IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #10

[rlc]

Yes, this makes sense. Thanks. I understand your position better. I agree that affluent people have better exposure to resources. I guess it boils down to how they want to use them, huh? I feel sad for innocent people who have no means to defend themselves too.

While it's the ethical thing to come forward, I guess I can see how some of these kids don't want to be involved. They probably think that their one little piece of info is insignificant (when it could be what breaks the case, honestly). So, they keep quiet. Think about the kid who found the keys. I understand that he has dark skin so some suspect him since this was the witness description of one seen with LS. That's understandable. But really, what if he has NO bearing on the case whatsoever? He did the right thing to come forward and say that he found the keys. Let's assume that's ALL of his involvement with this case.....the poor kid is being discussed on message boards and is now a POI. I know that people keep wanting to say they're "not kids" but age has nothing to do with this. These are not adults who've experienced the real world. The adult brain doesn't develop until in the 20's and the male's is like at 25. It would be tough for them to handle these accusations if they are innocent. I personally still find the key "finding" to be strange, so I'm guilty of a part of that myself. I'm just saying that it's kind of no wonder no one wants to talk......

I agree with you. When I put myself in the parents' shoes, as a parent myself, it breaks my heart that nobody will talk. But when I think about my own college years, which were innocent compared to the picture coming out now of LS's friends and acquaintances, I am not sure what I would have done in the same situation. For my close friends, I would have been desperate to find her and would have revealed anything. For an acquaintance (especially one I may not have liked that much), whose life I thought could not be saved anyway, but whose death could destroy the future of someone close to me who did not intentionally cause it...it would have been much harder to make that call. Especially in the current age of news being plastered all over the Internet. I do hope I would have, and these kids will, ultimately do the right thing, though. It's probably not an easy choice to make for them, but especially in a case of accidental death, they would probably not only be doing the right thing, but be doing a favor to all of the friends they are trying to protect. I can't imagine any of them living with this for the rest of their lives without some sense of guilt or dread that their secrets will be discovered.

 

[AnalyticalExaminer]

That description of DR may be incorrect. Or they know something we don't. Early Friday is really late Thursday night. They partied Thursday into the wee hours of Friday morning.

There are (literally dozens of) cameras throughout Smallwood, including at its entrance. LE have access to key card entry data at Smallwood. LE have been given access to DR's phone, apartment, and any car. There is no report that LE have requested a polygraph or DNA sample from LE. LE have not stood in the way of DR's participation in volunteer searches, which he has discussed on camera displaying what might be characterized as an open demeanor. I have little doubt that DR is in the clear.

 

[bunnyesq.]

Thanks. I understand this. However, I assume you mean "Probably cause to commit murder (or something related)". In order to have a "reasonable belief", LE would presumably need evidence to make it "reasonable". I don't think having a bunch of kids say that the POIs were "partiers" is going to provide "reasonable belief" that they gave drugs to LS. They're going to need more.

LE just needs probable cause to believe that a crime was committed. Hearsay, or a bunch of kids saying that the kids partied/may have given drugs to LS is enough.

 

[elmomom]

If (and I really emphasize the IF)
If JR was the sole person who knows where the body of LS is, and will not voluntarily disclose the location of the body, then I am inclined to believe that it was way more serious than an drug overdose or heart problem.
If he is guilty I do think putting together a charge against him will be successful at some point, and if it were accidental he and his lawyer would better be served having the body in evidence. If there were some sort of foul play, or evidence of a sexual encounter, that would be motive to prevent the body from being found.
So, since I think there could be a much more serious crime here other than a cover-up I need a lot more evidence to convict JR in my mind.

 

[bunnyesq.]

Gabby66 - you are definitely right on about high-powered attorneys being able to get them off (if LE did arrest them at this point). What would probably happen is that LE arrests one of them, they sit in jail for a short amount of time, if they are questioned it is done in the presence of their attorney, who advises them not to answer most of the relevant questions, and then they're out. The police wouldn't be able to hold them.

 

[Jupiter812]

Respectfully, Snipped

CONCLUSIONS

Higher adolescent SES [socioeconomic status], as measured by parental education and household income in adolescence, is associated with higher rates of binge drinking, marijuana and cocaine use in early adulthood.

