IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #13

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elmomom said:
But what if the POI really has no more information and the lynch mob swirling around him already has him convicted? Then what does the lawyer advise?

In the first scenario (he has info), the lawyer cannot tell him to come forward unless he volunteers that he knows something. Attys will usually not ask their client if they are in fact guilty. They should advise him that the outcome will be better if he goes the route of accidental death and cover-up if he volunteers the info to LE. Maybe. But if the atty KNOWS he has info because client told him, then it is his duty to use that info in a way best for his client (i.e. strike a deal with LE).
If the atty doesn't know his client has info, and cannot get client to volunteer that he does, my guess is he does what this atty is doing. Keep the client safe (quiet) and stay abreast of the new details. And wait and see.
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This is where the hope stays alive. LE knows this and must have its counter strategy. It is a waiting game. And sometimes truth wins out.
 
Blythe said:
This is where the hope stays alive. LE knows this and must have its counter strategy. It is a waiting game. And sometimes truth wins out.
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Again, but what if he really has no more info? What if LS walked off, and met up with someone she knows just around the corner and ended up being pulled into another little get together and OD'ed there. Putting pressure on and playing chess with this POI wouldn't amount to anything then.
 
phantomthought said:
That is one of the reasons you hire a lawyer.He negotiates with the police to have an independent examiner that they both can agree on administer the test.
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They aren't even accurate anyway, so doing this is purely a PR thing.

As far as I know, from posters on WS, the police only use them to corner suspects and get confessions.

From this POV, JR and his attorney are only doing it so if the passes, he can say "I passed", and if he fails, he can keep taking it until he passes, or simply not have ever admitted to taking one.
 
elmomom said:
Again, but what if he really has no more info? What if LS walked off, and met up with someone she knows just around the corner and ended up being pulled into another little get together and OD'ed there. Putting pressure on and playing chess with this POI wouldn't amount to anything then.
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All very true but LE does have more information than we do. I am hoping it is significant.
 
elmomom said:
Again, but what if he really has no more info? What if LS walked off, and met up with someone she knows just around the corner and ended up being pulled into another little get together and OD'ed there. Putting pressure on and playing chess with this POI wouldn't amount to anything then.
Click to expand...

Right, so at what point do you have your client make a statement declaring his innocence? If he's innocent, why endure the torches and pitchforks? He may not be cleared, but if he truly has no information why wouldn't he say that publically to take even a little heat off? Or if he's cooperated with LE, why not announce that? Anything would help. It seems like a low-risk strategy if he truly has no information.
 
cluciano63 said:
Ugh, I can't help thinking of the bunch down in Satsuma, FL...can't get much more pressure than 15-25 years in state prison...and nothing...but of course this group at IU isn't used to jails and prisons, as far as we know. Could be a different result.
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I can't help but compare these 2 cases. The main difference, of course, is money and lifestyle, but I can't help but notice how different the 2 LEs are. Whereas this LE immediately started talking about POIs, LE in the Haleigh Cummings cases, has never named a single POI. There's been one named suspect, and that was done in drug court. I doubt there's a single person keeping up with the Cumming's case, who couldn't name at least 3 different POIs, based on personal opinion. Honestly, IDK which is the better tactic...play it close to the vest and give certain people of interest a false sense of security, or go public with labels in an attempt to scare lesser involved into talking. The flip side is that these people hired lawyers... and really good lawyers, at that. I guess time will tell if it worked. Personally, I can't see that the Satsuma tactics accomplished much. It's working on 3 years, and there still aren't many answers. moo,
 
dodie20 said:
cluciano63 said:
Ugh, I can't help thinking of the bunch down in Satsuma, FL...can't get much more pressure than 15-25 years in state prison...and nothing...but of course this group at IU isn't used to jails and prisons, as far as we know. Could be a different result.
Click to expand...
I can't help but compare these 2 cases. The main difference, of course, is money and lifestyle, but I can't help but notice how different the 2 LEs are. Whereas this LE immediately started talking about POIs, LE in the Haleigh Cummings cases, has never named a single POI. There's been one named suspect, and that was done in drug court. I doubt there's a single person keeping up with the Cumming's case, who couldn't name at least 3 different POIs, based on personal opinion. Honestly, IDK which is the better tactic...play it close to the vest and give certain people of interest a false sense of security, or go public with labels in an attempt to scare lesser involved into talking. The flip side is that these people hired lawyers... and really good lawyers, at that. I guess time will tell if it worked. Personally, I can't see that the Satsuma tactics accomplished much. It's working on 3 years, and there still aren't many answers. moo,
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IDK Did LE name ANY of the POIs? Or were the names all supplied by HT???
 
