IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #12

[Blythe]

From Salem:



I'm not sure that's in response to this particular issue. If it is, great.

Also important, that all blog info should be considered rumor unless it is verified as fact. Falling under this aegis would be the comments that continue to definitively state that a poster is someone's brother when that has not been verified.

FWIW, My curiosity got the best of me for going into the site; I have felt slimy ever since. The AW ranting about his brother's mental state was one thing but the site is so raunchy and debasing to women. Irrelevant, I know, but for those who think they missed anything worthy of WS - don't. Some disturbing rants from a 26 year old, however, and no concern from him concerning Lauren or even calling her by name.

 

[kissdegirl]

Original post and pic, in front of JR apt looking east to corner of 11th/College, by Long-time Local:

Thanks for that pic, I was looking for it in the pics thread and didn't see it.

It's a fair assumption to say JR couldn't have seen LS all the way down at that corner in the dark, I just don't buy it. Not sure why he would say it if it were not true, just not buying that he saw her there from his apt. IMO, MOO, FWIW, :twocents:

 

[shockedandappalled]

Original post and pic, in front of JR apt looking east to corner of 11th/College, by Long-time Local:

It is taken from street level and you do not know where he was standing.

You also do not know if the moon was the same the night she went missing as now.

Lots of we don't know.

I also read today that it is possible that he said he walked her part way.

I have not seen an official statement released of his story so everything being discussed is just assumptions and not facts.

Again until LE releases a statement we do not know and cannot know if he could see her or was lying.

To make any statements that he definitely could NOT see her or he WAS lying is wrong, inaccurate, or sorry but a lie.

 

[elmomom]

If you're talking about the picture of the blue and yellow frame houses under construction, that is not taken from JR's doorway.

And I didn't say it was. After the first picture I was having trouble figuring out the "one way sign". Here they are long and narrow, not square. This picture helped me recognize the one way sign in the first picture. Also, fo scale, the car on the left (I think it's grey).
Light blonde hair and a white shirt, stand out by the doorway, and he's 6'+ tall FWIRC. So, despite everyone else's conclusions, I still was able to conclude that it was possible. Sorry to be the odd man out here, but that's what I believe.

 

[mamamia54]

Highwire - I didn't sign up on that site because I would rather not be influenced. I would much rather take things as they come. In saying that, I read what you've written here just now, and I can understand where you are coming from. We all do care very much about this case and the people involved. You just take care of yourself and your family.

 

[Long-time Local]

Forgive me if I'm beating a dead horse, but I've seen so many posts about JR's windows. Wouldn't the most likely scenario -- if indeed he did watch her walk off -- be that he merely stepped out his own front door as she left, and possibly took a few steps forward to watch her walk away, rather than leaning out of some window? This is what I would do if I were watching someone walk away.

I don't personally think his account is reliable either way, but I don't understand all the talk about windows...

Because at some early point, MSM stated that JR claimed to have watched her walk away from his window. The link is likely buried in one of the first 5 or 6 threads on this topic.

Having stood outside his door at night barely able to see to the corner in the dark I don't think he watched her at all, and like I've mentioned before, he stood there while she walked and walked and walked through all the glass and debris on the sidewalk to get the corner and then she just vanishes? No. I don't buy it. So let's say he didn't watch her. And let's say he didn't have anything to do with her disappearance and he just didn't want to look like an uncaring friend by admitting he didn't watch her. Which way did she walk them? His apartment is right on the corner of 11th and Morton (a block west of College). Did she go down Morton (it's certainly closer than College)? Did she go around the side of his apartment next to the dumpster and through the parking area trying to get back to the alley by 10th and College? Did she head east on 11th and turn down the alley instead of going all the way up to College? Is this when she lost her purse and keys? If he's lying about watching her walk away (and I think he is, but not necessarily for the "popular" reason) there are quite a few possible scenarios that open up.

Regarding the hairdresser's roommate: there is nothing I can find in that story that suggests the hairdresser's roommate also walked in front of 5 North. The point of bringing her into the story at all was to illustrate that people were coming home in the wee hours. For all we know, she had driven home from the other side of town.

 

[northsider]

It is taken from street level and you do not know where he was standing.

You also do not know if the moon was the same the night she went missing as now.

Lots of we don't know.

I also read today that it is possible that he said he walked her part way.

I have not seen an official statement released of his story so everything being discussed is just assumptions and not facts.

