IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand

[BetteDavisEyes]

...Of the thousands of people crushing every year, no one else has accidentally placed a child up to an open window. The windows are tinted so it’s incredibly obvious when a window is open.

This. Exactly.

 

[Lilibet]

There was this passenger who was banned for life from cruises for climbing over a railing on the outside decks of the ship to take a selfie.
"Gotta get that perfect angle..."

Royal Caribbean bans woman from its cruises for life over dangerous photo - The Washington Post

"...Royal Caribbean warns against “unsafe behavior” in its guest conduct policy, saying “sitting, standing, laying or climbing on, over or across any exterior or interior railings or other protective barriers” is forbidden...."

Passenger banned for life by Royal Caribbean after taking dangerous selfie on cruise ship’s railing - New York Daily News

Wow. Holy cr*p.

Where she's standing-- it looks like any movement and she'd be in the ocean .
Smh.

Good for the fellow passenger to alert the crew.
Imagine the consequences if she'd fallen and was lost at sea or the ship had to turn around to pick her up.
Use your brains, people !

You can’t fix stupid! No amount of precautions will prevent this. There have been so many selfie deaths!

 

[sl222]

For a lawyer... this guy sure doesn't choose his words very carefully. I can think of 100 that would have been better.
ANY that don't also describe an injury sustained in a 150 foot fall would be better as a matter of fact.

Family of toddler who fell from cruise ship 'utterly crushed' after grandfather charged

Michael Winkleman, an attorney for Chloe's parents, said the family was "fractured" after Anello's arrest. The charge was "like pouring salt on an open wound" for Alan and Kimberly Wiegand, Winkleman told NBC News.

"The family is crushed. Utterly crushed," Winkleman said. "I think they were doing their best to really start the process of grieving for the months since the incident, since the tragedy happened and I think they were really doing their best to keep it together for their 11-year-old son."

You sure are right! Very surprising that an attorney would not think twice about his choice of words. Stick to "devastated," that word is accurate and safe. And the salt on open wound is a particularly graphic and ugly choice of words that would put some people's minds elsewhere to actual desciptions of torture. I knew something bugged me about his words and you nailed it.

 

[neesaki]

I get dizzy just looking out that open window.

Me too, yet apparently SA thought it was so funny to scare baby Chloe like that. IMO, it should be considered child abuse even if he hadn’t dropped her. I really hope he gets jail time for this.

 

[IceIce9]

Suppose the RCC line could put bars over the windows and enclosed decks around the ship so it's impossible to fall over or through a window.
Might spoil the effect of the ocean trip.

It's odd that in the photos after the incident, there was only one window open.
And it was that window that SA chose to hold her up to.
He'd have certainly known the others were closed.
So why not hold her by a closed one... in his 'own mind' that would've been safer.
Is this how he was thinking ??

Disclaimer : I am NOT suggesting any one else of sound and competent mind try this !

I have actually heard the argument that Grand Canyon should have child-safe railings around the top so parents would be able to take their children there safely.


Anyone who has hiked at Grand Canyon knows this idea is ridiculous.

Even if railing was placed in certain areas, no doubt some parents would stand their kids on top of the rail for photos or kids would climb over it.

 

[neesaki]

MW is a well-known "ship chaser". He has been involved in a number of cruise-related lawsuits. That Chloe was "dangled" out the open window is probably exactly what happened. This is precisely what the earliest reports of the incident suggested based on witnesses' remarks. Once the family hired an attorney, the story quickly changed to take the blame off Grandpa.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive.

The truth will out...

And Winkleman keeps claiming they need to see the video, yet when they do see it and the truth is revealed to be what most of here suspect it will be, what on earth will he say then?

 

[Safeguard]

I actually don't want to see him punished. I think Natural Consequences already did a thorough job of that. Third rule of Physics: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction".

We all know our actions have consequences, you can't safeguard everyone, from everything. People who spill hot coffee on themselves will get burned. They shouldn't be allowed to sue McDonalds. Common sense is a "thing".

The only reason I wanted to see charges brought is because I didn't like the fact that Dad is a cop and Mom is a lawyer, so this family would get a pass, when sleep deprived parents in Hot Car deaths are charged with murder/Neg Hom. all the time now. ( These Hot Car deaths escalated with the introduction to new car seat laws. Car seat laws either brought out the murderer in thousands of parents, or many cases were accidents).

