IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand

[oviedo]

July 9
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...ng-stories-cruise-ship-window/?outputType=amp

Family of toddler who fell 150ft to her death from cruise ship blame the liner because one window was left OPEN in a wall of glass when the girl's grandfather propped her up against it - as it's revealed he AND her parents had to be sedated
Family of toddler who fell to her death on Caribbean cruise ship says she fell out of open window | Daily Mail Online
Prosecutors have also asked for security footage from the ship and are speaking to witnesses.

Really interesting the media stories in early July - none of the family made statements to LE - this find that curious as I would think SA would want his story told immediately.

Prosecutors submitted evidence for the arrest warrant - is that public? I think it will tell the story based on their investigation and the video - I don’t think they took this matter lightly IMO

 

[oviedo]

BBM



No need to accuse those of us who agree with LE of wanting to try the grandfather in the court of public opinion. We are entitled to look at the evidence we have and form an opinion while we wait for a trial or plea deal, just as you are.

If SA was also supervising the other grandkids in the play/pool area, the window area was too far away to see the bottom of the pools, which any responsible adult needs to be able to do. Children have quietly drowned while their parents are sitting right there.

Even with a closed window, it would be unsafe to set her on the railing possibly allowing her to fall backwards from the railing to the floor. If his arms were tired he could set her down to bang on the windows. We have never been given any reason to believe that he was not holding Chloe before she fell. And it still amazes me to think that he would not feel a breeze through an open window, even standing next to it.
JMO

Yes I checked with my other cruise mates and the breeze up top is substantial even when At the dock - I’m going back and reading the July reports on MSM - interesting

 

[MsBetsy]

I think my wording may have been awkward when I replied to MyBelle originally. I think if you read my post #464 which I have edited for clarity, it may make sense. What I was trying to point out was that MyBelle was saying that those of us who agree with LE’s arrest of grandpa are the ones trying the case in the court of public opinion. I did not mean that LE is. I apologize for the awkward wording that apparently made the meaning unclear.

Oh, ok. No worries.
I once got stuck on a post that referred to a family member as the victims "blood" and thought they were talking about the blood evidence of the victim. I kept reading it over and over and still couldn't understand it.

 

[SuziQ]

I am reposting the video of the same deck on the same ship for anyone who has not seen it yet. It is a must see. It answered all of my questions. Remember it was daylight when Chloe fell. Don't go by the nighttime pic the family's attorney is showing. You can absolutely see which windows are open. You can see where the railing is and how high the Windows are. You can see the play area off in the distance. Make sure you watch to the end when the photographer looks out of one of the windows.

 

[mjp1228]

I've never quite understood this story. Honestly I think he had to have known the window was open? As for the hockey glass...that window looks nothing like that in my opinion?

I think it was negligence, but to charge him with manslaughter...I'm not sure how I feel about that either. When they immediately blamed and sued the cruise ship...well that was creepy and weird too.

I'm all over the place with this one. I'm just not totally sure about any of this?

If I was on the jury and saw the picture of the child standing - by herself ON THE GROUND - my first thought would be that the picture didn’t help their case at all. It doesn’t show that she was used to grandfather LIFTING her up to bang on windows. It doesn’t show that was their usual practice. IMO he was playing some type of game with her and simply lost his grip. A tragic accident. Shortly after come the changes in the story, lack of family cooperation, blame on cruise line, then lawsuit filled pretty fast.

 

[MsBetsy]

July 9
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2019/07/08/one-year-old-girl-dies-after-falling-stories-cruise-ship-window/?outputType=amp

Family of toddler who fell 150ft to her death from cruise ship blame the liner because one window was left OPEN in a wall of glass when the girl's grandfather propped her up against it - as it's revealed he AND her parents had to be sedated
Family of toddler who fell to her death on Caribbean cruise ship says she fell out of open window | Daily Mail Online
Prosecutors have also asked for security footage from the ship and are speaking to witnesses.

Really interesting the media stories in early July - none of the family made statements to LE - this find that curious as I would think SA would want his story told immediately.