Again until LE releases a statement we do not know and cannot know if he could see her or was lying.

To make any statements that he definitely could NOT see her or he WAS lying is wrong, inaccurate, or sorry but a lie.

June 2/3 was the new moon. There was practically no moonlight that night.

With all due respect, you yourself in your defense of JR are relying on assumptions --- the uncorroborated account that JR provided through his attorney, which LE went out of their way to indicate was not supported by any additional evidence. It's hardly "wrong, inaccurate or...a lie" to analyze the potential truth or falsehood of those statements in the absence of any further corroboration.

 

[kimmypie1]

It is taken from street level and you do not know where he was standing.

You also do not know if the moon was the same the night she went missing as now.

Lots of we don't know.

I also read today that it is possible that he said he walked her part way.

I have not seen an official statement released of his story so everything being discussed is just assumptions and not facts.

Again until LE releases a statement we do not know and cannot know if he could see her or was lying.

To make any statements that he definitely could NOT see her or he WAS lying is wrong, inaccurate, or sorry but a lie.

With all due respect...I understand that your daughter is friends with JR and I can totally see how you can't fathom that your daughter could be friends with somoene who there is a slight possibilty could have had a hand in LS's death/dissapearance. I am a mom, I get it. However, it is evident to me that this has caused your perception to be a bit skewed or your glasses to be a bit rosy if you will, when it comes to discussion on JR. And I can see why you would be defensive of him.

I respectfully ask that you try to see the other side, that no one here is trying to villify him just for fun or to be malignant. We are all just throwing out our opinions and theories and trying to get to the bottom of this sad sad story.

Now having said that, off my box I go...

We have all heard how messed up LS supposedly was. All of these supposed comments on how out of it she was. Has anyone heard any comment from MB on LS's state when she was there? I would be interested to hear what she was like at that point in the night, that would maybe shed some light on what her mindset was when she left there and allegedley left JR's.

 

[shockedandappalled]

June 2/3 was the new moon. There was practically no moonlight that night.

With all due respect, you yourself in your defense of JR are relying on assumptions --- the uncorroborated account that JR provided through his attorney, which LE went out of their way to indicate was not supported by any additional evidence. It's hardly "wrong, inaccurate or...a lie" to analyze the potential truth or falsehood of those statements in the absence of any further corroboration.

1. I am NOT defending anyone. I am stating that LE has NOT said whether he is lying or not ergo NONE of us can make that statement.

2. I NEVER said the moon was full or not. I said we do NOT know. Now assuming you are correct then the moon would NOT have given any more light. Does not change my answer that LE has NOT said he is lying and ergo we CANNOT say he WAS lying.

3. I NEVER said it was wrong, a lie or inaccurate to ANALYZE whether anyone THINKS he could or could not see her what I DID say is that LE has NOT said he was lying and therefore it is wrong, inaccurate or a lie for any of US to say he WAS lying or he could not DEFINITELY see her.

 

[Jupiter812]

It's a fair assumption to say JR couldn't have seen LS all the way down at that corner in the dark, I just don't buy it. Not sure why he would say it if it were not true, just not buying that he saw her there from his apt. IMO, MOO, FWIW, :twocents:

Add to that the effects on the eyesight by intake of alcohol and drugs.

 

[northsider]

Because at some early point, MSM stated that JR claimed to have watched her walk away from his window. The link is likely buried in one of the first 5 or 6 threads on this topic.

Having stood outside his door at night barely able to see to the corner in the dark I don't think he watched her at all, and like I've mentioned before, he stood there while she walked and walked and walked through all the glass and debris on the sidewalk to get the corner and then she just vanishes? No. I don't buy it. So let's say he didn't watch her. And let's say he didn't have anything to do with her disappearance and he just didn't want to look like an uncaring friend by admitting he didn't watch her. Which way did she walk them? His apartment is right on the corner of 11th and Morton (a block west of College). Did she go down Morton (it's certainly closer than College)? Did she go around the side of his apartment next to the dumpster and through the parking area trying to get back to the alley by 10th and College? Did she head east on 11th and turn down the alley instead of going all the way up to College? Is this when she lost her purse and keys? If he's lying about watching her walk away (and I think he is, but not necessarily for the "popular" reason) there are quite a few possible scenarios that open up.

Regarding the hairdresser's roommate: there is nothing I can find in that story that suggests the hairdresser's roommate also walked in front of 5 North. The point of bringing her into the story at all was to illustrate that people were coming home in the wee hours. For all we know, she had driven home from the other side of town.

