I think they were doing their best to really start the process of grieving for the months since the incident, since the tragedy happened and I think they were really doing their best to keep it together for their 11-year-old son."

 

[MyBelle]

As long as I have been alive, I have NEVER EVER not ONCE encountered people who think that "banging on glass" is an appropriate or common childhood pastime. Even at hockey games, (at least in Buffalo NY) my DH said that the fans are told NOT to bang on the glass at games. I am wondering how this whole family could be "OK" with a toddler doing this? Such a potentially dangerous way to play?? IDK...JMOHO.

I do believe the toddler was banging on the window during her older brother's hockey game. An 18-month-old isn't going to damage a window. It's what toddlers do when someone they love is on the other side.

JMO

 

[TDoc72]

If that is what you prefer, why not go to an area away from the children's area?

I've seen no evidence that the family wasn't being responsible for the children traveling with them.

JMO

I’ve seen no evidence that the cruise ship was responsible for poor Chloe’s death. And while articles aren’t evidence, I’ve seen many that, at the very least, have the grandfather lacking in that responsibility. JMO.

If open windows at chest height scare you then don't go up on the 12th deck, or out any balconies or promenades because there is nothing but railing that doesn't even have windows! The ships rules state no climbing, standing or sitting on the rails. Should families with children be barred from staying in rooms with balconies because some other careless person could set their child on that rail and they could fall over? Or do cruise lines now need to get protective netting wrapping around anything that is open to the exterior?

And besides that, there is a lot of precedence for cruise lines being found not at fault for overboard deaths where the victims put themselves on the rails. This is why it is posted/provided that such actions are not permitted. This is why it is addressed in the safety briefings they make all passengers sit through before departing. Courts have ruled repeatedly in cruise lines favor with this and I don't see why they wouldn't again in this case. The windows were not in any way accessible to the 2 year old. She was placed there through the negligence of her grandfather's actions. If not for him, she wouldn't have fallen. IMO I highly doubt there is going to be a jury in FL that is going to put the blame on the cruise line for this.

I agree. Although that pic is good to show if the windows are open or closed, I think it’s a little misleading as to the distance between the window and the splash zone. To me, this pic makes it look at lot closer. See below.

I hadn’t seen that pic before. So the pool in front is the play area? Imo only, that area with the windows I would consider to be in the play area
Also, the circled opened windows don’t look nearly as high as I’d assumed . They do look obviously different than the closed ones.
There’s a older pic in an article that shows SA holding Chloe facing out sitting on his forearm And it stuns me every time I see it. Toddlers are top heavy and wiggly.
I do believe SA was negligent
/

I found that this video gave me the best visual representation for this case. The open or closed windows, the height of the safety rail, and the distance between the windows to the splash zone were all clearly visible to me and helped me understand better than other pics or the deck diagram did. It’s less than 2 mins long. JMO.

PS—I still hate when the guy shooting the vid turns and goes to the window. I’m always afraid he’s going to drop the camera so I can’t imagine putting a child there.

 

[Barnabas]

I get dizzy just looking out that open window.

 

[oviedo]

I’ve seen no evidence that the cruise ship was responsible for poor Chloe’s death. And while articles aren’t evidence, I’ve seen many that, at the very least, have the grandfather lacking in that responsibility. JMO.


I agree. Although that pic is good to show if the windows are open or closed, I think it’s a little misleading as to the distance between the window and the splash zone. To me, this pic makes it look at lot closer. See below.


I found that this video gave me the best visual representation for this case. The open or closed windows, the height of the safety rail, and the distance between the windows to the splash zone were all clearly visible to me and helped me understand better than other pics or the deck diagram did. It’s less than 2 mins long. JMO.

PS—I still hate when the guy shooting the vid turns and goes to the window. I’m always afraid he’s going to drop the camera so I can’t imagine putting a child there.

