IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand

[Kindred]

Devastated grandfather of toddler who died falling from his arms on cruise ship arrives in Chicago | Daily Mail Online

this may have been posted and I just missed it

The window on the far left is the one Chloe fell through on Sunday while being held against the railing by her grandfather. The others appear to have handles which allow them to be slid open This photograph was taken by Chloe's father after the accident

I posted it earlier, but I'm curious about your statement that the father took it. I've seen that photo a million times but never seen it attributed to the father. It's clearly one of the edited ones from during the scene investigation (you can see the tape isolating that area) and it's dark outside. Sunset in PR in July was around 7pm so this photo was taken at minimal 2-3 hours after the accident, and I can't imagine that he would have been hanging around the scene instead of down at the hospital grieving and dealing with authorities. Do you know where you saw it came from him?

I never said there were other parties responsible for Chloe's death. That's all on Gandpa imo.

If you read my whole post, which you quoted, what I said was:


"Yet some equally culpable parents are spared, and others with less evidence to show negligence are prosecuted to the fullest. Why is that?"

I was referring to other cases, as it initially looked as if Grandpa might not be charged at all and I felt that would would have been wrong, (as so many other people are charged with much less to show negligence).

In the next sentence after that one, you make a statement about the parent's professions and them being given "some professional courtesy" so it sounded like you were inferring they should have also been charged, not that you were referring to outside cases. That's why I was confused. I apologize.

It amazes me that Winkleman is playing dumb with his comments. He has been involved in numerous cruise line lawsuits and knows full well that practically every cruise ship has similar type windows on the open upper decks. The windows are usually tinted to prevent glare, and it's easy to tell which windows are open and which aren't.

He's playing dumb for the camera's because this is probably the most publicized case he's ever had. He's acting for the court of public opinion, which is still trying to figure out who in their right mind encourages a 2 year old to stand on a rail and intentionally bang on a window in the first place instead of just grabbing their pitchforks and falling in line behind the family.

 

[IceIce9]

Mr. Winkleman likes to make word salads. He's admitting that there was one window open, but it was a "hidden hole". Every photo and video of the windows clearly indicates that the windows are tinted and that windows that are open look very different than those that are closed.

He also said the open window was near a children’s play area. This statement isn’t true, it was not near a children’s play area. Some have posted that the open window was in a children’s play area. All you have to do is look at the photos.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I'm wondering if GF was/is a smoker, and he brought the baby with him to the smoking area part of the deck. I can imagine a scenario where he placed her on the railing using both hands, and then removed one hand to light a cigarette/cigar, etc. Or, maybe he dropped something, ducked down to pick it up, holding her steady with one hand, and lost his grip. All speculation, of course. . . until we find out more from the surveillance...

Excellent point about the smoking! Neither DH nor I have ever smoked, so we really don't pay much attention to which areas of the many cruise ships on which we've sailed are smoking or non-smoking. It's entirely possible that SA wanted to smoke and took Chloe to an area of the ship where he'd be able to light up. Surveillance video will show what G'pa was doing and where other family members were and what they were doing at the time of the incident.

 

[MsBetsy]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

Who is he to the family if he is not her grandfather? They are not related at all?

 

[oviedo]

I posted it earlier, but I'm curious about your statement that the father took it. I've seen that photo a million times but never seen it attributed to the father. It's clearly one of the edited ones from during the scene investigation (you can see the tape isolating that area) and it's dark outside. Sunset in PR in July was around 7pm so this photo was taken at minimal 2-3 hours after the accident, and I can't imagine that he would have been hanging around the scene instead of down at the hospital grieving and dealing with authorities. Do you know where you saw it came from him?

BBM snipped for focus
It's not my statement - if you click the link to the article you will see the caption under the photo - I copied it exactly and posted it. Someone must have told the dailymail this information IMO. wonder who?

 

[squareandrabbet]

The first very early report I saw said that the mother was in a different part of the ship and came running to see Chloe without knowing she was lying on the concrete 150 feet below. She was saying “take me to my baby! I want to see my baby!” snd then screamed when she saw her on the concrete below.

That sounds like she in fact got word from somewhere that someone had had an accident with a baby in general; and that she feared it was Chloe. Can you find the source for that characterization?

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

Who was he to the family if he was not her grandfather?

Step grandfather, apparently

 

[MsBetsy]

That sounds like she in fact got word from somewhere that someone had had an accident with a baby in general; and that she feared it was Chloe. Can you find the source for that characterization?

