IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #18

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But I think they really do need to find a body though. Even if a cadaver dog gets a whiff of something on the sofa or in a car trunk, can they say beyond reasonable doubt it was Lauren? Maybe, maybe not -- especially if it was previously owned.

And then, what would they charge? Can't charge manslaughter or murder without a body AND a cause of death.

They can't charge someone with dealing drugs without hard evidence, either. I think we can assume they'd get rid of drug evidence quickly.

At best, they could build a weak-ish and highly circumstantial case for the charge of... illegally dumping a body and just maybe lying to the police.

Which, in the grand scheme of things, isn't much.

If this case boils down to LS having OD'ed and someone having disposed of her remains, I think all they will ever be able to do (even if her body is found) is charge someone with dumping her body, and perhaps messing with a crime scene. I cannot imagine any other charges, since it would be basically impossible to prove who supplied the drugs, no matter who dumped the body. She was out and about and in the company of more than one person capable of sharing/supplying drugs. And she could have had them herself, from a previous purchase from yet another person. It would be darn near impossible unless they have darn good evidence of a transaction that night.
 
My choice, because I don't have 100% confirmation on who it is. I have a fair idea who it is --- the dealer was described to me as a prominent dealer who has been in trouble before. So take that for what it's worth.

Thought I'd jump in here to note the following:

The name "J R" does not appear in OTIS (Michigan Department of Corrections Offender Tracking Information System***).

The name "D B" does not appear in OTIS.

OTIS would display information about any individual sentenced (including time served or probation) under the jurisdiction of the Michigan Department of Corrections.

I'm not necessarily connecting the names above to the "dealer" described in your posts. I am conceding the above names have been cited in this context by others.

*** OTIS "holds information about all current and past prisoners, parolees & probationers." However, "in 2008, the Michigan Legislature allowed removal of offenders from the website after three years had elapsed from the discharge date. If an offender resumes supervision with the MDOC, all public records will be available on the website until the three years has again elapsed from the discharge date of the most recent MDOC jurisdiction or supervision date."
 
I'd so like to know exactly why LS went back to Smallwood, i.e., if she was going to get something/meet someone ... or if CR was perhaps taking her home because she was truly messed up. Maybe he didn't want responsibility for her or what she did next at that point? And then the altercation happened, for whatever reason, and she helped/followed him home. Or perhaps they were picking up something, with the intention of returning to Kilroy's or going to another location.

If he has any connection to an involved DD or "bigger fish," CR may be lucky to have amnesia, no matter how he got it. JR, OTOH, doesn't have that benefit. JR comes from a town in MI that I grew up by. Both are "nice" and "affluent" towns in a county (Oakland) with the same reputation, part of metro Detroit yet very different FROM Detroit itself (in nearby Wayne County). But it's also home to the highly publicized Oakland County child killer and, in my town, the execution-style, drug-related murder of a couple who owned a "smoke shop." I don't know if JR's family are long-time residents, but these stories are not ones you forget. And there are others, obviously.

I can definitely see why "friends" might not be talking to the extent you'd wish/expect if a DD or "bigger fish" is involved. Not that it's right, of course.
 
Thought I'd jump in here to note the following:

The name "JR" does not appear in OTIS (Michigan Department of Corrections Offender Tracking Information System***).

The name "DB" does not appear in OTIS.

OTIS would display information about any individual sentenced (including time served or probation) under the jurisdiction of the Michigan Department of Corrections.

I'm not necessarily connecting the names above to the "dealer" described in your posts. I am conceding the above names have been cited in this context by others.

*** OTIS "holds information about all current and past prisoners, parolees & probationers." However, "in 2008, the Michigan Legislature allowed removal of offenders from the website after three years had elapsed from the discharge date. If an offender resumes supervision with the MDOC, all public records will be available on the website until the three years has again elapsed from the discharge date of the most recent MDOC jurisdiction or supervision date."

Not sure what makes one a "prominent dealer" but some POIs appear to be more "go to" guys for drugs than others.

Having been "in trouble" can also mean off the public record. An IU student who does drugs while on university property is disciplined through the university system. Certain POIs are in this category; for example JR is rumored to have trouble as a freshman and again as a sophomore with his fraternity.
 
Did you all generate reasons why she wasn't wearing her shoes?
For example-
-wet night, save shoes.
-in car, shoes taken off, cause feet are hurting
-walking-close to home-Not far to go!
-running-take shoes off to goofily race someone
-sick/vomiting-save the shoes!!
-high heels-keep teetering when drinking, get them off?
-shoes off-cooled feet in a fountain, dangled feet in a hot tub?
-threw shoes in annoyance and left angrily-walking barefoot

I'll look back at the posts-point me to a specific post number if there is one...
 
