IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #17

[VeryVeritas]

I admit I have not gone into the timeline in as great a detail as I intend
to so I don't know if the opportunity to use the drug came along at
any later time in the evening.
That having been said: I see no cause to think you are being
unreasonable. What does that do for how you see the case?

@doc - If only my Tardis were working...

To preface my answer...
Not everyone's mind works the same. I'm the sort of person that brainstorms. Willing to consider all possibilities (yet that doesn't mean I'd give them equal weight) That definitely rubs people the wrong way who have a lot of protocols established even in how they allow themselves to think or perceive things. Definitely not "predjudiced" nor generally ignorant of the planet and it's peoples - very much the opposite. Yet it can be difficult to sugar coat questions for others with very justifiable sensitivities. My goal here is none other than to get at the truth of what happened to Lauren Getting at the truth isn't usually a straightforward process.

This past week a lot of new theories, or more like interchangeable parts of the existing theories combined with some new ones has created an array of possibilities. All starting with the same known(or assumed) facts and LE's disclosed info about cam vids, and all ending with LS missing. Each day I spend thinking about this and gathering new information - interacting here with such a great sleuthing community, I sometimes feel like we are tunneling through space-time to see what happened.

So, to answer your question... The idea that CR and/or LS were slipped something in the midst of their "Partying" (whatever that may actually mean in this group's context) certainly would be far more diabolical and premeditated than most or the more likely and discussed scenarios.
Unfortunately, it seems at this stage without new info coming from LE, theories are stacking up. Yet, with this particular theory it seems to me it could be narrowed to the people at JR's and/or at Kilroys. Methodical police work could deduce that down to a short list. Perhaps LE is already way ahead on that. Even if planned drugging were involved there are quite a few possibilities of why that would have been done.
The main ones that come to mind:
1) Rape (and then what?)
a) she stops breathing and dies from the drug/acohol/Long QT combo
b) an accident occurs before, during or after and she dies
2) Abduction (and then what?)
a) held captive (why?)
b) sold or traded for profits, to settle debts, or due to extortion
3) Murder (why?)
a) Crime of Passion
b) Jealousy or Hate Crime (for being rich and/or blonde and/or attractive and/or Jewish)
c) Retaliation (she was close to someone and this was a message or payback to them, or other "get even" schemes like; she was informant, she rejected me, she was blackmailing me, etc...)
d) Mental illness
e) Silence (she knew too much, wrong place at the wrong time)

Of course without CR and/or LS being slipped a drug, most of this could still apply if they voluntarily took something and mixed with alcohol.
So without more facts I'm still leaning towards an accidental death (80%) (including voluntary or involuntary drug use/mixing). Considering some of the suspicions raised and new information I would move an insider planned abduction/rape/murder up a notch to (15%) and everything else (5%)

JMMHO

 

[TobyWong*]

Video of AB...
http://www.twitvid.com/W6E4F

The only thing that jumped out to me are the sideburns.

The little round black thing??hmm it looks to small to be a grinder. He does'nt seem to protective of it so I don't think a drug container. But it could be.??

Thanks TonyGatto. You have given us(me) alot of little tidbits that help fill in some questions.

 

[docwho3]

@doc - If only my Tardis were working...

LOL no kidding

. . .So, to answer your question... The idea that CR and/or LS
were slipped something in the midst of their "Partying" (whatever that may
actually mean in this group's context) certainly would be far more
diabolical and premeditated than most or the more likely and discussed
scenarios. . .

I too thought that at first becuase I had that case in mind where some
young woman had just graduated her class in criminal justice
and was targeted by the tavern bouncer. She was kicked out of the bar
when she stayed past closing time but bar owners at first failed to
mention this to investigating LE. I don't know that any drug was used on
her but the overall structure of the case made me remember it when this
current case came up.
http://missingexploited.com/2006/03/07/imette-st-guillen-argued-with-bouncer-darryl-littlejohn/

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-student-strangled,0,6625210.story

