IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand

[MyBelle]

“There’s a whole wall of windows [on the ship],” Mr Winkleman told NBC.

“The grandfather thought that this window was closed. It turns out, we’ve come to learn, that ... passengers can open these windows.”

Mr Winkleman said while the other windows were closed, there was one that was open and created a “hidden hole”, which Chloe fell through.

“Unknowingly, the grandfather places Chloe on the wood railing before the wall of windows, believing Chloe will bang on the glass just like she does at her brother’s hockey games, “and the next thing he knows, she’s gone,” he explained.

“Why in the world would you leave a window open in an entire glass wall full of windows in a kid’s area?”
Cruise ship slammed over little girl’s death

Unknowingly is a key descriptive. I think those who so desperately want the grandfather convicted in the court of public opinion are overlooking one major detail: the reason why Grandpa and Chloe were in that water play area. I'm confident they were there because of the family's other children and Grandpa offered to watch them while the other adults grabbed a bite to eat. The kid's play area was clearly visible from that location.

I believe he was standing in front of a closed window, facing the play area and-- with his back to the windows--moved to rest Chloe's weight next to him on the railing, not realizing the window in front of her was open.

JMO

 

[oceanstarryeyes]

Who is he to the family if he is not her grandfather? They are not related at all?

He is married to a Grandmother but not blood related to the Grand Child that died.

 

[al66pine]

'Conflicting' Pix of Windows?

I viewed this window picture full screen - the railing is fairly close to the window so if he sat her on it - her legs could have been dangling out the window - otherwise, he would need to bend her knees to keep them between the opening and the railing KWIM? I'm just trying to imagine how this could have happened based on what I"m seeing and reading now - this article was posted July 11 and updated July 12. I'm including a few other photos in the article that you have to click on to see.

@oviedo Thanks for your post and these pix.
I'm wondering if first two pix are the interior/exterior of same windows.
Interior - imo, in nighttime pic w ppl & police tape facing wall of windows, windows are 'landscape.'
Exterior - imo, in pic w open window, circled in red, windows are 'portrait' (at least middle row).
Do they look different because they were taken from diff angle?
Are my eyes wonky? My tablet? My brain?

I cannot recall which MSM first printed row-of-windows pix taken from ext, w red circle. Daily Mail?
Is it possible ext pix is not of the actual deck/level? Or maybe not even Freedom of the Seas windows?

IIRC, within ~ week of death, MSM showed nighttime vid shot from exterior (angled up?), showing 2 ppl maybe a few feet from glass wall of windows. Man (maybe LE?) was gesturing, as if w baby. I cannot find vid now and cannot recall whether windows looked like landscape in that vid.

 

[IceIce9]

Unknowingly is a key descriptive. I think those who so desperately want the grandfather convicted in the court of public opinion are overlooking one major detail: the reason why Grandpa and Chloe were in that water play area. I'm confident they were there because of the family's other children and Grandpa offered to watch them while the other adults grabbed a bite to eat. The kid's play area was clearly visible from that location.

I believe he was standing in front of a closed window, facing the play area and-- with his back to the windows--moved to rest Chloe's weight next to him on the railing, not realizing the window in front of her was open.
JMO

So you are saying he had his back to the window but he held Chloe facing the window so she could bang on it?

I am just trying to picture this.

 

[oviedo]

It sounded to me like she had been informed there had been an accident involving her child but she did not realize what happened until she saw the open window and her child below.
It must have been horrible.

Imo

snipped - someone asked where mom was - there was an early story that differed than this account IIRC

Grandfather charged in death of granddaughter who fell from cruise ship

Wiegand's mother Kimberly previously told NBC's "Today" that "I never want another mother to have to experience this or to see what I had to see or to scream how I had to scream."

"I didn't know that she went out a window," she added. "And I just kept saying, 'Take me to my baby. Where's my baby?' I didn't even notice a window. I ran over there and I looked over and it wasn't water down there, it was concrete. To lose our baby this way is just unfathomable."

 

[oviedo]

'Conflicting' Pix of Windows?

@oviedo Thanks for your post and these pix.
I'm wondering if first two pix are the interior/exterior of same windows.
Interior - imo, in nighttime pic w ppl & police tape facing wall of windows, windows are 'landscape.'
Exterior - imo, in pic w open window, circled in red, windows are 'portrait' (at least middle row).
Do they look different because they were taken from diff angle?
Are my eyes wonky? My tablet? My brain?

I cannot recall which MSM first printed row-of-windows pix taken from ext, w red circle. Daily Mail?
Is it possible ext pix is not of the actual deck/level? Or maybe not even Freedom of the Seas windows?