This study offers evidence that wealthier students may be at risk for substance use problems in the future, particularly for binge drinking, marijuana and cocaine use. As previous evidence shows that students with more spending money might be more likely to engage in substance use into adulthood, access to allowances and other forms of spending money may be issues that parents can address if they are concerned with the possibility of substance abuse among their children.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2924306/

I will add my own observation and experience of working with and among college students is those who hold part-time jobs while studying have less free time to engage in drugs and alcohol. They have no free time to volunteer either. They are stretched, their parents are stretched. They sometimes have to leave mid-year due to economics. This is happening more and more.

 

[Gabby66]

For me, there is an insight here. I am realizing that my own adolescents withheld a great deal of information from me, not criminal, of course, but information in which I might have given them support or, even, actually have praised them and been proud.

Yes, kids begin to experiment more during the teen/young adult years and we ALL did it...even those of us who are very moral and ethical (even back then). It's a normal, typical thing of this age group and I think that anyone who says he/she never did a wrong thing is lying. How can any of us ever look in the mirror and say that during that age-span, we never walked home alone as a girl, when we probably shouldn't have, tried a cigarette or alcohol, or even some harder-core drug, had unprotected unmarital sex, stole a pack of gum or Playboy from the corner store, lied to our parents, snuck out of the house, etc. etc. While I consider myself to have been a very good kid (and am now one of the most moral people I know), I admit to a few of these, and probably others. I would have DIED if my parents found out. I used to work with pregnant teenagers......do you know what was the HIGHEST most common reason for abortions? NOT WANTING THEIR PARENTS TO LEARN THAT THEY'D HAD SEX. This spanned across ALL socio-economic groups. Many young girls felt horrible that they'd made a bad decision and wanted to just sweep it away. Those who had good family relationships (and probably would have had the best support) were often the ones who couldn't face their family with what they had done. They will likely live the rest of their lives without telling anyone. Kids, Teens, and You Adults are impulsive. I think we can agree to that (those of us who have gone through those years who are now adults). It's a fact of development - not picking on them. It's natural. So I can totally understand how if they were faced with something so overwhelming (like someone ODing and dying in their room), their impulsive gut-reaction might be to get rid of the problem (just like the pregnant teen). Some problems are just FAR too overwhelming at that age and they think the best way is to purge it from their life. The reality is, that since many of them can't think past the end of their nose into their future, they have no clue about how difficult it will be to deal with as time goes on.....

 

[Gabby66]

In theory, I agree with you. IME, the further a person climbs up the socioeconomic ladder, the more they seem to work to stay there. In my last neighborhood, when people hit financial hard times, they admitted it. Where I am now, people will max out their credit cards to maintain the image. I think most people in high-paying jobs are aware of how easy it is to fall and never recover completely. Whereas a lot of lower income jobs, you could face complete scandal, but pick up at the same income level in another area. Any business owner, I think, is going to have a lot to lose when his image is tarnished. And in that sense, the butcher and the CEO may both want to protect their image, but the CEO is still going to have more resources to do so. (FWIW, I don't necessarily think middle class is going to be any different than the lower incomes, but I do think there is a difference in the desperation of the upper income levels vs the lower income levels in maintaining image/lifestyle).

OK I understand where you're coming from. I think you may be right in some cases about the desperation and maxing out credit cards, etc. in order to maintain lifestyle/imagine.....But for that assumption to mean that people of higher incomes would try to cover up a crime to protect their image, would mean that these people are also unethical. Maxing out a credit card is one thing, but I don't think income equates to ethics. I think many may think that, but it's wrong. Having lived in many areas of the country, I can say that ethics vary widely in all groups. This is another assumption turned into a stereotype that many hold. I get it, but I don't buy it. A person may need a high powered attorney to help him be found innocent. But he doesn't necessarily need him to help cover up a crime. That little girl in Florida I believe (Haleigh) is a fine example of that. Those kids didn't really have two rocks to rub together. They still managed to cover up a crime and do lots of drugs.

 

[LongTallTexan]

Obviouly they have much more data/info, but LE seem to be 'accepting' what they have so far and do not have any concrete info to:
1) find Lauren
2) ID who's responsible
or 3).....just make a simple arrest based on the information they have.