Prosecutors submitted evidence for the arrest warrant - is that public? I think it will tell the story based on their investigation and the video - I don’t think they took this matter lightly IMO

How long had they been on the ship when this happened? Had they just boarded?
Could he have been drinking?

 

[Kindred]

Prosecutors submitted evidence for the arrest warrant - is that public? I think it will tell the story based on their investigation and the video - I don’t think they took this matter lightly IMO

Dunno know how much is public but I did manage to find the docket for the Nov 30 hearing

 

[oviedo]

How long had they been on the ship when this happened? Had they just boarded?
Could he have been drinking?

It happened between 4:30-5pm - every RCCl cruise I’ve been on (9) we board around 11 am and I don’t mind saying I’m at the bar having the welcome aboard cocktails since I’m on my favorite vacation.

Smoking is allowed on one side - every public deck/promenade - I have to hold my nose when I’m running on the smoking side - it is not allowed on balconies or staterooms but people sneak them - I can smell it a mile away

 

[mjp1228]

He was pulled over in Lake and Porter Counties in northern Indiana. I-80 is a toll road across northern Indiana. State patrol constantly pulls people over for speeding, including my DD last year. She had her car's cruise control set but also was alone. Easier to pay the fine than try to fight the ticket.

Equating traffic tickets with homicide is a bit of a stretch.

JMO

You always fight the speeding tickets. You at least get a 50/50 chance that the officer that stopped you might not show up for court that day. He could be tied up with other things I’ve seen it happen.

 

[Lilibet]

You can absolutely see which windows are open. You can see where the railing is and how high the Windows are. You can see the play area off in the distance. Make sure you watch to the end when the photographer looks out of one of the windows.

Yes, it’s absolutely clear which windows are open. The play area is too far away for grandpa to be supervising other grandkids. There are no kids running around this area that is clearly for adults. I had missed the fact that the railing is right at the level of the bottom of the open window. I had thought it was a little lower...scary! Chloe should never have been held near the window or on the rail. No way!

 

[MsBetsy]

It happened between 4:30-5pm - every RCCl cruise I’ve been on (9) we board around 11 am and I don’t mind saying I’m at the bar having the welcome aboard cocktails since I’m on my favorite vacation.

Smoking is allowed on one side - every public deck/promenade - I have to hold my nose when I’m running on the smoking side - it is not allowed on balconies or staterooms but people sneak them - I can smell it a mile away

Well, if he was intoxicated that may be one reason LE is charging him with negligent homicide.
I just can't see them charging him for lifting her up to bang on the window or seat her on the ledge, if it was the ledge on the inside.
He must have done something that he should have known might endanger the child.
You don't drive with a child in the car if you're under the influence and you probably shouldn't hold a child up to an open window 11 stories high.

Not that we know that's what happened, but there has to be something more.

Imo

 

[LvsAMystry]

I am reposting the video of the same deck on the same ship for anyone who has not seen it yet. It is a must see. It answered all of my questions. Remember it was daylight when Chloe fell. Don't go by the nighttime pic the family's attorney is showing. You can absolutely see which windows are open. You can see where the railing is and how high the Windows are. You can see the play area off in the distance. Make sure you watch to the end when the photographer looks out of one of the windows.

Thank you for reposting I agree it’s a must see and provides best perspective.

If the idea had been to let her bang on the windows, she easily could have stayed on the floor and banged on the lower set that don’t open. No need to place her on what is a precarious bannister like railing that could have caused significant injury from a fall even if not out an open window.

Setting her up on the higher windows, open or not, makes no sense and is an after event excuse.

 

[oviedo]

I am reposting the video of the same deck on the same ship for anyone who has not seen it yet. It is a must see. It answered all of my questions. Remember it was daylight when Chloe fell. Don't go by the nighttime pic the family's attorney is showing. You can absolutely see which windows are open. You can see where the railing is and how high the Windows are. You can see the play area off in the distance. Make sure you watch to the end when the photographer looks out of one of the windows.