If people have no information to provide that is one thing. Yet, there is a straight forward, forthcoming truth which can be expressed. In their humanity people can express a sense of caring and equanimity. I am transparently more of a philosopher than a scientist or strategist; so I look for truth, not just facts, and I have hope that the 'truth will out'. Not very useful but....
 
elmomom said:
IDK Did LE name ANY of the POIs? Or were the names all supplied by HT???
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I believe LE defined POIs as persons who had contact with LS before she went missing, and also her boyfriend. So even if LE didn't actually named them, we can figure out who POIs are.
 
Blythe said:
If people have no information to provide that is one thing. Yet, there is a straight forward, forthcoming truth which can be expressed. In their humanity people can express a sense of caring and equanimity. I am transparently more of a philosopher than a scientist or strategist; so I look for truth, not just facts, and I have hope that the 'truth will out'. Not very useful but....
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Sometimes...no information=information= questions answered for two anguished parents.

To remain silent is cruel.
 
I am very conservative in my views on this case so far,
probably far too conservative by some standards, but
it is the way I work most of the time.

I do not yet have a solid theory for this case.

I still do not yet know a serious crime occurred.
No blood, no body and no witness saying a serious crime happened
(at least none that was released in MSM report.)

Do I think it is possible a serious crime occurred?
Sure I think it is very possible but I cannot yet
cross that line into probable.
However, from things I have read in MSM news articles
LE thinks it is probable that a serious crime occurred.

'. . .Spierer, 20, was reported missing last Friday afternoon.
Lt. Bill Parker said Tuesday that she was last seen by a
male friend walking home to her apartment in downtown Bloomington
at around 4:30 a.m. Friday. He said foul play is suspected . . .'
(BBM)
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/0...disappearance-indiana-college-student-lauren/

Who does LE think might be involved and might have info
to share with LE?
'. . . At today's news conference, Capt. Joe Qualters said the words "perplexing,"
"curious" and "disturbing" might be the adjectives chosen to describe
Spierer's friends' behavior. "All in all, I think I'd probably characterize it as
unfortunate," Qualters said. . . .'
http://abcnews.go.com/US/lauren-spierer-missing-frustration-silent-friends-search/story?id=13923810

To me this sounds as if LE is unhappy with the level of help they have gotten from
those involved in the events of that night.

Who was asked to give DNA samples?
'. . . Investigators in the case of missing 20-year-old Indiana University student
Lauren Spierer have collected DNA samples from several young men who were
allegedly among the last to see the young woman. . . .'

'. . . Two of these men are Spierer's friends, Corey Rossman, the student she was with
on June 3, the morning she disappeared, and Mike Beth, his roommate. . . .'
http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-indiana-student-dna-collected-men-allegedly/story?id=13819375

Who else was asked for a sample? Who were the other 'several young men'?
I do not have a list & do not know if a complete list was ever published in MSM.
Does this mean any of those young men are guilty of a serious crime?
I do not think it means exactly that but taken together all this information
makes it appear that LE suspects foul play and suspects that
these (or some of these) people could possibly be involved in that foul play even though they
are not named as 'suspects' in any crime yet.

Have I read cases in the past where LE suspected foul play
only to have it turn out to be a case of adult runaway? Yes,
and I cannot yet rule that out with the available information
from MSM reports. It is not my theory that this happened or
that it did not happen. It is just a possibility that I cannot yet
rule out.

I also cannot rule out a stranger abduction. I keep an open mind
about it but there has not yet been any evidence in MSM,
since the truck lead was laid to rest, to support that possibility.

If a serious crime was committed:
Given the MSM reports:
So far the most likely possibility seems to be that one or more
persons present at those events knows what happened and was
at least in part responsible.

New evidence could easily change all of that but that's where
things seem to stand at the moment.

I actually hope Lauren turns up alive & well so her parents
can hug her and then paddle her for scaring them so much,
but my theory must be based on more than hope.

I do not yet have a solid theory on this case. It is why I have not posted
much about this case so far. I need more to work with.
 
I agree, Doc. At this point I can deduce several theories and make equally convincing arguments for each of them.
 
This has been a really hard case for me to follow. There are no answers. I rarely leave the fence. I have no idea what happened to this beautiful girl.

Even though the last two cases I followed haven't had any real resolution (Kyron and Hailey Dunn), I do have serious suspicious pointing towards the step parents.

In Lauren's case, I have nothing. No idea what happened. My butt is firmly on the fence
 
kissdegirl said:
I think about someone grabbing her too. From the photos Btown posted, it seems there were more than 1 area where someone could just be waiting. I can't find the link anymore, but I know it's out there somewhere, but it was of a team of searchers walking her path in the dark from Smallwood to the 5 North Apts. It was just sooooo dark. I need to find that video. It put so much in perspective for me, just about the walk itself and the darkness of the areas she was that night.
Click to expand...

Is this the video?

