IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #14

[jjenny]

Well, it does take them an inordinate amount of time to travel a very short distance so I am assuming that they stopped walking to do whatever activity it was that LE would not identify. there is no way to know if it were an ordinary or out of ordinary activity, as we just don't know.

7 minutes is hardly an inordinate time to travel for a girl with no shoes and a man who was allegedly punched in the head.

 

[phantomthought]

my guess is that she was about to enter her residence (which she would like to keep private) and that she knows exactly when she got home

I guess I would wonder why someone that concerned about privacy would be giving an interview and not just go strait to the police.

 

[elmomom]

7 minutes is hardly an inordinate time to travel for a girl with no shoes and a man who was allegedly punched in the head.

Well to me it is!

 

[elmomom]

I guess I would wonder why someone that concerned about privacy would be giving an interview and not just go strait to the police.

She did go to the police, as far as the privacy, maybe she lives right there, and that is what she wanted to keep private. (and she did by not giving her reference for the time) I really have no idea, but it was just seemed like one logical reason to explain why she didn't give a reason for knowing the exact time.

 

[jjenny]

Well to me it is!

It is actually 6 minutes, not 7 (she left at 2:42 and she is on camera entering the alley at 2:48). And I don't understand how it could possibly be an "inordinate" amount of time, especially considering their alleged intoxication, the fact that she had no shoes and CR was allegedly punched in the head.

 

[akh]

The other question I'd have on this is as follows. If the "mystery man" is someone they already know, and this person is the last to be seen with LS, then why not name him as a POI along with CR, JR, etc? I understand trying to get the named guys to mess their stories up, but why would LE deem someone like CR to be a POI worth naming, but not this person who was seen with her almost 50 minutes after the last alley sighting?

If my theory is correct that the police want to downplay this witness account in order to give some or all of the guys some rope and keep them wondering what they know about the reported timeline then they cannot name someone like this a person of interest or it blows the idea of keeping this account vague, if not buried. Also, there's no need in publicly naming this person at this point as a POI because JR has already placed himself with LS after the 3:38AM witness sighting. The guy could very well be a current POI but no need to name him and no need for a massive manhunt since he's either not involved directly (although you'd think he'd at least have to have taken LS to JR's and be known to JR and would know police need to hear his story... if you assume the mystery man is not JR), already known to police, and would be implicated (or cleared) if JR would ultimately be the guilty party.

IOW... in this scenario JR holds the key... unless she truly was able to recover her senses enough to walk away from his apartment at 4:30AM after being dropped off there earlier that morning. Even if she died with this mystery man on the street soon after being seen at 3:38AM then JR is clearly involved because that would mean his story is absolutely bogus and there'd be no logical reason I could think of to put himself in that position...

So in that case, the police would not be as lost as some think but instead just trying to tie up the loose ends... and make sure they have everyone that was involved and not just possibly JR and the mystery man. ...And have a solid and logical theory of the crime.

They'd also want to make sure and exonerate the boyfriend and do things like search his place with dogs just to cover their bases for a future trial when a JR defense atty would happily point out that statistically it's the boyfriend in these cases and in this case the boyfriend could've had all kinds of motive.

If the 3:38AM sighting is taken seriously internally, regardless of any games the police might be playing publicly with it, then I don't think they are throwing spaghetti against the wall now to see what sticks. I think they are covering their bases and closing in on someone.... Likely JR.

 

[Darcyline]

Oh jeeze the activity in the alleyway-I really wish LE would clarify what the activity it is. It could just be walking. It could just be stumbling into one another. It could be making out. Maybe one falls and the other helps him/her up. People have theorized that some sort of drug use or sale went down. I personally don't believe that one is plausible. For some reason, the "activity" in the alleyway drives me crazy. If they just walked by I hate that they worded it in a way that could imply something else!

 

[PineMushroom]

They said they obtained search warrants very early on. And even if they didn't, foresenic evidence of a body on a trunk would still be traceable.

They listed the POI's early on, I think they probably did searh their homes/cars. It would be crazy not to.

What do you mean by "early on"? According the Herald-Times reporting, the first mention of even CR in the press was by his lawyer Salzmann on Thursday June 9th, the same day that police confirm they have POIs but no suspects.

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/tags/lauren_spierer

CR consented to the police search of his car and that was done on June 9th:

Salzmann said today that police have now searched Rossman’s Jeep Grand Cherokee, credit card records, and cellphone, and that Rossman has cooperated with those searches.

http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...ar-credit-card-records-100-000-reward-offered

As for JW and JR (assuming they have cars), we do not know when they left B-town, but I have a suspicion that perhaps it was before the 9th. So, then you get into questions of probable cause for search warrants etc. for rented property with multiple unrelated persons who aren't there and also issues for out of state searches and the intricacies that are involved in all that...

