IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand

[IceIce9]

I've never quite understood this story. Honestly I think he had to have known the window was open? As for the hockey glass...that window looks nothing like that in my opinion?

I think it was negligence, but to charge him with manslaughter...I'm not sure how I feel about that either. When they immediately blamed and sued the cruise ship...well that was creepy and weird too.

I'm all over the place with this one. I'm just not totally sure about any of this?

He is only charged with negligent homicide, not manslaughter. BBM

 

[neesaki]

The articles state he’s being held on 80,000.00 bond. I’m wondering if they’re holding him in Puerto Rico, does anyone know how this works. IOW, even though the incident happened in PR could they be holding him here in the state where he lives?

 

[10ofRods]

Thanks. I found an old article with a little time info:

Toddler who died after falling on Royal Caribbean ship is South Bend officer’s daughter

"... The girl reportedly slipped from her grandfather’s arms and fell 150 feet before hitting the concrete below. Medics rushed the girl to the hospital around 4:30 p.m. She died a short time later. ..."

The grandfather's statements, or the attorney's, is that he thought the window was closed. I just wondered if darkness or glare from brightness contributed to the incident. The .au article states that alcohol was not a factor.

I don't know how anyone can know whether alcohol was a factor. SA was not taken to hospital and tested. The family's lawyer says SA is not a drinker and he wasn't drinking. TBF, at least all his infractions seem to just involve recklessness, not drinking.

 

[10ofRods]

The articles state he’s being held on 80,000.00 bond. I’m wondering if they’re holding him in Puerto Rico, does anyone know how this works. IOW, even though the incident happened in PR could they be holding him here in the state where he lives?

Other articles say that a judge issued a warrant, not that he's being held. Yes, they could hold him in his own state. I was looking for some reliable information that he's back in PR but not finding any yet. He could be in jail in his own state, I guess. PR is under our USDoJ.

 

[Dee Deforest]

He is only charged with negligent homicide, not manslaughter. BBM

NBC news says manslaughter but BBC says negligent homicide?

 

[IceIce9]

Other articles say that a judge issued a warrant, not that he's being held. Yes, they could hold him in his own state. I was looking for some reliable information that he's back in PR but not finding any yet. He could be in jail in his own state, I guess. PR is under our USDoJ.

Anello was being held on an $80,000 bond, according to ABC News, but the 51-year-old has since been released. He is scheduled to appear in court on Nov. 20, CNN reported.

 

[10ofRods]

The first article that mentioned what the judge in Puerto Rico said (perhaps a reporter was there) said "negligent homicide." In some states, that's manslaughter. It would be great if NBC would use the terms used by the judge, I think (not surprised they spun it though). I think BBC is probably right on this one.

 

[IceIce9]

NBC news says manslaughter but BBC says negligent homicide?

Fox, ABC, CNN and NBC are all reporting negligent homicide.

In the United States, all states define negligent homicide by statute, often defining the offense as involuntary manslaughter. Negligent homicide may be a lesser included offense to first and second degree murder, meaning that all of the elements of negligent homicide are elements of those more serious charges.

 

[MyBelle]

BBM. That's just not true. To charge a grandfather in the death of his own grandchild after everyone who witnessed the incident saw that he was beside himself with horror and grief is a very serious thing to do. There is no way that he would be charged without solid evidence in a case like this.

The emotional implications are huge.

Let me add though that speeding tickets do not infer a murderous intent. That makes zero sense to me.

This was not intentional, IMO. To suggest that this man knowingly placed his baby granddaughter there and dropped her so his family could sue -not even him- doesn't make sense. It would be too easy for someone to see what he was doing, there's no benefit to him and speeding violations imply he's violent?

No.

But no justice department is going to charge a grieving grandpa who likely continues to suffer greatly, without solid proof that he grossly neglected his duty of care such that a baby died as a result.

I agree with those who feel perhaps the delay was to allow the family to grieve.