You bring up two points that are worth discussing. First, if LS and CR came up the alley to 5 North, they would've had to go around the west side of the building (Morton St) and then walk up 11th street to CR's apartment. Then she would've left that apartment, walked back down 11th towards Morton, and gone into JR's apartment. I hadn't thought of this until you mentioned it, but you're right...why would she go all the way up the hill to 11th to College if she had a shorter (and downhill) route that she'd just travelled down Morton through the alley? Very interesting.

Regarding the hairdressers' accounts --- I don't think I buy what they're saying, simply because there's no reason for someone coming from from the bars to walk all the way up to 11th street unless they live there. All the parking spots on Morton are between 7th and 10th streets. There are no houses west of Morton and north of 11th. Even if they were at a house party --- there aren't any house parties north of 10th on Walnut (until you get back down the hill to 13th-14th). I suppose they could've been at the apartments at 11th and Walnut, but those really aren't party apartments, so it's doubtful.

 

[kissdegirl]

June 2/3 was the new moon. There was practically no moonlight that night.

With all due respect, you yourself in your defense of JR are relying on assumptions --- the uncorroborated account that JR provided through his attorney, which LE went out of their way to indicate was not supported by any additional evidence. It's hardly "wrong, inaccurate or...a lie" to analyze the potential truth or falsehood of those statements in the absence of any further corroboration.

We talked all about the lighting at length with the locals who know the area, and have seen it after dark. I was starting to think I imagined all those pages and pages of discussions we had about this. Thanks for reminding me, we did talk about the new moon too.

 

[Long-time Local]

It is taken from street level and you do not know where he was standing.

You also do not know if the moon was the same the night she went missing as now.

Lots of we don't know.

I also read today that it is possible that he said he walked her part way.

I have not seen an official statement released of his story so everything being discussed is just assumptions and not facts.

Again until LE releases a statement we do not know and cannot know if he could see her or was lying.

To make any statements that he definitely could NOT see her or he WAS lying is wrong, inaccurate, or sorry but a lie.

I took the picture from the middle of the sidewalk outside JR's door (which I didn't realize at the time) to illustrate what the corner looked like in the dark. I then stated my opinion. You don't have to agree with it. I certainly hope I am misunderstanding that you are saying I am lying for expressing my opinion and submitting a photograph that I purposely did not alter to reflect how much darker it was than the photo for illustrative purposes.

And actually, we had a very similar moon phase on the night I took that picture (though waning rather than waxing) to June 3rd, although moonlight was not a visibility factor due to all the glare from street lighting and lighting on 5 North.

 

[kissdegirl]

Add to that the effects on the eyesight by intake of alcohol and drugs.

And the naked eye doesn't have "flash" like a camera!

 

[dodie20]

And another thing that irritates me to no end is the people saying 'he shouldn't have lawyered up, it indicates to me he's guilty.'

I don't mean to offend anyone, but such a statement is ignorant.

IF what JR's lawyer says is true about cooperation (and we know it might or might not be fully true), then JR and his family is handling the situation perfectly if he is truly innocent.

He should communicate everything he knows about that night and there's no reason this can't be communicated without the presence of counsel.

Have you ever had the police try to fish for a confession from your innocent a$$? It is one truly uncomfortable experience and may be counter-productive for everyone involved. Once it is suggested that you're guilty... how is that not scary? How are you going to be as clear as you'd want to be? Remember, memory is reconstructive in nature and easily influenced.

If you are innocent, having a lawyer is going to make it easier for you to communicate your story, and do so more accurately, because your anxiety level will be reduced. Hey, innocent people do get arrested sometimes. Furthermore, it keeps you from doing stupid stuff like agreeing to a polygraph. Polygraphs are always a bad idea... if you are scared you're being accused, don't expect the results to be any better than random.

Importantly, it also keeps the police from lying to you. They can and will say they have evidence directly linking you to a crime, even if they don't. Remember that polygraph? The police can unhook you and then say "you lied, would you like to confess now?" even if you didn't. This is where people are tempted to falsely confess or make up unnecessary lies about the issue in question. And that is counterproductive to the investigation.

I don't want to sound like I'm putting LE's tactics on blast - it is a hard job and most investigators really know their stuff - but this is what happens to 'innocent' people.