Keep in mind that is wasn't until Tuesday night June 7th that they broke down the door at Smallwood to get the video tape surveillance and computers, etc.

So I just see nothing where in the press accounts that make me believe there were as many searches done on POI properties (including cars) as you may think and certainly nothing to suggest that they were done 'early on'.

Edit: Included link to Hereld-Times articles with LS tag.

 

[Tr.]

I would be happy if they could just get to the point of POI vs random abduction and be able to direct their resources in one direction.

What if MB and JR both got the times wrong by an hour?
If HT were gathering intel the next day...it seems feasible that they had to guestimate what time LS was at 5 North.
If the first one she talked to got the time wrong then the second would follow suit with HT's guidance.

So,,let's say Lauren left 5 North at 3:30 and was actually fallen down intoxicated.
This makes the 3:38 sighting much more likely to be the key.
So our mystery man is most likely the one we really need to find out more about.

JR is simply worried about the fact that he let her leave in that kind of condition and/or contributed to her condition.

Opinions?

 

[jjenny]

Then who exactly would be calling DR at 4:15? In addition, MB simply can't be off by an hour because LS was on her way over there at 2:51 am (on camera). So she should have arrived at MB's and CR's apartment shortly thereafter.

 

[Tr.]

Then who exactly would be calling DR at 4:15? In addition, MB simply can't be off by an hour because LS was on her way over there at 2:51 am (on camera). So she should have arrived at MB's and CR's apartment shortly thereafter.

Right. The times work. Arrive at 5 North 3:00 am and leave the building at 3:30 for a 3:38 encounter with someone.

As to the phone call at 4:15...who knows. I think JR was put under more pressure than he could handle and probably lied about more than one detail.

But when he states that he told LS that "if you stumble , I won't let you leave"..(or something to that effect)...I'll bet she was stumbling plenty.

 

[akh]

Oh jeeze the activity in the alleyway-I really wish LE would clarify what the activity it is. It could just be walking. It could just be stumbling into one another. It could be making out. Maybe one falls and the other helps him/her up. People have theorized that some sort of drug use or sale went down. I personally don't believe that one is plausible. For some reason, the "activity" in the alleyway drives me crazy. If they just walked by I hate that they worded it in a way that could imply something else!

But due to CR's alleged blackout the police really can't give out that info because it would (or could) be a tip off to those involved on how to frame their stories and alibis.

Her condition in the alley, and CR's as well, could help to exonerate CR and to some degree MB. Or it could help to implicate them if she's totally incoherent and having difficulty walking while he's seemingly OK. It would be another nail in the coffin of the idea that she walked from their apartment to JR's apartment on her own and then left JR's apartment to walk home.

Then again, what if there's another person helping them both in the alley? What if the blackout is real? Then if that 3rd person hasn't come forward that would be telling because their presence could be known only to LS and CR. So again, police wouldn't want to mention that or they tip off some people that their story isn't fitting or is incomplete.

If the alley video shows LS walking under her own power then it leads credence to the possibility that MB's account is accurate. In fact, she could've left their apartment (even if staggering), went to JR's, did something (drugs/booze) there, and left with JR and/or someone else (who's to say it's only the mystery man she is with... he just happens to be the one that put her over his shoulder), and her and the mystery man easily could have been sighted by the 3:38AM witness in this scenario. Possibly as she's falling into a coma or suffering some type of cardiac condition. Or possibly as the witness (apparently) assumed and was seeing her in a drug and/or alcohol induced stupor and the act of being carried led to her hitting her head somehow.

She may never even have been returned to JR's under that scenario. And that would help explain the lack of vomit and bodily fluids some were saying they'd expect in the case of an OD.

But again, there's really no reason I can think of for police to tell exactly what is happening in the alley video because they want to compare that to the stories they are told. And they can't fill in the blanks for a POI like CR who is claiming blackout. And they have JR putting a period on the story of her time at their apartments. So no matter what they see in the video, or what they learn from witnesses prior to 4:30AM, JR has placed himself with her after that. And he has (we think) a 4:15AM phone call that he says was her using his phone. So he's tied to that 4:30AM timeline at this point. Anything the police would learn and not share about the time prior to that would have to make him sweat if he's involved in her disappearance. And would give him no clue on how to change his story (something he could 'suddenly recall') to fit with or spin some known facts (as shown on video or claimed by witnesses that he would likely know to be true).

And the same would be true even if it isn't JR they are focusing on but the boyfriend or someone else.

But that 3:38AM witness is not good for JR if to be believed.

 

[phantomthought]

Is their any info on the out of town visitor.Did he have his car their,was he using someone's car.When did he leave.When was he suppose to leave.How long had he been their.Did he have any interaction with LS before this night.Could he have not been happy that LS left with CR to go to Kilroys instead of staying their with him and JR.

 

[Tr.]