Their going to put a sobbing elderly man on the stand who is described as his grandaughter's best friend. Who never put her in harm's way prior to this. That's going to be some tough optics. He may not even decide to stick around for trial.

I don't think they would dare charge in a case like this without clear evidence that he committed a crime due to his actions of placing the baby where he did. I'm betting the video shows he was aware the window was open and kept her there regardless. And then he lost his grip.

I don't know anything about Puerto Rico's justice system but I've never heard of American justice waiting to charge criminals so they have time to grieve. That makes zero sense to me. Kids have been dying in hot cars and when parents are charged, it usually happens soon after, not months later. And often, no charges have been filed because prosecutors decided the death was a result of a tragic mistake and grief from the death is enough punishment.

JMO

 

[sl222]

Not awful, but can’t help but notice all his past tickets for failure to wear a seatbelt

note: the first link is time sensitive. The second is a blank search - enter name.

Indiana Supreme Court public access case search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court public access case search - MyCase

edit: clarifying links

Thanks for those links, they are really surprising. There are a lot of strange and disturbing things about this case. And yes, more than anything else, it is sad, but I feel that the video depicts something a lot worse than what many people are expecting, or else no charges would have been filed. The PR authorities certainly did not rush this process. Since nothing had been reported for so long, I was starting to think it had been quietly settled behind the scenes with a reduced charge and an agreement not to say anything to the media. Obviously that turns out to be not the case.

 

[sl222]

I don't know how anyone can know whether alcohol was a factor. SA was not taken to hospital and tested. The family's lawyer says SA is not a drinker and he wasn't drinking. TBF, at least all his infractions seem to just involve recklessness, not drinking.

IMO, he was drinking. That is one reason for the ferocious attack the family has made on the ship - they want to blame the ship so that no blame can fall on their family. The attorney did not say the step-grandfather was not drinking; he said that "alcohol was not a factor" in what happened. To say someone is "not a drinker" is not the same as saying the person does not ever drink; it's more like saying they are not a drunkard, but it really means nothing - it's just what the attorney put forward for their PR, not as real evidence. Most people drink on these ships. They think they are "safe" because they're not going to be driving a car anywhere, so they can imbibe with less worry. The family had been on board several hours when this occurred. This happened right by one of the ship's bars and a pool area. The careless actions of the step-grandfather to me make more sense if he was under the influence of alcohol. The police said he was "rocking" the girl and she was held out of the window during this "act of games."

Would he have been charged over a clear accident where he was not at fault? I think this was a lot different and that there are multiple factors leading to this charge. The video and the ship's record of any alcohol he had. All this is MOO. I hope the facts of the video come out but not necessarily the video itself. I hope the family will view the video and the evidence to settle in their mind what did happen. Prayers for all of them.

 

[MyBelle]

For real, because those were just the times he got caught.

it’s been 30 years since I was last pulled over, but not the last time since I exceeded the posted limit. But I’m cautious enough to fall in flow, not weaving in and out.

Anyway, I don’t want to see the video but I sure want to hear which narrative it fits.

He was pulled over in Lake and Porter Counties in northern Indiana. I-80 is a toll road across northern Indiana. State patrol constantly pulls people over for speeding, including my DD last year. She had her car's cruise control set but also was alone. Easier to pay the fine than try to fight the ticket.

Equating traffic tickets with homicide is a bit of a stretch.

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

IMO, he was drinking. That is one reason for the ferocious attack the family has made on the ship - they want to blame the ship so that no blame can fall on their family. The attorney did not say the step-grandfather was not drinking; he said that "alcohol was not a factor" in what happened. To say someone is "not a drinker" is not the same as saying the person does not ever drink; it's more like saying they are not a drunkard, but it really means nothing - it's just what the attorney put forward for their PR, not as real evidence. Most people drink on these ships. They think they are "safe" because they're not going to be driving a car anywhere, so they can imbibe with less worry. The family had been on board several hours when this occurred. This happened right by one of the ship's bars and a pool area. The careless actions of the step-grandfather to me make more sense if he was under the influence of alcohol. The police said he was "rocking" the girl and she was held out of the window during this "act of games."