Truly, this is sad, because I just don't think anyone cares about the PsOI at this point where finding Lauren hopefully alive is the priority....this leads me to the idea that I think LE believes or has corroborating evidence that most of the POI stories are accurate. For example, LE has included the call to DR and the 4:30 last-sighting in the timeline and they seems to accept that.

I think they have a much better idea of the evening's activities and motives, but none of them are substantial enough to create a suspect or arrest....so the fact that such an 'active' evening for LS, the 'activity' may not have been the precursor to her disappearance...
I find it hard to believe, but there's really something more (and significant) that happened that night that might not be in conflict with the current POI stories.

 

[rlc]

Gabby, I think you are right, and the fear of the parents finding out, or the friends back home finding out, either about the lifestyle in general or the events of that night, could be a huge obstacle to getting those kids to share information. I can imagine that fear. If only those kids could realize that chances are, their parents had their own secrets and their own experimentation, that they probably won't be as shocked as they think they would be, because it's part of parenting to realize what your kids' peers are doing and wonder if your kid is doing it too, and, most importantly, that their parents will still love them and try to help them in whatever way they can. It's sad to think that some of them will probably carry this information, and the accompanying guilt/shame/fear, for the rest of their lives because they are afraid of what their parents or someone else may think. Especially when, at this point, all of those people have already considered the possibility that their son/daughter/friend is involved in this, and the truth is probably not as bad as what they may be wondering. So by keeping it a secret, they have to live the rest of their life under a cloud of suspicion, but with guilt and shame and fear. If they told what they know, they may have to live with a little gossip, but the support for/satisfaction of doing the right thing would probably outweigh it.

 

[Gabby66]

LE just needs probable cause to believe that a crime was committed. Hearsay, or a bunch of kids saying that the kids partied/may have given drugs to LS is enough.

Thank you. This is kinda scary to me. I know that many of us speculate that JR may be guilty, having been the last one to supposedly see her, as well as the drug rumors.....but for that to be enough for a probably cause arrest, is SCARY. To me, that's like saying that if my house is broken into, and food stolen from my freezer, my hypothetical neighbor could be arrested on probably cause because she has a key to my house and her husband lost his job so they need to feed their family. Think of how many times kids do impulsive things, share drugs, alcohol, etc. That happens daily on every campus. They don't know where each other go after the party. I'm not saying that I buy JR's story, because I don't. But to be able to arrest someone just based on heresay, seems really scary to me.

 

[elmomom]

Obviouly they have much more data/info, but LE seem to be 'accepting' what they have so far and do not have any concrete info to:
1) find Lauren
2) ID who's responsible
or 3).....just make a simple arrest based on the information they have.

Truly, this is sad, because I just don't think anyone cares about the PsOI at this point where finding Lauren hopefully alive is the priority....this leads me to the idea that I think LE believes or has corroborating evidence that most of the POI stories are accurate. For example, LE has included the call to DR and the 4:30 last-sighting in the timeline and they seems to accept that.

I think they have a much better idea of the evening's activities and motives, but none of them are substantial enough to create a suspect or arrest....so the fact that such an 'active' evening for LS, the 'activity' may not have been the precursor to her disappearance...
I find it hard to believe, but there's really something more (and significant) that happened that night that might not be in conflict with the current POI stories.

So, do you think that she had an encounter with a stranger, or a person who has not been identified by LE, after she left at 4:30?

 

[GoodAim]

I mean this question very respectfully.....

Can someone please explain why it matters how much money any of these POI's have? The only thing I can think of, is perhaps it explains why/how he can afford such a high-powered attorney. But even at that, these listings are $500 K homes. Homes in my area are 1/2 the size and priced higher. I know that very few of my neighbors who could afford an attorney of this caliber. Property value doesn't mean much IMO to show a person's wealth. I guess it's all relative. I'm just wondering though, if there is reason to be curious about their incomes - something that I may be missing. Are you assuming that because the family may have $, he may be better suited to buy drugs? If so, I'm not sure that's a consideration. The kids pushing drugs in many communities, come from FAR FAR FAR less than what JR may have had growing up. As an aside, I wouldn't begrudge anyone from getting the best attorney that they can afford (or even one they can't afford). If I were in his parents' shoes, I'd be forking out ALL that I could to help my son - remember that we're presumed innocent until proven otherwise. This is their son. Unless he has come forward with a confession to them, they are probably assuming he's innocent and wanting to help in any way they can.