I really though this act of gross negligence, on the part of Grandpa, was just going to go away, (like Epstein's murder!), due to preferential treatment. And that's unacceptable. imo.

 

[Area52]

I think the parents are still going to blame the cruise line because there were no warning signs to alert Grandpa. That's been their position from the beginning. I'm betting not one guest room on that ship with a window only, is a window that opens. I'm also betting the newly refurbished ship addresses the play area/open window safety issue.

JMO

Freedom of the Seas Cruise Ship to Undergo Refurbishment With Waterslides, New Eateries and More

Perhaps you should read the article you attached to your post. The ship is not going into drydock to be refurbished until 2020. I vacationed on this ship in early October , and I can verify that the windows are tinted, and an open window can easily be identified. They are also high enough that even an adult could not fall out. While I feel awful for this family, and the guilt that grandpa will carry to his grave, I think this was a horrible accident, and that the grandfather is unintentionally responsible. RCCL did nothing negligible IMO. This is a case of someone not thinking of the consequences of their actions. And unfortunately it didn't end well.

 

[MyBelle]

MW is a well-known "ship chaser". He has been involved in a number of cruise-related lawsuits. That Chloe was "dangled" out the open window is probably exactly what happened. This is precisely what the earliest reports of the incident suggested based on witnesses' remarks. Once the family hired an attorney, the story quickly changed to take the blame off Grandpa.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive.

The truth will out...

BBM. If that is what happened, I think LE would have swiftly pressed charges far more serious than a misdemeanor.

I think the cases easily find his firm not just because of their incredible success but also because they maintain a high news media profile.

https://www.lipcon.com/landmark-cases/

 

[they'll get you]

You can’t fix stupid! No amount of precautions will prevent this. There have been so many selfie deaths!

 

[MyBelle]

Perhaps you should read the article you attached to your post. The ship is not going into drydock to be refurbished until 2020. I vacationed on this ship in early October , and I can verify that the windows are tinted, and an open window can easily be identified. They are also high enough that even an adult could not fall out. While I feel awful for this family, and the guilt that grandpa will carry to his grave, I think this was a horrible accident, and that the grandfather is unintentionally responsible. RCCL did nothing negligible IMO. This is a case of someone not thinking of the consequences of their actions. And unfortunately it didn't end well.

No, it didn't end well which is why the parents are going to file a lawsuit in order to prevent it from happening to another child.

Here's what I said and my opinion remains unchanged.
MyBelle said: ↑
I think the parents are still going to blame the cruise line because there were no warning signs to alert Grandpa. That's been their position from the beginning. I'm betting not one guest room on that ship with a window only, is a window that opens. I'm also betting the newly refurbished ship addresses the play area/open window safety issue.

JMO

 

[PdxErn]

Just watching CBS coverage and the one policeman illustrates what he saw GP do after viewing the video. It's chilling.

According to this man, SA was balancing Chloe on the wooden railing, and apparently let his hands go open (having no grip on Chloe at all).

I know the excuse is that he thought there was glass there, but if there had been glass, Chloe's position would have had to be closer to SA, as he couldn't have leaned her forward. MOO.

The excuse of him thinking there was glass there doesn't really make sense to me - why would you let a baby balance on a wooden railing without supporting them even if you thought there was a glass window in front of them? Wouldn't you be concerned about them tipping forward and banging their head into the glass??

 

[Safeguard]

I do believe the toddler was banging on the window during her older brother's hockey game. An 18-month-old isn't going to damage a window. It's what toddlers do when someone they love is on the other side.

JMO

And that's where adults come in. Swoop up baby and teach them to wave instead, as windows are not for banging on. Parenting 101 imo.

 

[they'll get you]

Just watching CBS coverage and the one policeman illustrates what he saw GP do after viewing the video. It's chilling.

According to this man, SA was balancing Chloe on the wooden railing, and apparently let his hands go open (having no grip on Chloe at all).

I know the excuse is that he thought there was glass there, but if there had been glass, Chloe's position would have had to be closer to SA, as he couldn't have leaned her forward. MOO.