IIRC, within ~ week of death, MSM showed nighttime vid shot from exterior (angled up?), showing 2 ppl maybe a few feet from glass wall of windows. Man (maybe LE?) was gesturing, as if w baby. I cannot find vid now and cannot recall whether windows looked like landscape in that vid.

the pics i posted all came from the dailymail link - the RCCL big boats are very similar in that deck 11 does have "walls of windows" - 3 high as depicted in the photos - it is possible the photo of the exterior middle window circled is another ship - I was trying to determine where on the pool deck the fall happened based on how many windows in from the Windjammer doors to see if the window was center deck or closer to the pool bars located at each end of the pool deck. I think it was 5pm that it happened and they would have to bring in LE (although I supposed RCCL has yellow tape) to tape off the area - so it would be getting dark if this picture was taken a few hours after it.

When did the parents retain the attorney? It seems they had someone early on who advised them as well as SA not to talk to LE in PR. Did they give interviews back in July? I sure wish the original thread was back.. We have some major rebuilding to do IMO.

ETA: Yes the parents gave interviews in July. https://www.today.com/news/parents-...ibbean-cruise-ship-share-unfathomable-t159158

 

[LietKynes]

I sure wish the original thread was back.. We have some major rebuilding to do IMO.

lbm

Ita. Someone had requested a mod... but maybe it's lost to the void ??

 

[IceIce9]

lbm

Ita. Someone had requested a mod... but maybe it's lost to the void ??

There were at least two previous threads, would be nice to have them merged with this one.

 

[Montrealaise]

Great pics -- very helpful!
Thanks, @Kindred!

Keep in mind that those pictures were taken from a distance. If you were standing right in front of a window, as SA was, it should be much easier to tell if a window is open or closed.

 

[MyBelle]

So you are saying he had his back to the window but he held Chloe facing the window so she could bang on it?

I am just trying to picture this.

I'm saying he had his back to a window next to the window Chloe was to bang on. I don't believe he placed her on the railing and then stood directly behind her. I think he was standing beside her and still keeping an eye on the play area, his arms got tired of holding her so he rested her on the railing next to him.

JMO

 

[Lilibet]

lbm

Ita. Someone had requested a mod... but maybe it's lost to the void ??

There were at least two previous threads, would be nice to have them merged with this one.

I alerted on a post and requested the threads to be returned, and the next day (yesterday) started a conversation with a mod/staff member (@Darling136) to make a more formal request and haven’t heard back. I will alert/report this post and hope it works this time. I know they are busy. It also occurred to me that the previous threads may have been deleted and no longer exist, rather than just closed.

 

[oviedo]

I alerted on a post and requested the threads to be returned, and the next day (yesterday) started a conversation with a mod/staff member (@Darling136) to make a more formal request and haven’t heard back. I will alert/report this post and hope it works this time. I know they are busy. It also occurred to me that the previous threads may have been deleted and no longer exist, rather than just closed.

Yes, I can imagine they were deleted because there was no arrest - and people probably expressed the same concerns we have but we have an arrest now. Hard for the mods IMO.

I'm certain I have pictures from my last few cruises that show the open windows next to the closed ones. I will see if I can find them because you really can tell quite easily IMO if they are open. I'm still planning to check for the breeze in dock but I know it's very windy on the ship even in dock from when we get on and wait to depart (Port Canaveral). I have 3 RCCL cruises lined up in the next 14 months...

 

[Lilibet]

Unknowingly is a key descriptive. I think those who so desperately want the grandfather convicted in the court of public opinion are overlooking one major detail: the reason why Grandpa and Chloe were in that water play area. I'm confident they were there because of the family's other children and Grandpa offered to watch them while the other adults grabbed a bite to eat. The kid's play area was clearly visible from that location.

I believe he was standing in front of a closed window, facing the play area and-- with his back to the windows--moved to rest Chloe's weight next to him on the railing, not realizing the window in front of her was open.

BBM

I'm saying he had his back to a window next to the window Chloe was to bang on. I don't believe he placed her on the railing and then stood directly behind her. I think he was standing beside her and still keeping an eye on the play area, his arms got tired of holding her so he rested her on the railing next to him.

JMO

No need to accuse those of us who agree with LE of wanting to try the grandfather in the court of public opinion. We are entitled to look at the evidence we have and form an opinion while we wait for a trial or plea deal, just as you are.

If SA was also supervising the other grandkids in the play/pool area, the window area was too far away to see the bottom of the pools, which any responsible adult needs to be able to do. Children have quietly drowned while their parents are sitting right there.