It has since occurred to me that it might not have been quite so sinister
as one might think.
Supposing murder was never intended by whomever, I take note that
Lauren was probably much smaller in body size than those with her.
It is likely that a dose that might work well on others could easily have
been a problem for her with a heart condition thrown into the mix and
due to her small body size.
'. . .-Height: 4’11”
-Weight: 90-100 lbs . . .'
http://www.facebook.com/notes/nancy...-indiana-university-student/10150629463265022

I would not have thought anyone would take such a drug on purpose for
recreation but I saw an episode of 'cops' recently where they stopped
some drunk and he was high on a date rape drug that he took on purpose.
The guy admitted it & was so messed up he could not stand.
So I have no idea if anyone used it recreationally that night that Lauren
disappeared or not. I personally do not think that anyone was using the
drug to party. I do not know if anyone slipped them anything either.

I am not pointing fingers at anyone at this point I am just discussing the
possible mechanics that might explain the two of them being described
as having unusual symptoms. (I read it was said she had not left shoes
and phone behind before & I am supposing memory loss was not
something the young man usually had or I think MSM
would have been reporting it.)

I don't know too much about the oral forms of the drugs but I think it is
fairly fast acting. If it becomes necessary I suppose we can look up the
info online somewhere.

I don't want to go too far out on this limb yet because I don't yet
even know if something bad actually happened to the young woman.

 

[Tr.]

LOL no kidding
I don't know too much about the oral forms of the drugs but I think it is
fairly fast acting. If it becomes necessary I suppose we can look up the
info online somewhere.

Thanks.
We know that LS was at the bar approximately 40 min before supposedly being asked to leave due to her behavior. She left behind her phone and shoes.
We know that it's approximately a 15-20 min walk from 5 North to the bar.
It may be a 10 min walk from the bar to Smallwood.
We know from LE's video collected at Smallwood that LS and CR were inside Smallwood no more than 10 min.
CR supposedly began to experience memory loss prior to the altercation that took place inside that 10 min time-frame at Smallwood.

CR's memory loss had began no more than 60-65 min after leaving the 5 north building and much less time from the bar itself.

 

[Tr.]

@doc - If only my Tardis were working...

To preface my answer...
Not everyone's mind works the same. I'm the sort of person that brainstorms. Willing to consider all possibilities (yet that doesn't mean I'd give them equal weight)

JMMHO

I'm a big fan of your brain storms...thanks for all you do.

 

[Tr.]

CR's memory loss had began no more than 60-65 min after leaving the 5 north building and much less time from the bar itself.

It may be more accurate to say his memory loss begins prior to the altercation (per his statements)...so no later than 2:40 am?

 

[Jupiter812]

Isn't this the video of LS heading toward JR and CR's building at 2:51?

The vague statement about "someone else" is troublesome-- someone other than CR or is LE saying someone was with her, she wasn't alone?

He's referring to both alley videos--2:48 and the 2:51 is the last sighting. I think that since up to this point LE has freely said she's been seen with CR at several locations and times, there is no reason for them to withhold that info at this point, so yes, I think it's someone other than CR.

 

[imkeylime]

... I am not pointing fingers at anyone at this point I am just discussing the possible mechanics that might explain the two of them being described as having unusual symptoms. (I read it was said she had not left shoes and phone behind before & I am supposing memory loss was not something the young man usually had or I think MSM would have been reporting it.)

You know, when I first heard about CR's memory loss I was skeptical. Now, not so much. I, too, wonder if they both took/were given something that, alone or combined with alcohol, induced such a state. I'm not from the Bloomington area, but I wonder how warm the temp was that morning. Would her feet have been cold w/o shoes? And not only did she forget them, but I wonder if CR noticed she was barefoot? I wonder if someone could have given them both something with the intention of 1) getting him out of the picture and 2) thus getting LS alone? Or perhaps they inadvertently were given the wrong substance, hence resulting in sleep for him and something worse for her. Perhaps legal charges could stem from that alone, thus resulting in a panic for those involved, regardless of what ultimately happened to LS.