That wood railing is about 1’ back from the window so IMO if Cloe was sitting on the railing and leaned forward, a child that size might have fallen down between the window and the wooden rail but not through the window.

I also noticed there seemed to always be a breeze in or out of those windows in port or at sea even on a still day.

Anyone know if there was wind on that day?

 

[Lilibet]

I have actually heard the argument that Grand Canyon should have child-safe railings around the top so parents would be able to take their children there safely.


Anyone who has hiked at Grand Canyon knows this idea is ridiculous.

Even if railing was placed in certain areas, no doubt some parents would stand their kids on top of the rail for photos or kids would climb over it.

I have an almost phobic fear of edges so visiting the Grand Canyon rim was torture. Watching unsupervised children and dumb adults cavort near the edge was panic-inducing for me. No railing will stop stupid. I’ve watched the same disregard for caution signs in Yosemite too. And people die.

 

[squareandrabbet]

I do believe the toddler was banging on the window during her older brother's hockey game. An 18-month-old isn't going to damage a window. It's what toddlers do when someone they love is on the other side.

I agree, they're not that strong, and teaching Chloe differently wouldn't have kept her alive in this instance as her grandfather still had to lift her up there; so it doesn't matter what anyone was or wasn't teaching her. An 18-month-old can't make good decisions; this is, IMO, an unalloyed fact we don't even need to discuss.

 

[Montrealaise]

I’ve seen no evidence that the cruise ship was responsible for poor Chloe’s death. And while articles aren’t evidence, I’ve seen many that, at the very least, have the grandfather lacking in that responsibility. JMO.


I agree. Although that pic is good to show if the windows are open or closed, I think it’s a little misleading as to the distance between the window and the splash zone. To me, this pic makes it look at lot closer. See below.


I found that this video gave me the best visual representation for this case. The open or closed windows, the height of the safety rail, and the distance between the windows to the splash zone were all clearly visible to me and helped me understand better than other pics or the deck diagram did. It’s less than 2 mins long. JMO.

PS—I still hate when the guy shooting the vid turns and goes to the window. I’m always afraid he’s going to drop the camera so I can’t imagine putting a child there.

Thanks for posting the video - it's very informative. The guy shooting the video goes right up to the window and it is so obvious that it's open - I don't believe SA when he says he thought it was closed. Also, towards the end, the videographer aims the camera to the right and you can see the position of the safety rail very clearly. It's a few inches away from the window and a few inches above the windowsill. I've read accounts that SA stood the toddler on the railing and then let go (if it's true, it was an incredibly stupid and reckless thing to do). It's so easy to imagine that she lurched forward, as toddlers tend to do, and plunged through the open window before SA had a chance to grab her.

 

[Lilibet]

View attachment 212355

Yeah, that was insane. He lost any respect I might have still had for him with that stunt. I wonder what poor Blanket thinks when he sees that photo.

 

[Lilibet]

No, it didn't end well which is why the parents are going to file a lawsuit in order to prevent it from happening to another child.

Here's what I said and my opinion remains unchanged.
MyBelle said: ↑
I think the parents are still going to blame the cruise line because there were no warning signs to alert Grandpa. That's been their position from the beginning. I'm betting not one guest room on that ship with a window only, is a window that opens. I'm also betting the newly refurbished ship addresses the play area/open window safety issue.

JMO

BBM

If grandpa needed a warning sign telling him not to hold Chloe up to an open window 11 stories up (and do whatever else he did) he shouldn’t be allowed to be in charge of Chloe. Grandpa has also clearly shown a pattern of disrespect for safety laws to the tune of numerous citations for breaking the law, so he’s not likely to obey a safety warning sign he thinks is stupid and optional and spoils his “fun.”

As has been shown in videos and photos, the play area was not in close proximity to the windows, so I don’t see a safety issue to address. Maybe huge signs and employees on bullhorns telling parents to watch their kids?
JMO

 

[Safeguard]

The guy shooting the video goes right up to the window and it is so obvious that it's open - I don't believe SA when he says he thought it was closed

I never believed that. But I will allow, that he may have, in the aftermath, so desperately needed to believe that, or some other scenario... as a coping mechanism.

Our minds are capable of blocking reality, if the truth threatens our lives/sanity.

I have the utmost compassion for the whole family, Grandpa included. I could never live this and survive. I don't think.