IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand

[al66pine]

Position of G'father w Chloe Resting on Rail? Safe? Alternatives?

I'm saying he had his back to a window next to the window Chloe was to bang on. I don't believe he placed her on the railing and then stood directly behind her. I think he was standing beside her and still keeping an eye on the play area, his arms got tired of holding her so he rested her on the railing next to him. JMO

@MyBelle Thanks for clarifying this, but still trying to follow the purported logic.
Positions on the Rail?
IIUC ^ G'father faced the pool/splash area, was standing w his back to/touching rail, and when some ppl think, his arms tired, he placed baby on the rail, right next to him, but she was facing window(s)/exterior.
So w this rail (how wide? three inches? imo) did he --
1. leave her there on the rail, balancing herself w a gymnast's poise?
2. position her closely so his outer forearm touched/leaned against her body, balancing her that way?
3. position her closely so his arm at her waist to balance her and ---
a. put his arm between her waist and ship interior, his hand curling around to grasp waist?
b. put his arm between her waist and window side, his hand curling around to grasp waist?
How Safe?
How safe would these resting on the railing positions be?
Does anyone think 1 or 2 is reasonably safe?
What about 3a or 3b?
3a. W his arm between her waist and ship interior, can his hand actually curl to grasp waist? IDTS.
3b. Facing window(s) to bang on it/them could be accomplished only by leaning outward toward the window/exterior (unless she had chimpanzee-length arms which I did not notice), so Chloe's body weight would bear down on G'father's tired arm. Yes, one of G'father's tired arms.
Other Factors
And --- as others have noted, a toddler like Chloe wiggles making it hard to keep a tot securely in arms
And --- even if not squirming, w heavy, toddler heads, 18 mo old tots are prone to lose their balance. They tend not to be stable while stationery or walking.
Alternatives for G'father, w or w/out 'Tired Arms'
Let Chloe stand on floor?
Let her lean against G'father's legs or a post supporting the rail?
Sit down in chair, put Chloe on lap or adjacent chair.
Let Chloe sit on floor. (ick)
Call Mom & Dad back.
Deliver Chloe to Mom & Dad.
Or ???

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

And the family wants to just move on...

 

[Sillybilly]

Stop arguing in this thread. If you disagree, do so respectfully and move on.

Whether you think SA should have been charged or not is irrelevant and is not going to change the fact that he HAS been charged, so please discuss the case from that standpoint.

 

[TDoc72]

By repeatedly saying that the window was in a children's (or family) play area, the family is trying to imply that the window was easily accessible to children and therefore dangerous. We know the window is several feet off the ground and has a safety railing in front of it, so the only way a child could reach it is if an adult lifted her up and over the railing - which is what happened.

It’s so dishonest to misrepresent the location of the window this way. When anyone repeats the same false statement over and over again to the press it appears they are trying to sway public opinion and influence people who don’t dig deeper. We see this all the time nowadays. But this won’t hold up in a real court, thankfully.

Both of these posts are perfection. A like just wasn’t enough.

 

[LietKynes]

Both of these posts are perfection. A like just wasn’t enough.

Ita.
You beat me to it !

Was going to say that the RCC line and other cruise ships even make it difficult for adults to accidentally fall overboard.
Hence the height of railings around the outer edges where there's access to look out at the ocean.

 

[Sillybilly]

I alerted on a post and requested the threads to be returned, and the next day (yesterday) started a conversation with a mod/staff member (@Darling136) to make a more formal request and haven’t heard back. I will alert/report this post and hope it works this time. I know they are busy. It also occurred to me that the previous threads may have been deleted and no longer exist, rather than just closed.

The previous threads still exist. We are waiting for Tricia to weigh in on merging and re-opening them because she closed the threads with a stern warning about opening any others. We are letting only this thread stand because the GPa has now been charged (which was not the case with the previous threads). Please be patient; Tricia just hasn't been able to get back to us yet.