Even with a closed window, it would be unsafe to set her on the railing possibly allowing her to fall backwards from the railing to the floor. If his arms were tired he could set her down to bang on the windows. We have never been given any reason to believe that he was not holding Chloe before she fell. And it still amazes me to think that he would not feel a breeze through an open window, even standing next to it.
JMO

 

[al66pine]

Chloe's Parents & PR Justice Dept, Early July

Quoting Daily Mail, July 11 &12
(1) The couple had met with Justice Department officials on Tuesday and similarly refused to give witness statements, claiming they were on a different part of the ship when Chloe fell and didn't see anything....
(2) DailyMail.com can reveal they were also then given the opportunity to view a 'high quality' video of their daughter's final moments captured from an onboard camera - but were too distraught to watch.
(3) 'The family were asked to come to the Justice Department to talk about what happened but they decided not to since their lawyer had told them not to,' said Justice Department spokesman Kelvin Carrasco.
(4) 'The investigation is going to keep going. Maybe they will be asked to come again.'
The Weigands have retained criminal attorneys in San Juan who have thus far declined to speak to the media." bbm

By parents saying -
(1) ~ We were on a different part of the ship, seems like they made stmts to LE/Justice Dept.
JD can say that's not a 'witness stmt' but regardless it is evidence, could be used at SA's trial imo.
If for ex, a vid surfaces, showing both parents a few feet from SA and Chloe & facing them a few seconds or minute before the fall, well, then, um, uh, yasee, well, er.
If that was to happen, pretty strong evd of the lack of credibility of parents.
Ditto, if a passenger made stmt to same effect - parents were a few steps away. Parents' cred? Low.
For ship board employee saying same, but may be viewed w suspicion of possible bias.
(2) ~ we're too distraught to watch vid, also making a stmt. A totally understandable one.
(3) ~ not going to go to JustDept because atty told them not to, also making a statement of sorts.

From a legal angle, not criticizing them for exercising right to silence.

(4) When JD says investigation is ongoing and maybe parents will be asked to come again, imo, clearly had not ruled out charging parents, at least at that time. Still possible, but I'm not saying likely.

^ https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...falling-arms-cruise-ship-arrives-Chicago.html pub date July 11 & 12

 

[Safeguard]

In any case, I do hope they find him guilty. Not so the family can have "Justice" for little Chloe. Because I don't think that's an issue here. It's a sad, Grandpa <modsnip: profanity not allowed>up, type of deal...

But in an age where parents can come under the scrutiny of Child Protective Services for letting a nine year old walk to a park up the street alone and other utter nonsense, it would be remiss to ignore actual harmful caretaking. Especially when it resulted in a death.

Maybe people can start to distinguish the difference now. Or perhaps, at least think twice about their own safty practices.

 

[MyBelle]

BBM



No need to accuse those of us who agree with LE of wanting to try the grandfather in the court of public opinion. We are entitled to look at the evidence we have and form an opinion while we wait for a trial or plea deal, just as you are.

If SA was also supervising the other grandkids in the play/pool area, the window area was too far away to see the bottom of the pools, which any responsible adult needs to be able to do. Children have quietly drowned while their parents are sitting right there.

Even with a closed window, it would be unsafe to set her on the railing possibly allowing her to fall backwards from the railing to the floor. If his arms were tired he could set her down to bang on the windows. We have never been given any reason to believe that he was not holding Chloe before she fell. And it still amazes me to think that he would not feel a breeze through an open window, even standing next to it.
JMO

BBM. Link please. I've seen no indication whatsoever that LE or the judge wants to try this case in the court of public opinion. That would be a clear violation of the defendant's right to an impartial jury.

JMO

 

[al66pine]

'Conflicting'? Pix of Windows. Maybe Not Matter

the pics i posted all came from the dailymail link - the RCCL big boats are very similar in that deck 11 does have "walls of windows" - 3 high as depicted in the photos....

@oviedo Thanks for your response to my 'portrait' and/or 'landscape' windows post.
Forgive me if you read my post as criticizing the pix. My apologies.
I thought pix came from MSM, probably Daily Mail.
We know all news sites make boo-boos from time to time. Well, some more than others.

And in any case, SA was inside windows-wall (presumably facing windows), what he saw or could have seen is a/the crucial point. IDK if it matters what the window(s) looks like from the outside. jmo.

 

[IceIce9]

For those of you who have taken cruises, do people commonly bring toddlers along? I have never taken a cruise but friends and coworkers who have, and none of them have taken young children along.

 

[TDoc72]

Do we know exactly what window it was? If so, could someone circle it on the deck plan? I want to know exactly how close they were to the splash zone. I don’t think there has been any evidence or link that they were AT or had been playing in the splash zone—I mean, no swimsuits, towels, etc.

 

[Safeguard]

agree. Chloe suffered. She experienced terror and pain

Its extremely unlikely Chloe suffered any pain what so ever. (Shock is a blessing) . Having experienced some serious injuries, I can tell you I felt "nothing", until much later. It's doubtful Chloe felt anything other than stunned. If that.

The horror of what happened to her is terrible enough as is, without dramatic embellishments imo.

t. As reports said, she screamed (and yes, her mother also screamed but Chloe DID know she was falling out of this high place, and she did scream, this was reported.)

I can't imagine she had breath or time to scream. Yup I read those reports. I remain sceptical. I think the ccv will clear that issue up.