I posted that only because others here were trying to get a sense of where the family lived.

I wanted to help since I had seen it before.

I don't care about money. It's often irrelevant unless it's the motive for a crime, or if a problem with it is the cause for crime.

I do, however, enjoy looking at houses and neighborhoods to imagine if they would be places I would want to live.

 

[bunnyesq.]

Thank you. This is kinda scary to me. I know that many of us speculate that JR may be guilty, having been the last one to supposedly see her, as well as the drug rumors.....but for that to be enough for a probably cause arrest, is SCARY. To me, that's like saying that if my house is broken into, and food stolen from my freezer, my hypothetical neighbor could be arrested on probably cause because she has a key to my house and her husband lost his job so they need to feed their family. Think of how many times kids do impulsive things, share drugs, alcohol, etc. That happens daily on every campus. They don't know where each other go after the party. I'm not saying that I buy JR's story, because I don't. But to be able to arrest someone just based on heresay, seems really scary to me.

I think that the hypothetical you posed in an interesting one, but yeah, I think that LE could arrest your neighbor in that case, especially if all the other neighbors were saying that this is something they did regularly. There's motive and opportunity.

 

[Jupiter812]

Am still catching up but just wanted to post gitan1's reply to my asking about getting search warrants where JR is concerned..(she is a verified lawyer)



So my question is with him in Michigan how are things such as car search warrant being executed?

If they're not then it's likely Jay's not our guy.. Why else would LE not be immediately searching these items..

It would take me a while to find the source, perhaps in one of the PC transcripts posted by AnalyticalExaminer above...but within the first week the Captain said POIs allowed search of the apartments and cars.

 

[rlc]

I asked this before at the tail end of a post on another topic, so just in case it got lost there--does anyone know if DR is related to the DR who is a former reporter turned adjunct professor at IUPUI?

 

[AnalyticalExaminer]

It would take me a while to find the source, perhaps in one of the PC transcripts posted by AnalyticalExaminer above...but within the first week the Captain said POIs allowed search of the apartments and cars.

The source is Qualters' preliminary statement at the 6/7 press conference. And he did not say POIs specifically but rather everyone believed at the time to have seen LS on or after the afternoon of 6/2, which includes most if not all POIs (but not, necessarily, JW or those who provide his alibi, or neighbors of JR's who did not see LS) and certainly includes JR.

 

[cluciano63]

I asked this before at the tail end of a post on another topic, so just in case it got lost there--does anyone know if DR is related to the DR who is a former reporter turned adjunct professor at IUPUI?

There is a DR with Gotham Sports Agency in NYC, which seems more likely, since DR shows a high interest in basketball...JMO

 

[LongTallTexan]

So, do you think that she had an encounter with a stranger, or a person who has not been identified by LE, after she left at 4:30?

I just don't know....and I guess it really doesn't matter to me, whoever it is needs to come forward or be caught...

I'm really trying to not spend so much time speculating/debating and trying to just follow the facts. It seems to me that LE is 'buying into' what JR (4:30 sighting) and other POIs have offered up so far, but it's not getting LE anywhere.

However, I do believe that someone has more information as to what 'probably' happened if not most of what happened. I don't think LE know who's responsible, or they'd have them.

I do think that many out there know information that would support what could have happened, i.e. LS party trends, relationships between the POIs and with Lauren, both past and most recent, calls, texts, motives, things said that night, alcohol/drugs if and when, etc.....several people most likely know and may have offered up this type of information that fills in the gaps of the story that we have to speculate about...but it appearently isn't enough to find Lauren.

I don't know......

 

[elmomom]

I asked this before at the tail end of a post on another topic, so just in case it got lost there--does anyone know if DR is related to the DR who is a former reporter turned adjunct professor at IUPUI?

I cannot answer that question. I do know that DR does not live in Indiana but in NY. FWIW.