 

[Jupiter812]

Thanks.
We know that LS was at the bar approximately 40 min before supposedly being asked to leave due to her behavior. She left behind her phone and shoes.
We know that it's approximately a 15-20 min walk from 5 North to the bar.
It may be a 10 min walk from the bar to Smallwood.
We know from LE's video collected at Smallwood that LS and CR were inside Smallwood no more than 10 min.
CR supposedly began to experience memory loss prior to the altercation that took place inside that 10 min time-frame at Smallwood.

CR's memory loss had began no more than 60-65 min after leaving the 5 north building and much less time from the bar itself.

Those time estimates are off and don't match up with reports. 3 minutes to walk to Smallwood; 9 minutes to walk to the gravel lot; plus 2-3 minutes to walk to 5 North, even if she turned west to walk on Morton.

She is on video:

* Exiting the bar at 2:27 a.m.

* Entering Smallwood at 2:30 a.m.

* Exiting Smallwood at 2:42 a.m.

* Entering the alley at 2:48 a.m.

* Exiting the alley at 2:51 a.m.

Also, fwiw, I am highly suspicious of the Sports personnel who claims she was alone and totally out of it. Sports has a vested interest to say she didn't drink there, that she was thrown out because they are being investigated. Somewhere I read both LS and CR are on video leaving Sports together.

 

[amoncrieff]

Re. HT To my knowledge her name is actually Turkish. First name and last name. There is no way she is from Israel. I dont know what relevance this is but I thought I would put it out there

How do you figure that? I know Israelis with those names, her first name is especially common. Edit: http://www.behindthename.com/name/hadar

n.b. Tamir is also popular or common. As of now, Tamir returns 435,000 Google hits in Israel (cf. Roth, 228,000).

 

[curiousgirl2010]

Can we stop talking about Israel/fleeing to Israel?

I'm Jewish and have a very Jewish name and I haven't even been in Israel...

I don't think Israel has anything to do with this.

 

[amoncrieff]

Can we stop talking about Israel/fleeing to Israel? ... I don't think Israel has anything to do with this.

Agreed. However, misinformation is misinformation. Alliecog correctly responded to a counterfactual claim re Israeli and/or Jewish names/surnames. I'm only seconding her response. It's my first & last comment on the matter.

 

[Tr.]

Those time estimates are off and don't match up with reports. 3 minutes to walk to Smallwood; 9 minutes to walk to the gravel lot; plus 2-3 minutes to walk to 5 North, even if she turned west to walk on Morton.

She is on video:

* Exiting the bar at 2:27 a.m.

* Entering Smallwood at 2:30 a.m.

* Exiting Smallwood at 2:42 a.m.

* Entering the alley at 2:48 a.m.

* Exiting the alley at 2:51 a.m.

Also, fwiw, I am highly suspicious of the Sports personnel who claims she was alone and totally out of it. Sports has a vested interest to say she didn't drink there, that she was thrown out because they are being investigated. Somewhere I read both LS and CR are on video leaving Sports together.

Thanks.

So, at the bar approx. 40 min
- left the bar at 2:27 due to LS behavior (supposedly)
- arrive at Smallwood at 2:30
- left Smallwood at 2:42 after altercation
- CR with memory loss prior to altercation.

Sounds like CR and LS ingested a drug prior to arriving at the bar. The alcohol consumed at the bar tipped the scale inside of 40 minutes.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Thanks.
We know that LS was at the bar approximately 40 min before supposedly being asked to leave due to her behavior. She left behind her phone and shoes.
We know that it's approximately a 15-20 min walk from 5 North to the bar.
It may be a 10 min walk from the bar to Smallwood.
We know from LE's video collected at Smallwood that LS and CR were inside Smallwood no more than 10 min.
CR supposedly began to experience memory loss prior to the altercation that took place inside that 10 min time-frame at Smallwood.

CR's memory loss had began no more than 60-65 min after leaving the 5 north building and much less time from the bar itself.

What is the source of CR experiencing memory loss prior to the altercation?

 

[sueC]

What is the source of CR experiencing memory loss prior to the altercation?

CR experienced memory loss of what happened prior to the altercation, but it was a result of being punched.

Lawyer says Lauren Spierer's companion has no memory of their last moments together

"He got punched in the face. He has no memory of that, or of the 15 minutes leading to that moment. The first memory he has is the next morning when he wakes up in his bed, and that's corroborated by several people."

http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...ion-has-no-memory-their-last-moments-together

 

[Jupiter812]

Thanks.

