IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand

[MsBetsy]

BBM



No need to accuse those of us who agree with LE of wanting to try the grandfather in the court of public opinion. We are entitled to look at the evidence we have and form an opinion while we wait for a trial or plea deal, just as you are.

If SA was also supervising the other grandkids in the play/pool area, the window area was too far away to see the bottom of the pools, which any responsible adult needs to be able to do. Children have quietly drowned while their parents are sitting right there.

Even with a closed window, it would be unsafe to set her on the railing possibly allowing her to fall backwards from the railing to the floor. If his arms were tired he could set her down to bang on the windows. We have never been given any reason to believe that he was not holding Chloe before she fell. And it still amazes me to think that he would not feel a breeze through an open window, even standing next to it.
JMO

LE wants to try the grandfather in the court of public opinion?
Exactly how does that work?

 

[Safeguard]

It amazes me that Winkleman is playing dumb with his comments. He has been involved in numerous cruise line lawsuits and knows full well that practically every cruise ship has similar type windows on the open upper decks. The windows are usually tinted to prevent glare, and it's easy to tell which windows are open and which aren't.

I don't think he's playing dumb. I think he's playing lawyer and he doesn't have chit to go on, so what he is able to come up with just sounds ridiculous.

 

[Safeguard]

Excellent point about the smoking! Neither DH nor I have ever smoked, so we really don't pay much attention to which areas of the many cruise ships on which we've sailed are smoking or non-smoking. It's entirely possible that SA wanted to smoke and took Chloe to an area of the ship where he'd be able to light up. Surveillance video will show what G'pa was doing and where other family members were and what they were doing at the time of the incident.

Omg. I hadn't even considered that. I had no idea you could smoke inside ship. But yes, I could see where they lose revenue by a strict no smoking ever on a cruise. Even Disney parks have designated smoking areas. ( those little enclaves were one of the high points of my trip, where I would gather, at night, relaxing with the same small group of people from all over the world, and we would talk about our day and recommend attractions! ).

But the very thought, that my need for a smoke would cause the death of a child!
Oh. Uhg! God I hope thats not what happened But the ccv footage has been reported as "very conclusive". So the truth will come out eventually.

"The wheels of Justice turn slowly". As the saying goes.

 

[oviedo]

'Conflicting'? Pix of Windows. Maybe Not Matter

@oviedo Thanks for your response to my 'portrait' and/or 'landscape' windows post.
Forgive me if you read my post as criticizing the pix. My apologies.
I thought pix came from MSM, probably Daily Mail.
We know all news sites make boo-boos from time to time. Well, some more than others.

And in any case, SA was inside windows-wall (presumably facing windows), what he saw or could have seen is a/the crucial point. IDK if it matters what the window(s) looks like from the outside. jmo.

No not at all - he was inside for sure - the outside pics do give us a sense of scale IMO

 

[Lilibet]

BBM. Link please. I've seen no indication whatsoever that LE or the judge wants to try this case in the court of public opinion. That would be a clear violation of the defendant's right to an impartial jury.

JMO

Huh?! Where did that come from? You have bolded only the latter part of my post, ignoring the first part of the sentence, which clearly read:

No need to accuse those of us who agree with LE of wanting to try the grandfather in the court of public opinion.

BBM

I was referencing/quoting and bolding your post, MyBelle. I said nothing about LE or the judge trying this in the court of public opinion, and neither did you. Perhaps my wording was awkward and led to a mis-reading, but I was saying that you were accusing us (those who agree with LE’s arrest) of wanting the grandfather tried in the court of public opinion. Since we are discussing this case on a WS thread, I could only conclude that you were referring to fellow posters, and I don’t think you are characterizing us fairly. Here is what I was referencing:

I think those who so desperately want the grandfather convicted in the court of public opinion are overlooking one major detail

I hope this is clear now.