Is their any info on the out of town visitor.Did he have his car their,was he using someone's car.When did he leave.When was he suppose to leave.How long had he been their.Did he have any interaction with LS before this night.Could he have not been happy that LS left with CR to go to Kilroys instead of staying their with him and JR.

Good points. We need to here from MB as to LS's behavior and condition.
We need to know if MB is 100% sure what time they arrived at his place.

MB is the one who was up late doing homework and was likely not intoxicated and could be deemed somewhat more reliable....maybe

 

[Tr.]

Then who exactly would be calling DR at 4:15? In addition, MB simply can't be off by an hour because LS was on her way over there at 2:51 am (on camera). So she should have arrived at MB's and CR's apartment shortly thereafter.

See what you mean now.

MB's time report would be accurate and JR's would have to be off by one hour for LS to have left 5 North at 3:30.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I've been reading everyone's likely theories as to what happened. Here are some ideas and concepts I'm struggling with:

First, I just don't agree with the idea that LS got randomly abducted, either on the way to Smallwood or the way to JW's house. Yes, it is possible, but only because anything is possible. Realistically, knowing Bloomington and knowing the areas she would've been walking in, there is a far better chance that she would've been assaulted and raped and left in an alley than to have gotten swooped up in someone's car. Not that the assault/alley combo is likely to begin with, but it's far more likely than her just getting abducted.

The idea that she tried to go to JW's house is not itself implausible, and this is a girl who would've been well-conditioned to making that walk, because JW's house is in a nearly direct line between LS's apartment and the heart of campus, which is where her classes would've likely been. I do think it's more likely that *if* JW is involved, he likely walked over to the area between Smallwood and 5 North --- that walk isn't going to take any more than 8-10 minutes.

Now, regarding the OD theory...I agree with curiousgirl and a few others in that I just can't see an OD being part of this story, for a couple of reasons. First, as has been stated by others, the idea that the guys would freak out to the point of ditching the body after an OD seems implausible, particularly since they were likely as effed up as LS was. Even if they were, the idea that they'd allow the case to fester like this, and possibly put themselves in danger of being accused of murder, makes even less sense.

Plus...think about how this might have gone down. If she ODs and goes into a drug seizure, it's not like she's going to die immediately. Almost anyone watching that situation is going to call 911, because watching someone going through a drug seizure is impossible to ignore. Plus it would leave all sorts of nasty fluids and DNA all over the place...not just on carpets and furniture, but probably on other people's clothes.

If she passed out without seizing up, I can't imagine that her male companion(s) would immediately leap to the conclusion that she was dead. I would think a catatonic LS would have just been laid on the couch to "sleep it off"...not disposed of.

The more I think about this case, the more it seems like the crucial time period is 2:30 AM - 3:00 AM. If you're like me and you discount the OD and abduction theories as implausible, then the prime period of time for something bad to have happened to LS was from the moment she entered Smallwood until the moments after she went out of view of the camera at 10th and College Village.

There are a lot of inconsistencies in what you're saying...
1) You say it's implausible for the OD Scenario, but you think it's perfectly ok to think that should would walk to JW's at 3:00am (the end of your crucial period) but JR says she called DR at 4:15. If she were on her way to JW's how would that make any sense? Ok, let's say maybe you meant to say that 4:00 to 5:00am was the crucial period... in this case why would she call DR from JR's instead of JW's if she was going to his house? Wouldn't it make more sense that she was going to DR's at 4:15 than JW's since that's who JR said she called? Now of course this is all based on JR telling the truth. If he is lying about the 4:15 call, then she didn't just walk over to JW's did she?
2) It's been demonstrated probably 20 times on this blog that YES even good friends have friends drop dead while under the influence of various substances and ditch the body. So, however implausible you think it might be it's been proven to be a frequent enough occurrence so as not to be considered implausible.
3) your statement about 2:30 to 3:00 am as the "crucial period" does not point to any relevance. LS was captured on cam at 2:48 exiting the Alley and "Activity" was recorded. Yet JR say she left his place at 4:15 to 4:30.
It seems to me that the Crucial period is between 3:00am (about when she would be leaving CR/MB's and 4:15 (when she supposedly called DR and left JR's)

Since you don't buy the random stranger abduction and are logical about that, I'm puzzled how you reach these other conclusions?

 

[VeryVeritas]

I am heartened about the way folks in this space are discussing the 3:38a witness sighting with such importance. I am out on a limb on this --being that I am still the only one reporting her existence -- despite police confirmation. Please may I make a very important statement here: This Woman Is A Great Citizen. She saw something and said something. She went to police. She went back to work-up a sketch. I feel that she has been a little left out to dry. Maybe by police, who "debunked" some of her story. Whether she got everything right or not, she is the only person that I know of who has had information about this case and has gone to authorities.