Thank you - this video is exactly what I was thinking I remembered about Deck 11 - clear separation between window area and play area - Plus - one side is a smoking side so that separation is what I remember most - always walked on the other side of the ship to avoid the smoke. I've wondered if he held her with both hands because surely it wasn't a one armed hip hold where you balance the child on your hip and your arm is securely around their back??? the video of course will tell the full story IMO

 

[LietKynes]

This is how I feel. Screaming via the media for LE to get to the bottom of things (to prove RCCL negligent), well they’re getting to the bottom of things as requested.

LBM
Ita.

Questions, questions.

Like, what were the parents doing when the incident happened ?
Were they unaware of SA's past traffic speeding violations and flagrant disregard for the law ?

Did the parents or SA drink that day ?
Since they were on the same deck as the play area , was Chloe initially playing in the small water park and allowed to roam as she pleased ?

Was SA often tasked with Chloe's care ?

And also but not lastly as I've wondered about other aspects --- why did they bring a child that age along at all ?
She'd have needed constant looking after !
Hardly a relaxing vacay.

Again-- was SA and other people besides the parents made to watch her ?
Was SA becoming angry with this arrangement ?
MOO

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Thank you - this video is exactly what I was thinking I remembered about Deck 11 - clear separation between window area and play area - Plus - one side is a smoking side so that separation is what I remember most - always walked on the other side of the ship to avoid the smoke. I've wondered if he held her with both hands because surely it wasn't a one armed hip hold where you balance the child on your hip and your arm is securely around their back??? the video of course will tell the full story IMO

I think folks who have never been on a cruise ship don't have proper perspective about how massive these "floating hotels" really are. Looking at deck plans probably doesn't satisfy the curiosity that some would have about the distance from the children's play area (H2O Zone) to the windows along the perimeter of the ship. The passenger video does a better job of showing how vast Deck 11 is and how much space there is between the edges of the sunken play area and the windows in the seating area.

 

[LietKynes]

For a lawyer... this guy sure doesn't choose his words very carefully. I can think of 100 that would have been better.

LBM

Cannot agree more !
He (MW) keeps saying that she was "Dangled" and of course, that's false --according to him and the family.
So stop saying it, MW ; you make it look like you're an ambulance chaser -- running wildly after anything that smells of 'simoleans' !!

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

LBM

Cannot agree more !
He (MW) keeps saying that she was "Dangled" and of course, that's false --according to him and the family.
So stop saying it, MW ; you make it look like you're an ambulance chaser -- running wildly after anything that smells of 'simoleans' !!

MW is a well-known "ship chaser". He has been involved in a number of cruise-related lawsuits. That Chloe was "dangled" out the open window is probably exactly what happened. This is precisely what the earliest reports of the incident suggested based on witnesses' remarks. Once the family hired an attorney, the story quickly changed to take the blame off Grandpa.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive.

The truth will out...

 

[MsBetsy]

Thank you - this video is exactly what I was thinking I remembered about Deck 11 - clear separation between window area and play area - Plus - one side is a smoking side so that separation is what I remember most - always walked on the other side of the ship to avoid the smoke. I've wondered if he held her with both hands because surely it wasn't a one armed hip hold where you balance the child on your hip and your arm is securely around their back??? the video of course will tell the full story IMO

I am not fully caught up in this case but I wonder if the grandfather actually seated the child on the ledge instead of just holding her up a little for her to see out the window.
Either that or he was holding her up too high and she suddenly leaned forward and he lost his grasp and she fell.
Such a tragedy.

Imo

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

While it's a bit tedious, passengers are expected to read and adhere to the policies set forth in RCCL cruise ticket contract.

https://www.royalcaribbean.com/content/dam/royal/resources/pdf/cruise-ticket-contract.pdf

 

[IceIce9]

MW is a well-known "ship chaser". He has been involved in a number of cruise-related lawsuits. That Chloe was "dangled" out the open window is probably exactly what happened.

A reasonable person knows that sitting a child in a window 150 feet above concrete is not safe. And she would have had to be lifted up to the window, it was far above what a child could reach.