I finally watched this - wow what I was remembering is exactly this - the story is he sat her on the rail - look how far away that is from the opening - IMO he either let her go (maybe a game?) and she slipped forward or he tripped and let her go to break his fall - both are versions of what’s been reported (not the game part) - no way could he think for one second there was glass there if he was not impaired IMO

 

[LadyL]

Well, so far we haven't seen the evidence that suggests gross negligence.
Being careless or not paying attention usually doesn't result in a charge of negligent homicide.
Usually it is characterized by conduct that "grossly deviates" from ordinary care.
There must be more to the story that we have not heard.

Imo

thanks for saying what I was thinking

 

[mjp1228]

I don’t think anyone said all elderly people drink. And he’s only 50 or 51, IIRC so I wouldn’t even consider grandfather to be elderly.

He’s at least 10 years younger than me and I’m not considered elderly by anyone that knows me. I’m still trying to decide what I want to be when I grow up.

Another post referred to the family saying he wasn’t a drinker. I have friends I would describe the same way - meaning they wouldn’t be comfortable going out for a night bar hopping with us. But they do have a glass of wine or two with dinner. He could have done something as simple as that. I don’t know whether alcohol was involved or not but, IMO, he just didn’t use common sense. He was careless. Not the ship’s fault. All on him.

 

[Lilibet]

Well, if he was intoxicated that may be one reason LE is charging him with negligent homicide.
I just can't see them charging him for lifting her up to bang on the window or seat her on the ledge, if it was the ledge on the inside.
He must have done something that he should have known might endanger the child.

Imo

Yes, I expect “negligent” homicide is full of meaning in this case, with the evidence to match, whatever it is. Even if he was sober, sitting or standing her on the railing along the window is negligent, but I’m speaking as someone who is “edge phobic.” I will hazard a guess that he either sat her on the railing or on the edge of the open window with her legs dangling outside. If she got scared and struggled, he could have lost his balance and his grip. But I could be way off and will be interested in the evidence. It’s a tragedy.

 

[LadyL]

I am reposting the video of the same deck on the same ship for anyone who has not seen it yet. It is a must see. It answered all of my questions. Remember it was daylight when Chloe fell. Don't go by the nighttime pic the family's attorney is showing. You can absolutely see which windows are open. You can see where the railing is and how high the Windows are. You can see the play area off in the distance. Make sure you watch to the end when the photographer looks out of one of the windows.

wow it's so high up!

 

[Kindred]

I finally watched this - wow what I was remembering is exactly this - the story is he sat her on the rail - look how far away that is from the opening - IMO he either let her go (maybe a game?) and she slipped forward or he tripped and let her go to break his fall - both are versions of what’s been reported (not the game part) - no way could he think for one second there was glass there if he was not impaired IMO

It's not really that far, less then a foot. It just looks far because of the way he has the camera tilted more outward to get the outside view and the rail is just a bit higher than the bottom ledge of the window. So if he had set her tush on the railing her feet could have dangled and rested on the bottom of the window frame or just outside of it.

 

[LietKynes]

Even with the window closed she could've slipped from the railing and hit her head on the edge of the windowsill.
And that hockey rink photo, she was standing on the floor with her hands pressed against the glass.
Even though that ice rink glass is safe and tempered -- I cringe to see kids banging on any glass surface.
Smh.

 

[LadyL]

I finally watched this - wow what I was remembering is exactly this - the story is he sat her on the rail - look how far away that is from the opening - IMO he either let her go (maybe a game?) and she slipped forward or he tripped and let her go to break his fall - both are versions of what’s been reported (not the game part) - no way could he think for one second there was glass there if he was not impaired IMO

I don't see how he couldn't tell the window was open but even IF he didn't know ... why would you trust the glass was strong enough to lean a toddler against it? I'm one of those people that does not feel safe on high balconies and does not lean on/against railings or glass and would be even more careful with a baby in my care

but I really do need more information before judging the grandfather in the most tragic and terrible time of his life