So, at the bar approx. 40 min
- left the bar at 2:27 due to LS behavior (supposedly)
- arrive at Smallwood at 2:30
- left Smallwood at 2:42 after altercation
- CR with memory loss prior to altercation.

Sounds like CR and LS ingested a drug prior to arriving at the bar. The alcohol consumed at the bar tipped the scale inside of 40 minutes.

Interesting theory. I'm listening.

Salzmann's "15 minutes" just so happens to coincide --to the minute--with their exiting Sports. A little too neat and tidy for me not to be suspicious but I'm willing to continue listening.

However, what source are you using for her supposed behavior? Because as far as I know Tony Gatto's source is the only one who has said this. It's not corroborated and source wouldn't talk to TG again. This same source says she was alone. So I'm of the opinion that unless you have another source it's not good to pick and choose what this source said.

 

[Tr.]

Video of AB...
http://www.twitvid.com/W6E4F

Do we know if that is JR at the end of the clip. (Black t-shirt..laughing)?

It appears as though AB's friends are having some fun embarrassing him.
They want to see him kiss the older gal and he appears reluctant.
I don't see anyone snort anything (as someone mentioned).
I see the kissing girl apply lip balm or lip stick prior to the kiss.
I do see the round black item on the table...no idea what that is.

A couple of things that grab me here:

- Ab is wearing gang related attire. The L.A. Kings cap is widely recognized in the gang world.

here is some info on gangs and their attire (scroll through for a chart):
http://gangsorus.com/gang_clothing.html

Also, whoever that is at the end laughing into the camera, looks wild eyed and way high.

 

[Jupiter812]

Do we know if that is JR at the end of the clip. (Black t-shirt..laughing)?

It appears as though AB's friends are having some fun embarrassing him.
They want to see him kiss the older gal and he appears reluctant.
I don't see anyone snort anything (as someone mentioned).
I see the kissing girl apply lip balm or lip stick prior to the kiss.
I do see the round black item on the table...no idea what that is.

A couple of things that grab me here:

- Ab is wearing gang related attire. The L.A. Kings cap is widely recognized in the gang world.

here is some info on gangs and their attire (scroll through for a chart):
http://gangsorus.com/gang_clothing.html

Also, whoever that is at the end laughing into the camera, looks wild eyed and way high.

The photos of the POIs in the Herald Times Online must be about 3 years old because they almost look like they still have baby fat. The man to the right of the older gal at the opening looks a bit older too. I see 2 or 3 guys that sort of look like POIs. Hard to tell.

 

[phantomthought]

I know police supposedly cleared the white truck, but does anyone else find this picture too coincidental????

http://tonygatto.wordpress.com/2011/07/09/new-tweets-and-twitpics/arjun-twitpic-truck/

Maybe there really were 2 white trucks, and the delivery guy was only 1 of them??

And add:
Whose truck is that? AB's? Or someone else's?

That's the same truck!

Remember they said the truck passed around the area twice, then LE said they screwed up, and it was only 1 time.
Maybe there were two different times, and two different trucks!

Or maybe they were misleading the public the entire time?

I am still trying to figure out why the police have not asked the public's help in finding any other vehicles that were caught on camera that night.The police have said they were looking at over 300 hours of video.Certainly their has to be other vehicles in the area or heading towards the area at the time she was suppose to be walking home.You would think they would want to talk to anyone that was driving around that time of night as a possible suspect/witness.Asking the public's help found the owner of the white truck pretty quickly.Makes me think random abduction off the street is not high on their list of possibility's.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Thanks.
We know that LS was at the bar approximately 40 min before supposedly being asked to leave due to her behavior.

Are there details on her behavior? What behavior of a 4 foot 11 inch 100 pound woman would get her kicked out of a college sports bar?

I'm curious if anyone found that she was barefoot from playing volleyball at Kilroy's too? I think it's important to know if she were able to play volleyball and if so who else played. And where inside the shoes and phone were left, were they together or in different locations?