 

[oviedo]

Omg. I hadn't even considered that. I had no idea you could smoke inside ship. But yes, I could see where they lose revenue by a strict no smoking ever on a cruise. Even Disney parks have designated smoking areas. ( those little enclaves were one of the high points of my trip, where I would gather, at night, relaxing with the same small group of people from all over the world, and we would talk about our day and recommend attractions! ).

But the very thought, that my need for a smoke would cause the death of a child!
Oh. Uhg! God I hope not what happened But the ccv footage has been reported as "very conclusive". So the truth will come out eventually.

"The wheels of Justice turn slowly". As the saying goes.

Yes I agree I think the video is going to tell the story - I was looking at early MSM in July and there were witnesses who saw the whole thing that were interviewed so they can call them as well -IMO the blaming of the cruise ship quite possibly triggered the past few months investigation because they (RCCL) haven’t said anything beyond they were cooperating with the authorities and it’s in their best interest to have the whole story told IMO

 

[Lilibet]

LE wants to try the grandfather in the court of public opinion?
Exactly how does that work?

Please reread MyBelle’s post to which I was replying and my subsequent reply to her post which made the same assertion as you about what I did NOT say. Apparently my wording was awkward in my use of the word “of” and may have lead to a misreading. Thank you.

 

[LadyL]

I'm surprised the grandpa has been charged

 

[Kindred]

I cant imagine she had breath or time to scream. Yup I read those reports. I remain sceptical. I think the ccv will clear that issue up.

There isn't any sound on those CCV cameras, but there's no reason to believe that a terrified toddler didn't scream as she fell. People bungee jumping have enough time to scream so why wouldn't she?

There actually is public video of other people who have fallen off cruise ships. This is a news report about a woman who fell from a Carnival cruise (only 7 decks as opposed to Chloe's 11) and survived to tell of her experience. It shows the exterior footage of the fall (not the landing, just her falling) and also goes on to show some of the technology. It's from 2014 so I would hope that they have upgraded but it still gives a pretty good idea of just how many cameras and angles they probably have of the incident

 

[Safeguard]

Yes I agree I think the video is going to tell the story - I was looking at early MSM in July and there were witnesses who saw the whole thing that were interviewed so they can call them as well -IMO the blaming of the cruise ship quite possibly triggered the past few months investigation because they (RCCL) haven’t said anything beyond they were cooperating with the authorities and it’s in their best interest to have the whole story told IMO

Hmmm. The last article I read, said there were no witnesses. Not one eye witness to the actual incident. Just folks who hear Moms "unearthly scream"... Do you, by any chance have a link you could share? TIA!

 

[Safeguard]

I'm surprised the grandpa has been charged

Why?

 

[MsBetsy]

Yes I agree I think the video is going to tell the story - I was looking at early MSM in July and there were witnesses who saw the whole thing that were interviewed so they can call them as well -IMO the blaming of the cruise ship quite possibly triggered the past few months investigation because they (RCCL) haven’t said anything beyond they were cooperating with the authorities and it’s in their best interest to have the whole story told IMO

Yes, the video and/or witness statements must have revealed some sort of evidence that suggests gross negligence for LE to charge him with negligent homicide.

Usually such a charge suggests behavior that deviates from ordinary care, such as reckless actions or intoxication or something like that.
I can't imagine they would charge him just for holding the child up to look out or bang on a window.

At first it was described as if the grandfather lost his balance and lost his grasp of her and she fell.
I wonder what evidence it is that they have.
The lawyer for the family claims he has not seen the video yet.

Imo

 

[Lilibet]

I don't think he's playing dumb. I think he's playing lawyer and he doesn't have chit to go on, so what he is able to come up with just sounds ridiculous.

Lawyers being deliberately obtuse when they have no evidence in their favor seems to be quite common nowadays.

 

[oviedo]

Hmmm. The last article I read, said there were no witnesses. Not one eye witness to the actual incident. Just folks who hear Moms "unearthly scream"... Do you, by any chance have a link you could share? TIA!