 

[SoCalDavidS]

Reading between the lines, it would not surprise me if GP had something to drink prior to the incident. We won't have 100% confirmation of how much, since he refused to take any sort of test.

Now it's mighty convenient that Papa Policeman & Mama Lawyer advised the refusal of any test, and got GP out of PR as quickly as possible. I wonder what he would say if someone in a fatal auto accident did the same, and he was the officer on the scene. Hypocrite, although he used his cop clout to his advantage, and was successful in avoiding a test which could have been quite damaging to GP.

Now one wonders, if he was completely sober, and had not had a drink all day, then why not submit to the test? PR law enforcement dropped the ball on that one, as I can't imagine they were unable to force a breathalyzer test given the circumstances. They chose to let him just say no.

If he was drinking, they will have to piece it together, through his and perhaps other family members' cruise cards, and maybe even cameras or witnesses who might have noticed him drinking. It wouldn't surprise me if his lawyer uses the lack of a breath test against the prosecution, arguing that they can't prove he had alcohol in his system. Never mind the fact it was his client that obstructed that test from happening to begin with.

I might be way off, but I'm beginning to think that this could tie in with their decision to charge with negligence, rather than consider this an innocent accident. And it goes back to what they are trying to make sound like an innocent refusal of the test......why refuse if you have not had a drink?

 

[oviedo]

Position of G'father w Chloe Resting on Rail? Safe? Alternatives?
@MyBelle Thanks for clarifying this, but still trying to follow the purported logic.
Positions on the Rail?
IIUC ^ G'father faced the pool/splash area, was standing w his back to/touching rail, and when some ppl think, his arms tired, he placed baby on the rail, right next to him, but she was facing window(s)/exterior.
So w this rail (how wide? three inches? imo) did he --
1. leave her there on the rail, balancing herself w a gymnast's poise?
2. position her closely so his outer forearm touched/leaned against her body, balancing her that way?
3. position her closely so his arm at her waist to balance her and ---
a. put his arm between her waist and ship interior, his hand curling around to grasp waist?
b. put his arm between her waist and window side, his hand curling around to grasp waist?
How Safe?
How safe would these resting on the railing positions be?
Does anyone think 1 or 2 is reasonably safe?
What about 3a or 3b?
3a. W his arm between her waist and ship interior, can his hand actually curl to grasp waist? IDTS.
3b. Facing window(s) to bang on it/them could be accomplished only by leaning outward toward the window/exterior (unless she had chimpanzee-length arms which I did not notice), so Chloe's body weight would bear down on G'father's tired arm. Yes, one of G'father's tired arms.
Other Factors
And --- as others have noted, a toddler like Chloe wiggles making it hard to keep a tot securely in arms
And --- even if not squirming, w heavy, toddler heads, 18 mo old tots are prone to lose their balance. They tend not to be stable while stationery or walking.
Alternatives for G'father, w or w/out 'Tired Arms'
Let Chloe stand on floor?
Let her lean against G'father's legs or a post supporting the rail?
Sit down in chair, put Chloe on lap or adjacent chair.
Let Chloe sit on floor. (ick)
Call Mom & Dad back.
Deliver Chloe to Mom & Dad.
Or ???

I screenshot this from the video of Freedom posted upthread - this May shed light in your positioning questions which IMO are well thought out - it didn’t occur to me that his back could be to the window and still seat the baby on the railing so she either fell out facing the window or with her back to it depending on how he held her - the video from the ship will likely show it since we know they have it yet the parents haven’t viewed it for themselves based on the original MSM stories

 

[Safeguard]

I don't appreciate you referring to my comments as a dramatic embellishment. Please in the future, state your opinions without casting aspersions at someone else's post.

I wasn't "casting aspersions"...
We don't know that she felt any pain.

 

[MyBelle]

Interesting how the "children's play area" has changed to "family play area" when in my view, the area shown in the pictures on this thread are neither. It looks like a typical lounge area, such as one would find in a hotel and apparently there's a bar nearby. The children's play area is depicted else (for that liner) and it's on a different floor.