@Tony

Could you clear up exactly what she said and exactly what was "debunked" by LE? The statements I have read in the press were inconsistent. She was talking about being over on N. College near 10th while LE said it was not confirmed on cams. But the Cam near that corner doesn't point at the street, it's pointing up the walk directly against the building there, not the sidewalk down N. College. Yet the LE statement seems to be talking about the Alley Cam pointing at the gravel lot. I don't see how such a big difference in location qualifies as "debunking". So, if you could please clear this up, it would be helpful. I have heard NOTHING that pokes holes in 3:38's credibility.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Is it just me or would anyone else really like to know the exact details of what happened after CR's was put to bed...the details between him being put to bed and her supposedly been seen by JR at the corner. Where did she go first..how long was she there..what did they do...what made her leave to the next guy...am I wrong in hearing that after Cr's she was at two places? What in the heck went on at these two places?

It would seem that #1 Hoosier Lawyer's Client JR is the one with the answers to your(and my) questions... If you wanted to help the investigation why would you leave such a void in this hour or so before she vanishes? It's such a void, and it's continued so long, that it smells like fish!

 

[Walker]

I still most definitely believe the 3:38am sighting. I just think that there are not that many people out on the streets at that hour and with the amount of hoopla this case has created locally, I'm sure the witness would know if it was Lauren or not. I'm wondering now if perhaps it was JR's visitor that she was seen with?? This could explain why none of the images she was shown by LE matched who she saw. This could explain also why nobody local has come forward and said it was not Lauren, but instead themselves and another female. Could be that LS did go right to JR's place, but for some reason JR's visitor and LS leave. It could be that the visitor was attempting to walk Lauren home, she realized she doesn't have her keys and JR's visitor takes her back to his place.

IMO, there is no video of 10th & College, and because of that police say they don't have info to corroborate her story, but it doesn't mean that it never happened, just that there is no video evidence. If the witness was not credible, I do not think she would have been taken to the station to have a sketch developed. IMO, I think the police believed her enough to see if the sketch would resemble any of the current POI's.

I do not think that any of the POI's had any interest in killing her, or motive to do so. I think it's very possible that she could have OD'd or possibly something happened when she hit her head. What I don't understand is, if this happened, why wouldn't these guys call 911? Unless there were copious amounts of drugs, I don't see a reason why they wouldn't call 911, and would instead think it would be better to dispose of her body.

Maybe LS and JR's guest returned to JR's apartment after the 3:38 am possible sighting.

Maybe LS did make the 4:15 am call; perhaps thinking that DR might be awake, and could let her in to the Smallwood building and back to her apartment.

Maybe some person(s) raped LS in JR's apartment, then killed her to cover up the rape.


But hopefully this theory is wrong, and she is hiding out in a rural commune somewhere.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I don't think the timeline will ever be verifed in any satisfactory way. It could only be put together based on what the various POI's say. I don't think anyone who is not a POI would have any idea.

Well that's not quite true. There are cams, there are phones, and there are quite a few people involved. If they all give detailed accounts of what happened, they will either sync up or red flags will pop up. There is a big difference between a minute to minute timeline and a big empty void.
We know LS and CR were exiting the Alley at 2:48 where "Activity" occurred. LE knows how long this "Activity" lasted on the cam. And the nature of that Activity may have given rise to some of the actions of LE. For example if she stumbled and fell and CR picked her up... we don't know if that's the activity... but something like that would slow down LS and CR approach to CR's place. MB may have given a more detailed account of what happened at the apartment, who was there, and how long LS was there. He, being sober, should have a good idea of how much time passed between CR/LS's arrival and departure. LE may have purposefully not revealed the length of this time interval. It could be 5 minutes... it may have been more like 15... we don't know. What we know is that it was not a long period of time. We also know that others were there, but it's not clear who these people are! We know that JR and his guest seemed to be present. We have nothing after that until JR says she left....
If she did leave (willingly, alive or dead) before 4:15 it could corroborate the 3:38 witness's story. There is also the witness and roommate who came home around 3:00 and 4:20 on 11th St. There is AA who found the purse and keys at about 3:00am. AA has told LE how long he was in that immediate area. There may be other bits and pieces that LE has not released that happened after 3:00am... As JR and company reveal their version of events, they better be sure it fits in with everything LE knows or will find out. 2 people so far say LS was alive at around 3am... MB and JR. So that seems reasonable that at that point she was alive - 2 people are saying it, if it were not true, it would be a conspiracy. But then only 1 person who has said very little says she was alive after that and up until about 4:15 to 4:30. An awful lot hinges on this persons words. But there was at least 1 other person there during this time. Both of these people need to be questioned in depth about that time interval. It is improbable that she left and was abudcted at 4:15 am on that block, so there is probable cause to as JR and whomever else was in the company of LS and attempt to determine where they actually were (it may not have been JR's).