Fri Jun 10 Searchers retrace Lauren Spierer’s steps through alley
http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/10/news.717307.sto
 
I worry about whether or not the right kind of dogs were used early on; were they tracking dogs or cadaver dogs, or both? If Lauren had fallen into some kind of a hole or crevice that was covered up the next morning by workers, for example, would the dogs have found her? I have great faith in search dogs overall, yet have heard of cases where people were later found in areas that were searched pretty extensively. I think that there is a chance she could have had an accident like this, after hearing about the construction, jagged areas, ditches, etc. just as there is a chance she was pulled into a passing vehicle (that seems to have passed invisibly...) You'd think she would have been found by now, but you never know.
 
jjenny said:
No, LE didn't see the encounter on surveillance footage. They said they viewed the video and there was nothing resembling the account of this witness at 3:38 am.
Click to expand...

@btown... Could you put the 3:38 reported sighting on the map?
Also, would it be possible to put dotted lines around the cam viewable area at the end of the alley going into the gravel lot behind 5 North College?

I think it would help if we could see where the bartender reports she saw LS and the Dark Man as well as the range of the Cam in that area.

My understanding is that her sighting was closer to one of the N. College Ave openings that connect the Gravel lot to N. College Ave. i don't recall hearing that her report would have placed LS in range of the alley cam or any other cam. (Also still curious why LE would doubt her at all?)

Thanks!
 
cluciano63 said:
I worry about whether or not the right kind of dogs were used early on; were they tracking dogs or cadaver dogs, or both? If Lauren had fallen into some kind of a hole or crevice that was covered up the next morning by workers, for example, would the dogs have found her? I have great faith in search dogs overall, yet have heard of cases where people were later found in areas that were searched pretty extensively. I think that there is a chance she could have had an accident like this, after hearing about the construction, jagged areas, ditches, etc. just as there is a chance she was pulled into a passing vehicle (that seems to have passed invisibly...) You'd think she would have been found by now, but you never know.
Click to expand...

Search dogs can pick up a sent, but the Detective has to understand what to do with that information. I believe a few threads back, I posted about our house burglary. We had a crime dog at the house. I had told the responding officer that I'd discovered my back door unlocked. My younger girls sometimes left this unlocked when they came in, so naturally, I suspected this was how the burglar(s) entered. The detective really didn't look around to check the other doors. My son had found the unlocked door, then we jumped to that conclusion. A Detective arrived with a Crime Dog. The dog picked up a sent but the Detective said something like, "That's weird. The dog is detecting the sent LEAVING your house here but he's not picking up the sent coming in here." (DUH) He took the dog around my back yard a bit then said that there was really no new information, then left. Three days later, my husband noticed that our three screens in the back were slashed and one of the window's locks was broken, and the window jimmied upward! THAT was how they got in, then they left through the door (which THEY unlocked before leaving), hence why the dogs picked up on their sent LEAVING through that door. Because the Detective never went over by the windows, the dog never picked up a sent there. When it all came out what had happened, I was told that they (LE) were "embarrassed". My point is that sometimes things "seem" obvious b/c of witness/victim statements (mine re. the door) when they aren't true. Sometimes even LE places too much emphasis upon those statements. Also, the dogs can only get a sent when they're in the right location, led by a Detective. The last thing is that regardless of what the dogs pick up, that information seems to be only as good as the Detective is "smart", on that given day. I'm not saying that LE on our case weren't "smart" because I believe they were. They were very responsive and helpful, but human error plays a big part and we ALL have it.

My fear is that if dogs weren't used for days, the sent can get lost. Also, I'd assume that LE would use dogs in the areas where the witnesses said LS had been. What if LS had never been to CR/MB/JR's places? What if something happened just beyond camera shot in the alley and the rest is just a "story"? Maybe they didn't even take the dogs to the alley, say.....again...relying on witness statements, etc...... The dogs can be a great resource and I too believe in them, but there has to be a good mastermind behind the dog who is UNBIASED.
 
VeryVeritas said:
@btown... Could you put the 3:38 reported sighting on the map?
Also, would it be possible to put dotted lines around the cam viewable area at the end of the alley going into the gravel lot behind 5 North College?

I think it would help if we could see where the bartender reports she saw LS and the Dark Man as well as the range of the Cam in that area.

My understanding is that her sighting was closer to one of the N. College Ave openings that connect the Gravel lot to N. College Ave. i don't recall hearing that her report would have placed LS in range of the alley cam or any other cam. (Also still curious why LE would doubt her at all?)

Thanks!
Click to expand...

The reported 3:38 sighting was at the southeast corner of the 10th & College Apartment building --- in other words, the northwest corner of the intersection of 10th and College Avenue. It's not really that close to the gravel lot at all --- it's on the opposite side of the apartment building from that, actually.
 
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