Would he have been charged over a clear accident where he was not at fault? I think this was a lot different and that there are multiple factors leading to this charge. The video and the ship's record of any alcohol he had. All this is MOO. I hope the facts of the video come out but not necessarily the video itself. I hope the family will view the video and the evidence to settle in their mind what did happen. Prayers for all of them.

BBM. Do you have a link for this because I sure don't remember police saying this.

I don't believe it is fair to generalize that the man had been drinking. Not all elderly people drink. If he was holding the baby and standing there, where exactly was his drink?

JMO

 

[Bethan]

He was pulled over in Lake and Porter Counties in northern Indiana. I-80 is a toll road across northern Indiana. State patrol constantly pulls people over for speeding, including my DD last year. She had her car's cruise control set but also was alone. Easier to pay the fine than try to fight the ticket.

Equating traffic tickets with homicide is a bit of a stretch.

JMO

BBM I don’t see anyone here equating traffic tickets with homicide.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

It was daylight. From what I read from people who supposedly did see the video, it sounds like the video is very clear exactly what happened and imo if the parents had seen the video they probably would not have gone on TV. They were given the chance to see it but understandably they didn't want to.

lawyer said they didn’t see video? Ok parents don’t want to view it. Lawyer not seeing it? Go look at it before slamming cruise line.

 

[Medstudies]

He was pulled over in Lake and Porter Counties in northern Indiana. I-80 is a toll road across northern Indiana. State patrol constantly pulls people over for speeding, including my DD last year. She had her car's cruise control set but also was alone. Easier to pay the fine than try to fight the ticket.

Equating traffic tickets with homicide is a bit of a stretch.

JMO

Who equated one thing to another besides you right here? I just posted his public records.

Besides: Past behavior is indeed a pretty solid predictor of future behavior.

He has shown disregard for safety rules and laws. He is on record for past reckless behavior.

Let me be clear as a bell for you: I did not even remotely insinuate his tickets were equal to homicide and it’s bewildering that you would jump to that conclusion. Just. Wow. SMDH

 

[IceIce9]

He was pulled over in Lake and Porter Counties in northern Indiana. I-80 is a toll road across northern Indiana. State patrol constantly pulls people over for speeding, including my DD last year. She had her car's cruise control set but also was alone. Easier to pay the fine than try to fight the ticket.

Equating traffic tickets with homicide is a bit of a stretch.

JMO

IMO he didn’t set intend to kill his granddaughter. That would have been murder.

He was careless with the care of the child under his supervision. A duty of care was owed and a duty was breached, resulting in the charge of negligent homicide.

The traffic tickets indicate he was reckless but no one is equating the tickets to murder.

 

[MyBelle]

BBM I don’t see anyone here equating traffic tickets with homicide.

I think the reference was to every thread is about depraved people. I don't believe this grandfather is depraved or even close to it.

JMO

 

[IceIce9]

BBM. Do you have a link for this because I sure don't remember police saying this.

I don't believe it is fair to generalize that the man had been drinking. Not all elderly people drink. If he was holding the baby and standing there, where exactly was his drink?

JMO

The family’s lawyer didn’t state he had not been drinking. He stated, “Alcohol was not a factor” which doesn’t mean he hadn’t been drinking.

The fact that he wasn’t holding a drink in his hand at the time he dropped the baby doesn’t mean he hadn’t been drinking before, since they had been on the ship for several hours. MOO

 

[MyBelle]

IMO he didn’t set intend to kill his granddaughter. That would have been murder.

He was careless with the care of the child under his supervision. A duty of care was owed and a duty was breached, resulting in the charge of negligent homicide.

The traffic tickets indicate he was reckless but no one is equating the tickets to murder.

The grandfather IS charged with negligent homicide which is murder, isn't it?