I wonder how the family will try and explain in court how Chloe went out the window. The window was open for air flow (quite explicable) and she didn't go out on her own. Someone had to lift her up...

The H2O children's water play area is on the 11th floor of the Freedom of the Seas. There are also pools that would be for adults, families. In this photo, the covered area with the bank of windows is easily seen from the water play area. I don't believe a jury in the civil case is going to be confused.

H2O Zone on Royal Caribbean Freedom of the Seas Ship - Cruise Critic

 

[Safeguard]

Position of G'father w Chloe Resting on Rail? Safe? Alternatives?
@MyBelle Thanks for clarifying this, but still trying to follow the purported logic.
Positions on the Rail?
IIUC ^ G'father faced the pool/splash area, was standing w his back to/touching rail, and when some ppl think, his arms tired, he placed baby on the rail, right next to him, but she was facing window(s)/exterior.
So w this rail (how wide? three inches? imo) did he --
1. leave her there on the rail, balancing herself w a gymnast's poise?
2. position her closely so his outer forearm touched/leaned against her body, balancing her that way?
3. position her closely so his arm at her waist to balance her and ---
a. put his arm between her waist and ship interior, his hand curling around to grasp waist?
b. put his arm between her waist and window side, his hand curling around to grasp waist?
How Safe?
How safe would these resting on the railing positions be?
Does anyone think 1 or 2 is reasonably safe?
What about 3a or 3b?
3a. W his arm between her waist and ship interior, can his hand actually curl to grasp waist? IDTS.
3b. Facing window(s) to bang on it/them could be accomplished only by leaning outward toward the window/exterior (unless she had chimpanzee-length arms which I did not notice), so Chloe's body weight would bear down on G'father's tired arm. Yes, one of G'father's tired arms.
Other Factors
And --- as others have noted, a toddler like Chloe wiggles making it hard to keep a tot securely in arms
And --- even if not squirming, w heavy, toddler heads, 18 mo old tots are prone to lose their balance. They tend not to be stable while stationery or walking.
Alternatives for G'father, w or w/out 'Tired Arms'
Let Chloe stand on floor?
Let her lean against G'father's legs or a post supporting the rail?
Sit down in chair, put Chloe on lap or adjacent chair.
Let Chloe sit on floor. (ick)
Call Mom & Dad back.
Deliver Chloe to Mom & Dad.
Or ???

I don't think he had his back to the window. (s). There was no reason for him to need to keep an eye on the splash pool.

 

[MsBetsy]

Reading between the lines, it would not surprise me if GP had something to drink prior to the incident. We won't have 100% confirmation of how much, since he refused to take any sort of test.

Now it's mighty convenient that Papa Policeman & Mama Lawyer advised the refusal of any test, and got GP out of PR as quickly as possible. I wonder what he would say if someone in a fatal auto accident did the same, and he was the officer on the scene. Hypocrite, although he used his cop clout to his advantage, and was successful in avoiding a test which could have been quite damaging to GP.

Now one wonders, if he was completely sober, and had not had a drink all day, then why not submit to the test? PR law enforcement dropped the ball on that one, as I can't imagine they were unable to force a breathalyzer test given the circumstances. They chose to let him just say no.

If he was drinking, they will have to piece it together, through his and perhaps other family members' cruise cards, and maybe even cameras or witnesses who might have noticed him drinking. It wouldn't surprise me if his lawyer uses the lack of a breath test against the prosecution, arguing that they can't prove he had alcohol in his system. Never mind the fact it was his client that obstructed that test from happening to begin with.

I might be way off, but I'm beginning to think that this could tie in with their decision to charge with negligence, rather than consider this an innocent accident. And it goes back to what they are trying to make sound like an innocent refusal of the test......why refuse if you have not had a drink?

His lawyer advised him to refuse a breathalyzer test?
I thought they usually advised you against that, since it can be viewed as an admission of guilt?