TL;DR:
1) If you think you may be accused (as would be reasonable of all POI here), get a lawyer if you can.
2) Having said lawyer doesn't interfere with your ability to say everything you know. There is nothing the police would necessarily gain by seriously questioning you without one.
3) Not only does it protect you, but
4) It can also aid LE by allowing you to be clear and consistent.

I agree with everything you said. What most people don't take into consideration, is that cops can and do legally lie. In a situation where someone has been named a POI, he'd be at a clear disadvantage by not hiring an attorney. I can say this with certainty...talking without a lawyer present, doesn't do the talker any favors. Once he has been labeled a POI, IMO, he doesn't owe LE much of anything ouside of legal obligations. Sorry, but if cops called me a POI, I'd be angry and scared and not volunteer a thing. IDK what LE expects out of these people, but them calling out 10 POIs, put them on the defensive. That label forced them to focus on themselves instead of LS. That's just the way it is. Now, LE might not have meant anything more than 'persons they were interested in talking to', but they can't really expect them to take the label lightly. So, this is why IMO, there seems to be so little cooperation. It's not fair to be suspicious of someone for looking out for himself and following expert legal advice. MOO.

 

[Blythe]

1. I am NOT defending anyone. I am stating that LE has NOT said whether he is lying or not ergo NONE of us can make that statement.

2. I NEVER said the moon was full or not. I said we do NOT know. Now assuming you are correct then the moon would NOT have given any more light. Does not change my answer that LE has NOT said he is lying and ergo we CANNOT say he WAS lying.

3. I NEVER said it was wrong, a lie or inaccurate to ANALYZE whether anyone THINKS he could or could not see her what I DID say is that LE has NOT said he was lying and therefore it is wrong, inaccurate or a lie for any of US to say he WAS lying or he could not DEFINITELY see her.

You have a dog in this fight while most of us on this board do not. Personally, your continued efforts to keep this board open minded is useful and welcome. If this were the university of one of mine, I know I would be biased and have an agenda. I think you belong here, but you might, if you haven't already, join or even start a IU parents' forum on the subject. - Just thinking...

 

[AnalyticalExaminer]

Like it (the polygraph taken by JR) or not, his is the only attorney claiming anything about his client having taken one and passing. Now, why aren't the others doing so?

Because their polygraphs were administered by LE, who isn't going to say who passes, while JR's apparently was conducted in private by someone hired by his defense team. We don't know what they asked him or whether it was what LE would have asked him or covers everything they would want to know. We also don't know what they would have done if JR had failed.

As I've said since the beginning, I have yet to see any evidence that he has cooperated in terms of providing direct answers to LE's questions since at least June 7th, if not several days earlier (or at all?). The new article indicates that JR has provided statements to the police, but says nothing to indicate that he has responded in person to their questioning. This may be simple good lawyering on the part of his team, but it is qualitatively different from the cooperation of other POIs, and he appears clearly to be the individual targeted by the family.

 

[elmomom]

And the naked eye doesn't have "flash" like a camera!

... actually, since the light from a flash cannot travel nearly as far as the corner of College and 11th from Morton and 11th, the flash works totally against you here. What the flash does is artificially brighten up the near objects and make the further areas seem even darker in contrast. So no help to the argument.

 

[Truthful Lies]

OT - I am so glad to see all of the new (and seasoned) members here discussing Lauren's case - I just want to send a wish of peace out to everyone on the board....these cases can really get people's emotions going, to say the least.

Just remember we're all here for Lauren...let's always give each other the benefit of the doubt in interpreting online text and do so with a little love.
:blowkiss::grouphug:

 

[shockedandappalled]

Because their polygraphs were administered by LE, who isn't going to say who passes, while JR's apparently was conducted in private by someone hired by his defense team. We don't know what they asked him or whether it was what LE would have asked him or covers everything they would want to know. We also don't know what they would have done if JR had failed.

As I've said since the beginning, I have yet to see any evidence that he has cooperated in terms of providing direct answers to LE's questions since at least June 7th, if not several days earlier (or at all?). The new article indicates that JR has provided statements to the police, but says nothing to indicate that he has responded in person to their questioning. This may be simple good lawyering on the part of his team, but it is qualitatively different from the cooperation of other POIs, and he appears clearly to be the individual targeted by the family.

Interesting and what about the friend that was staying with him? What was he doing? What did he see?

Possibly LE is not releasing his identity after seeing what the public is doing to the other POI.