Chloe Wiegand: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com

“According to officials in the U.S. territory, Chloe Wiegand was 18 months old at the time of her death. She had been on a family vacation with her parents, two siblings, and two sets of grandparents. The tragedy occurred on board the Freedom of the Seas ship at the Panamerican dock on July 7. The family hails from Indiana. They had boarded the ship in Puerto Rico. It had been due to depart at 8:30 p.m. local time on the day of the tragedy. Wiegand fell to her death at around 5 p.m.”

Snipped - and there were other reports referencing the crew interviews. I think nbc early reports -
Wiegand’s mother is Kimberly Schultz Wiegand. A witness to the tragedy told Telemundo that Kimberly’s crying did “not compare to any other scream.”

 

[sl222]

Its extremely unlikely Chloe suffered any pain what so ever. (Shock is a blessing) . Having experienced some serious injuries, I can tell you I felt "nothing", until much later. It's doubtful Chloe felt anything other than stunned. If that.

The horror of what happened to her is terrible enough as is, without dramatic embellishments imo.

I can't imagine she had breath or time to scream. Yup I read those reports. I remain sceptical. I think the ccv will clear that issue up.

I don't appreciate you referring to my comments as a dramatic embellishment. Please in the future, state your opinions without casting aspersions at someone else's post.

 

[MsBetsy]

Why?

Well, so far we haven't seen the evidence that suggests gross negligence.
Being careless or not paying attention usually doesn't result in a charge of negligent homicide.
Usually it is characterized by conduct that "grossly deviates" from ordinary care.
There must be more to the story that we have not heard.

Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

Lawyers being deliberately obtuse when they have no evidence in their favor seems to be quite common nowadays.

I don't think he has the evidence at all.
Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

Please reread MyBelle’s post to which I was replying and my subsequent reply to her post which made the same assertion as you about what I did NOT say. Apparently my wording was awkward in my use of the word “of” and may have lead to a misreading. Thank you.

It was the part about LE wanting to try the case in the court of public opinion I was confused about.
I thought they tried to avoid that.
Maybe I misunderstood the meaning.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Omg. I hadn't even considered that. I had no idea you could smoke inside ship. But yes, I could see where they lose revenue by a strict no smoking ever on a cruise. Even Disney parks have designated smoking areas. ( those little enclaves were one of the high points of my trip, where I would gather, at night, relaxing with the same small group of people from all over the world, and we would talk about our day and recommend attractions! ).

But the very thought, that my need for a smoke would cause the death of a child!
Oh. Uhg! God I hope thats not what happened But the ccv footage has been reported as "very conclusive"...

I haven't sailed on a RCCL ship for at least 20 years and cannot speak to their smoking policy. DH and I usually sail with Princess, so I know what their smoking policy is even though neither DH nor I have ever smoked. Smoking is not permitted in passenger staterooms or on balconies. No smoking in enclosed venues, i.e. dining rooms, theatres, lounges, shops, etc. with the exception of the casino on designated "smoking" nights. Smoking is permitted on one side of certain open deck areas on upper levels of the ship (I don't know which side because I don't smoke). Some Princess ships also have a dedicated smoking lounge where cigar smoking is permitted. Passengers who are caught smoking in staterooms or on balconies or in other non-smoking areas of the ship can be fined.

 

[Lilibet]

It was the part about LE wanting to try the case in the court of public opinion I was confused about.
I thought they tried to avoid that.
Maybe I misunderstood the meaning.

I think my wording may have been awkward when I replied to MyBelle originally. I think if you read my post #464 which I have edited for clarity, it may make sense. What I was trying to point out was that MyBelle was saying that those of us who agree with LE’s arrest of grandpa are the ones trying the case in the court of public opinion. I did not mean that LE is. I apologize for the awkward wording that apparently made the meaning unclear. But I stand by my statement that it is an unfair characterization of members of this thread. ‘Nuf said.