It sounded to me like she had been informed there had been an accident involving her child but she did not realize what happened until she saw the open window and her child below.
It must have been horrible.

Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

Step grandfather, apparently

Ok, thanks.
I'm not sure it would make a difference, especially if he had known the child since birth.
Did he only recently become part of the family? Or is it unknown how much of a relationship he had with the child?

 

[LietKynes]

“There’s a whole wall of windows [on the ship],” Mr Winkleman told NBC.

“The grandfather thought that this window was closed. It turns out, we’ve come to learn, that ... passengers can open these windows.”

Mr Winkleman said while the other windows were closed, there was one that was open and created a “hidden hole”, which Chloe fell through.

“Unknowingly, the grandfather places Chloe on the wood railing before the wall of windows, believing Chloe will bang on the glass just like she does at her brother’s hockey games, “and the next thing he knows, she’s gone,” he explained.

“Why in the world would you leave a window open in an entire glass wall full of windows in a kid’s area?”
Cruise ship slammed over little girl’s death

This Winkleman amazes me; and not in a good way.
I'm assuming he is an intelligent and competent lawyer and is just doing his job.
But, a "hidden hole" ????
If this happened in a wall where there's wood panels or wainscoting, and a person leaning on it fell through to the other side---maybe that could be construed as a 'hidden hole' ?
This is really stretching to think how a window in the ship could've been disguised as a hidden anything.
Day or night, fairly clear that it is a window and when it's open vs. closed.

Devastated grandfather of toddler who died falling from his arms on cruise ship arrives in Chicago | Daily Mail Online

this may have been posted and I just missed it

The window on the far left is the one Chloe fell through on Sunday while being held against the railing by her grandfather. The others appear to have handles which allow them to be slid open This photograph was taken by Chloe's father after the accident

snipped -BBM -(here are some answers)
But an official from the justice department told DailyMail.com that, on the advice of his lawyer, the elderly IT worker from Valparaiso, Indiana, left the ministry later that day without giving an official statement.

Alan Weigand, a 40-year-old police officer with the South Bend Police Department, and his attorney wife Kimberly, 36, were flying back to the US on a different flight.

A hearse and a police escort were due to meet them to escort Chloe's body back to their hometown of Granger, Indiana.

The couple had met with Justice Department officials on Tuesday and similarly refused to give witness statements, claiming they were on a different part of the ship when Chloe fell and didn't see anything.

DailyMail.com can reveal they were also then given the opportunity to view a 'high quality' video of their daughter's final moments captured from an onboard camera - but were too distraught to watch.

'The family were asked to come to the Justice Department to talk about what happened but they decided not to since their lawyer had told them not to,' said Justice Department spokesman Kelvin Carrasco.

'The investigation is going to keep going. Maybe they will be asked to come again.'

The Weigands have retained criminal attorneys in San Juan who have thus far declined to speak to the media.

ETA: added the caption to the window photo - taken by Chloe's dad - I don't know how you do this after your child has died but he is a police officer...

LBM
Agreed Re. the bolded.
Maybe he thought he needed to get the evidence immediately ?
Thanks for this photo.
Thought someone had posted back in the original thread-- maybe it was you ?
Even at night, the status of the open/closed window is quite clear !

I suppose ...it's different looking at a photo as opposed to seeing it in real life.
A youtuber posted a video of this area in the daytime and it looked even from a distance like you could clearly see if it was open or shut.
Haven't been on a cruise and of course not on this ship.
If this goes to trial, will the jury want to see this area for themselves ?
Maybe.

 

[oviedo]

Devastated grandfather of toddler who died falling from his arms on cruise ship arrives in Chicago | Daily Mail Online

this may have been posted and I just missed it

The window on the far left is the one Chloe fell through on Sunday while being held against the railing by her grandfather. The others appear to have handles which allow them to be slid open This photograph was taken by Chloe's father after the accident

snipped -BBM -(here are some answers)
But an official from the justice department told DailyMail.com that, on the advice of his lawyer, the elderly IT worker from Valparaiso, Indiana, left the ministry later that day without giving an official statement.

The couple had met with Justice Department officials on Tuesday and similarly refused to give witness statements, claiming they were on a different part of the ship when Chloe fell and didn't see anything.


ETA: added the caption to the window photo - taken by Chloe's dad - I don't know how you do this after your child has died but he is a police officer...

I viewed this window picture full screen - the railing is fairly close to the window so if he sat her on it - her legs could have been dangling out the window - otherwise, he would need to bend her knees to keep them between the opening and the railing KWIM? I'm just trying to imagine how this could have happened based on what I"m seeing and reading now - this article was posted July 11 and updated July 12. I'm including a few other photos in the article that you have to click on to see.