Whether she was dangled, held up, or placed into the window Grandpa acted recklessly, carelessly, and negligently.

Lawyers who try to spin the facts of an accident away from the responsible person are what give the profession a bad name.

 

[LietKynes]

Some more links with the original wording ---where their lawyer is denying what the cruise staff originally observed :

Cruise ship toddler: Grandfather didn't dangle Chloe Wiegand from window, family attorney says - CNN

"This is not "like the Michael Jackson story, where he was dangling the child out the window," said the attorney for the family whose toddler fell to her death from a cruise ship window this weekend.
The grandfather of 18-month old Chloe Wiegand didn't dangle and drop her -- she fell because an open glass pane should have been closed securely, said attorney Michael Winkleman at a news conference on Tuesday...."

"....Chloe fell to her death from deck 11 of a Royal Caribbean cruise ship, Freedom of the Seas, while it was docked in San Juan, Puerto Rico, on Sunday..."
"...Winkleman said he was retained by the family on Monday to "set the record straight." As he describes it, the toddler's tragic death is unlike many of the original reports circling the internet...."

The DM article said they'd retained a lawyer swiftly but I wanted to see exactly how much time elapsed.
Didn't take the parents long .

And if it was an accident --why did they need a lawyer ? Just grieve and bury your little one and don't blame those who aren't at fault.

Will try to post more links from the original time of the incident before the story changed out of proportion and was embellished.

Indiana toddler, allegedly dangled by grandfather, dies after plunging 150 feet from cruise ship: report | Fox News
"...A toddler has died after plunging 150 feet from a cruise ship while being dangled out of a window by her granddad...."
"...Elmer Román, of the local Department of Public Security, said: "Police have now launched an investigation and are trawling CCTV of the ship..."
"At this time (the Division of) Homicide is in place. It has not been possible to interview the family...."
"At one point, one of her grandparents... in an act of games, exposes the girl to the void and falls out of his hands." Emph. mine

Had SA played this "game" with her before ?

And who holds a baby out a window at that height for a 'game' ? The parents should be livid with him, not supporting him.

The Grandfather Of The Toddler Who Fell To Her Death From A Cruise Ship Window Has Been Charged
"...On Monday, San Juan Investigations Chamber Judge Jimmy Sepúlveda determined that Anello was responsible for Chloe's death and charged the grandfather with negligent homicide, setting his bail at $80,000...."

"...In his testimony, the 50-year-old told officials that Chloe had asked him to pick her up, and he then put her on the rail by the window, expecting the glass to support her...."

"...Chloe's family had blamed Royal Caribbean for leaving a large window open in the children's area of the ship, creating a dangerous environment that enabled the girl to fall out...."
"...This is not “like the Michael Jackson story, where he was dangling the child out the window,” Michael Winkleman, the family's attorney, said during a news conference in July, explaining that Anello had placed Chloe on the railing because she loved to bang on the glass during her brother's hockey games in Indiana...."

The evolving story. If she was set on the rail--she'd still be alive. Not to mention a railing is not a great place to put a toddler, either.
The open window was higher up and SA obviously held her at, on, or through the open window.

Again with the atty. bringing up how SA did not "dangle" her. The more he brings this up , it makes it look like he's vigorously fighting the truth as was possibly initially stated; and make it completely the ship's fault.

Family of Dead Toddler Dropped by Grandfather Question Cruise Ship's Unsafe Play Area | toofab.com

"It's a very grave scene, very regrettable and tragic," Elmer Roman of the Puerto Rican Department of Public Security told Primera Hora.
"One of the grandfathers, whom it would appear was playing with the little girl, lifted her out of the open window and lost his grip." emph. mine

E.Roman may have heard this from the ship staff ; or this is what the security footage shows.

For all of the lawyer's talk about wanting to view the footage-- maybe what he really wants is for it to be buried forever.
The footage could be the end of the lawsuit for good.