Imo

 

[neesaki]

So you are saying he had his back to the window but he held Chloe facing the window so she could bang on it?

I am just trying to picture this.

What post are you referring to?
Ugh, Nevermind, I should just quit, been away all afternoon now have no idea what’s going on.
Oh well.

 

[Lilibet]

What post are you referring to?
Ugh, Nevermind, I should just quit, been away all afternoon now have no idea what’s going on.
Oh well.

Here you go neesaki. The idea that grandpa had his back to the window is based on the theory that he was also watching other grandkids in the pool/play area. But we have no evidence he was.

Unknowingly is a key descriptive. I think those who so desperately want the grandfather convicted in the court of public opinion are overlooking one major detail: the reason why Grandpa and Chloe were in that water play area. I'm confident they were there because of the family's other children and Grandpa offered to watch them while the other adults grabbed a bite to eat. The kid's play area was clearly visible from that location.

I believe he was standing in front of a closed window, facing the play area and-- with his back to the windows--moved to rest Chloe's weight next to him on the railing, not realizing the window in front of her was open.

JMO

BBM

I'm saying he had his back to a window next to the window Chloe was to bang on. I don't believe he placed her on the railing and then stood directly behind her. I think he was standing beside her and still keeping an eye on the play area, his arms got tired of holding her so he rested her on the railing next to him.

JMO

BBM

 

[neesaki]

Its extremely unlikely Chloe suffered any pain what so ever. (Shock is a blessing) . Having experienced some serious injuries, I can tell you I felt "nothing", until much later. It's doubtful Chloe felt anything other than stunned. If that.

The horror of what happened to her is terrible enough as is, without dramatic embellishments imo.



I can't imagine she had breath or time to scream. Yup I read those reports. I remain sceptical. I think the ccv will clear that issue up.

Whether she experienced pain upon impact or not, she for sure experienced extreme shock and sheer terror while falling.
That poor, sweet baby. :cry:

 

[Kindred]

The H2O children's water play area is on the 11th floor of the Freedom of the Seas. There are also pools that would be for adults, families. In this photo, the covered area with the bank of windows is easily seen from the water play area. I don't believe a jury in the civil case is going to be confused.

H2O Zone on Royal Caribbean Freedom of the Seas Ship - Cruise Critic

actually this angle is better if you want to compare the H2O Zone and the windows

The Freedom of the Seas is 126.6 feet wide at her widest point, almost as wide as Chloe fell. That splash pad is not that big. There is at least 30 feet, if not more, on either side of the actual play area. That 30 feet is occupied by lounge chairs and tables. There's at least 3 rows of seating visible. The windows are CLEARLY NOT a play area. Just because they are adjacent to a play area does not make them a play area. There is also a bar clearly visible in that shaded seating area.

I'm more inclined to say it's a bar area since the bar is at least under the shading and against the windows whereas the splash pad is in the center of the deck and there is NOTHING to play with in the seating area.

 

[Lilibet]

ETA: I see we’re of one mind @Kindred!

Here is a video of the H2O Zone “Kid’s Pool” on Deck 11. There is a lot of activity, running around and several pools and spas. The windows are separated by lounge chairs, the walkway and more lounge chairs and tables. It would be very difficult to adequately supervise grandkids in the busy pool area from the vantage point of the windows, where SA stood with Chloe. The open windows are in no way adjacent to the pool area. (See video tour that includes deck 12 for a more unsafe area.)
JMO

This almost 12 minute video shows decks 11 and 12. From deck 12, you can get a good idea of the layout of deck 11 pools. It’s also interesting that the rails on deck 12 are easily climbed. At first I thought it might be an adults-only deck, but I saw a little girl arrive on that deck, apparently unaccompanied.

The deck 11 plan.