 

[oviedo]

After looking at these pictures I'm convinced this was indeed reckless and negligent behavior - with or without any other factors IMO

 

[LietKynes]

Who is he to the family if he is not her grandfather? They are not related at all?

I think it's Kimberly Wiegand's mother's 2nd husband.
And according to some posters I think SA is younger than his wife, and not a lot older than Chloe's father ?
I don't know how close SA was to Chloe.

But my friend's stepfather is more of a real 'dad' to her than her biological father.
She doesn't like the term 'stepdad' as to her --he is her REAL dad.
He's been there for her since she was 4.

I used the term stepdad for SA to define the relationship and figure out some of the family dynamics, that is all.
SA and Chloe may or may not have been close, we don't know.
She was pretty young, so he would not have had a lot of time to spend with her before her sad death.

As far as what happened, those ships have a ton of CC cams I'd imagine.
So it is probably known where all of the family was when the incident happened.
I am curious if SA actually did open that window himself.
The footage would show this.

And it may mean nothing nefarious. He might have wanted some fresh air and a view of the harbor.
I am a fresh air fiend and would want to open the window for a look outside, whether in harbor or at sea !

But, it would put a damper on Winkleman's theory of the hidden hole, aka the open window.

 

[sl222]

The GF and his wife have been married a very long time, since at least when Chloe's mother was growing up. He appears to be a very involved and doting grandfather. With both of the grandchildren. That's part of what is so sad. I feel for the whole family.

 

[Kindred]

BBM snipped for focus
It's not my statement - if you click the link to the article you will see the caption under the photo - I copied it exactly and posted it. Someone must have told the dailymail this information IMO. wonder who?

That's really interesting. Because the same article has this photo further down

You can see quite clearly that they were taking within mere moments of each other. The woman in white, the woman in the dark shirt standing next to her and the seated bald man by the windows are all in the same positions, just the camera is pointed more directly at the windows in the edited one and one or two other people have moved into the shot. But the funny thing is the second image isn't attributed to the father though taken from pretty much the same spot. Now I'm wondering who really took them, I always assumed they were either LE or a crewmember.

Does the family have any social media they've been posting anything one? Anyone know?

 

[LietKynes]

Have been looking around for some more msm articles closer to when this happened.
Will post if I find anything not already in the comments.
I didn't see a media thread for this case; should we start one ?

Most of the recent articles are full of 'Monsieur' Winkleman and his theories.......

 

[IceIce9]

Chloe had traveled to San Juan from Granger, Indiana, with her parents, siblings, and four grandparents for a Caribbean vacation. Her father, Alan Wiegand, is an officer with the South Bend Police Department.

How many family members were actually on the cruise? I have seen conflicting reports.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bu...egand-death-cruise-family-charges-puerto-rico

 

[oviedo]

The DailyMail pays for interviews and photos - but the one photo showing the windows is attributed to the father of the child. I don't believe the others have captions - they also have a lot of the suspect en route to the airport - getting on the bus with luggage, etc. You have to view the photo collage to see all of them.

 

[oviedo]

Have been looking around for some more msm articles closer to when this happened.
Will post if I find anything not already in the comments.
I didn't see a media thread for this case; should we start one ?

Most of the recent articles are full of 'Monsieur' Winkleman and his theories.......

considering the original thread disappeared, a media thread may be a good idea - I just did one this morning for Aniah Blanchard (missing college student AL) - if someone has time to do one for this - great. I could probably work on it tomorrow morning if not. interesting point - i found this article via the image alone by searching on deck 11 freedom of the seas.

 

[oviedo]

Chloe had traveled to San Juan from Granger, Indiana, with her parents, siblings, and four grandparents for a Caribbean vacation. Her father, Alan Wiegand, is an officer with the South Bend Police Department.

How many family members were actually on the cruise? I have seen conflicting reports.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bu...egand-death-cruise-family-charges-puerto-rico

Chloe Wiegand: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

“According to officials in the U.S. territory, Chloe Wiegand was 18 months old at the time of her death. She had been on a family vacation with her parents, two siblings, and two sets of grandparents. The tragedy occurred on board the Freedom of the Seas ship at the Panamerican dock on July 7. The family hails from Indiana. They had boarded the ship in Puerto Rico. It had been due to depart at 8:30 p.m. local time on the day of the tragedy. Wiegand fell to her death at around 5 p.m.”