 

[LietKynes]

Suppose the RCC line could put bars over the windows and enclosed decks around the ship so it's impossible to fall over or through a window.
Might spoil the effect of the ocean trip.

It's odd that in the photos after the incident, there was only one window open.
And it was that window that SA chose to hold her up to.
He'd have certainly known the others were closed.
So why not hold her by a closed one... in his 'own mind' that would've been safer.
Is this how he was thinking ??

Disclaimer : I am NOT suggesting any one else of sound and competent mind try this !

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

LietKynes, thank you for posting links to early reports about the case. I'm working on this, too. Even if we can't have the original discussion threads restored, I wish we could, at least, have the many resources that members contributed.

 

[oviedo]

LietKynes, thank you for posting links to early reports about the case. I'm working on this, too. Even if we can't have the original discussion threads restored, I wish we could, at least, have the many resources that members contributed.

yes, thank you. I think once that video is released the family will back off IMO. I wonder if it is now evidence so RCCL won't be able to release it?

 

[MsMarple]

If the outcome here wasn't so damn tragic the circumstances are almost laughable. The lawyer is essentially asking the cruise line to post a warning above the windows. I can see it now... "Passengers who choose to disregard the ship policy which forbids anyone to climb, sit, stand or straddle on exterior and interior railings please be aware that some windows may be open..." Or how about this for really stupid people: "Caution, corridor ends in 15 feet. Be prepared to turn right."

"How about a warning, how about a sign, how about something?" he said at a July press conference. "When you put it in a kids' play area, you gotta do something to let people know that these can be opened so things like this don't happen."

Grandfather charged in death of granddaughter who fell from cruise ship

Or how about a sign that says "Please don't bang on the windows."

 

[Safeguard]

I think the parents are still going to blame the cruise line because there were no warning signs to alert Grandpa. That's been their position from the beginning. I'm betting not one guest room on that ship with a window only, is a window that opens. I'm also betting the newly refurbished ship addresses the play area/open window safety issue.

JMO

Freedom of the Seas Cruise Ship to Undergo Refurbishment With Waterslides, New Eateries and More

Maybe. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that you don't hold a kid up to an open window on the 11th floor. Grampa knew that window was open imo. I don't have the slightest doubt in my mind. That's why he picked her up. So she could see out. My guess is we will hear that when this goes to trial.

But let's go with "she asked him to pick her up so she could bang on window" for a sec... surely any reasonable adult would instinctively, check and double check that the window was definitely closed, locked, and secure when you are that high up, especially if he knew that she was likely going to start banging on a thin pane of glass which was all that was separating her from the ground.

According to those who know cruise ships far better than I, they can't remove operational windows in that area any more than Disney can remove all the gators from that lake. (apparently ventilation is a thing).

If the baby had been able to climb up to the open window then that is definitely a safety issue. No one would have assumed a neon sign "Don't place toddlers on the safety rail of an open window" was needed.

Cruise ships always open those upper windows in port so it’s not so hot. Of the thousands of people crushing every year, no one else has accidentally placed a child up to an open window. The windows are tinted so it’s incredibly obvious when a window is open.

 

[LietKynes]

There was this passenger who was banned for life from cruises for climbing over a railing on the outside decks of the ship to take a selfie.
"Gotta get that perfect angle..."

Royal Caribbean bans woman from its cruises for life over dangerous photo - The Washington Post

"...Royal Caribbean warns against “unsafe behavior” in its guest conduct policy, saying “sitting, standing, laying or climbing on, over or across any exterior or interior railings or other protective barriers” is forbidden...."

Passenger banned for life by Royal Caribbean after taking dangerous selfie on cruise ship’s railing - New York Daily News

Wow. Holy cr*p.

Where she's standing-- it looks like any movement and she'd be in the ocean .
Smh.

Good for the fellow passenger to alert the crew.
Imagine the consequences if she'd fallen and was lost at sea or the ship had to turn around to pick her up.
Use your brains, people !