Deck Plans | Freedom of the Seas | Royal Caribbean Cruises

 

[Lilibet]

The previous threads still exist. We are waiting for Tricia to weigh in on merging and re-opening them because she closed the threads with a stern warning about opening any others. We are letting only this thread stand because the GPa has now been charged (which was not the case with the previous threads). Please be patient; Tricia just hasn't been able to get back to us yet.

Thanks SB and Tricia!

 

[MyBelle]

Position of G'father w Chloe Resting on Rail? Safe? Alternatives?
@MyBelle Thanks for clarifying this, but still trying to follow the purported logic.
Positions on the Rail?
IIUC ^ G'father faced the pool/splash area, was standing w his back to/touching rail, and when some ppl think, his arms tired, he placed baby on the rail, right next to him, but she was facing window(s)/exterior.
So w this rail (how wide? three inches? imo) did he --
1. leave her there on the rail, balancing herself w a gymnast's poise?
2. position her closely so his outer forearm touched/leaned against her body, balancing her that way?
3. position her closely so his arm at her waist to balance her and ---
a. put his arm between her waist and ship interior, his hand curling around to grasp waist?
b. put his arm between her waist and window side, his hand curling around to grasp waist?
How Safe?
How safe would these resting on the railing positions be?
Does anyone think 1 or 2 is reasonably safe?
What about 3a or 3b?
3a. W his arm between her waist and ship interior, can his hand actually curl to grasp waist? IDTS.
3b. Facing window(s) to bang on it/them could be accomplished only by leaning outward toward the window/exterior (unless she had chimpanzee-length arms which I did not notice), so Chloe's body weight would bear down on G'father's tired arm. Yes, one of G'father's tired arms.
Other Factors
And --- as others have noted, a toddler like Chloe wiggles making it hard to keep a tot securely in arms
And --- even if not squirming, w heavy, toddler heads, 18 mo old tots are prone to lose their balance. They tend not to be stable while stationery or walking.
Alternatives for G'father, w or w/out 'Tired Arms'
Let Chloe stand on floor?
Let her lean against G'father's legs or a post supporting the rail?
Sit down in chair, put Chloe on lap or adjacent chair.
Let Chloe sit on floor. (ick)
Call Mom & Dad back.
Deliver Chloe to Mom & Dad.
Or ???

My opinion about this case is really focused on the window child safety issue because of a tragedy I witnessed many years ago. Businesses who attract families as paying customers have a responsibility and a duty to address safety.

The civil case isn't all that complicated. Toddlers don't just bang on windows. They also like to look through windows. I think Chloe was seated on the railing very close to her grandfather with his arm around her waist. The railing would be bearing her weight rather than her grandfather's hand/arm/shoulder/back.

Toddlers don't wiggle a lot when they are fascinated at looking at something but if they are standing on the floor, they will wander away. I believe Grandpa was standing in order to see the family's other children in the water play area and whatever suddenly happened, Grandpa couldn't react in time.

<modsnip - off topic>

There was tabled seating near those cruise line windows. What if an older child decided to stand on a table or chair to get a better view out the window because the railing blocked his view? There should be no open windows accessible to children on a cruise ship just as there should be no live gators lurking in the water next to a children's beach. To me, it is common sense.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

actually this angle is better if you want to compare the H2O Zone and the windows

The Freedom of the Seas is 126.6 feet wide at her widest point, almost as wide as Chloe fell. That splash pad is not that big. There is at least 30 feet, if not more, on either side of the actual play area. That 30 feet is occupied by lounge chairs and tables. There's at least 3 rows of seating visible. The windows are CLEARLY NOT a play area. Just because they are adjacent to a play area does not make them a play area. There is also a bar clearly visible in that shaded seating area.

I'm more inclined to say it's a bar area since the bar is at least under the shading and against the windows whereas the splash pad is in the center of the deck and there is NOTHING to play with in the seating area.

No one has suggested the windowed area is a play area but it is very obviously adjacent to it and within sight. It is a shaded area for adults who don't want to be in the sun but who want to be able to see their children. Do the bars not serve non-alcohol beverages?

JMO