Did you all generate reasons why she wasn't wearing her shoes?
For example-
-wet night, save shoes.
-in car, shoes taken off, cause feet are hurting
-walking-close to home-Not far to go!
-running-take shoes off to goofily race someone
-sick/vomiting-save the shoes!!
-high heels-keep teetering when drinking, get them off?
-shoes off-cooled feet in a fountain, dangled feet in a hot tub?
-threw shoes in annoyance and left angrily-walking barefoot

I'll look back at the posts-point me to a specific post number if there is one...

overwhelming evidence that the bar she left them at (kilroy's) had a sand area in a beach theme and it was not uncommon for others to go barefoot there.
 
I'd think that LE could've found enough cause for a warrant and searched this person's apt/home (including using cadaver dogs) based on this type of info.

So, as logical as it sounds there must be something missing or wrong with the scenario... or conflicting names being mentioned as the dealer to the point the police couldn't get a warrant due to a lack of specificity or something else.

...Unless I'm missing something...

...or they really are inept...

If this person is high enough up on the dealer chain, maybe LE discovered they would be stepping on another agencies toes?
 
Just want to relate some of my impressions of the events from reading posts on the PT forum:
- LS was in fact blacked out and foaming at the mouth at Sports
- It is suspected that she returned to Smallwood with the intent to get more coke
- (second-hand) The confrontation concerned CR's attention to LS (this may be romantic and/or health-related concern) and may have arisen from seeing them together and/or her messed-up condition at Sports. It may have occurred outside as well.
- Unidentified individuals at Smallwood told her to stay there, but she left with CR
- JR said that the phone call to DR, made by LS, was intended to have him pick LS up in his car to take her back to Smallwood
- Friends of JW suspect JR of disposing the body or at least lying about something, and say nothing about ZO (though this was some time ago, and they in fact went silent when ZO was mentioned)
- It doesn't seem disputed by either camp that JR used coke. Whether he was a "dealer" is disputed - it's conceded that he may not have been, but asserted that he had easy access to the drug and sold it. A semantic difference, perhaps.
- Friends of JR indicate that he would not have the presence of mind that would allow him to dispose of a body (or make up a story about it?)

Relying on the above, and assuming an OD, I would assume that one of the following must be the case:

1) LS OD'd at CR's. If he was not present already, CR called JR (because he provided the drugs?) to help dispose of the body and concoct a story. I would assume most people believe this to be highly unlikely given the multiple parties who have taken polygraph tests.

2) LS OD'd at JR's. JR disposed of the body with the aid of persons present (CR? others?) or perhaps someone he called (who is unlikely to be DR, whose involvement presumably would have been captured by Smallwood cameras and/or keycard data; JW's friends indicate DR had nothing to do with it). JR, however, has "passed" a (private) polygraph, and CR has submitted to a police test. Perhaps JR's story is for public benefit, and he has "rolled" on a higher-up dealer. If so, presumably there would be an arrest already, though perhaps LE is waiting for a body. Perhaps LE has in fact already made an arrest on a drug or other charge and is waiting for the body to add a charge related to LS?

3) LS left JR's and went to 10th and College, where she OD'd. One or more of the 10th and College residents, perhaps with a third party, disposed of the body. While JR has taken a polygraph, his purported story is misdirection by the police and/or to protect JR. This account, however, appears inconsistent with the mystery witness sighting, at least in its timing. It may also be difficult to explain given the possibility that LS's visit and removal might have been likely to be captured on camera.

4) LS went to (or outside of) 10th and College after CR/MB's (and JR's?) and then returned to JR's, perhaps with a 10th and College resident, where she OD's. The body is disposed of either by all present or by one present (with outside help?) who threatens the other(s). Is this the most likely scenario? It may be inconsistent with northsider's story that LS OD'd at a dealer's apt if JR is not in fact a/the dealer.
 
I'm not sure how the phone call to DR fits in with scenario 4 - if others are present or JR has been threatened not to talk, presumably he isn't calling anyone. Maybe he wanted DR to get him out of town?
 
I can't quite figure out how ZO's purported involvement in the confrontation fits into the supposed facts above.
 
This does not surprise me at all. Looking at her pictures - she goes from looking very robust (even if she's petite) to looking skeletal with hollowed out eyes. That's the classic look of someone who does a lot of coke (not necessarily an addict, not implying that). I've seen it many times.

Do you have links to pictures that show this?
 
It is my understanding that LE acknowledges that the witness sighting of a man, darker skinned, with side burns, (resembling one of the POIs) with a girl, resembling LS, over his shoulder and basically incoherent. Now, LE states that the witness' timing is different than what they believe. This must be because of video evidence they have. They DO NOT discount this sighting, only the time. It was posted earlier in these threads that the direction of this man/girl was not toward her apt and in a direction where cameras would be minimal at best.

All of this makes me believe that while this theory of her ODing and passing out on the couch, then someone getting rid of the body, takes into account a POI that isn't mentioned here but should be as his description matches the witness' rather well. Then I wonder if LE even did a line up for this witness? That would be rather easy while everyone is in town. Or, perhaps she identified him through pictures and they are keeping mum on this.
From TG's post:
The witness was shown a photo lineup and she says none of the six or so photos, presumably Spierer’s friends who have been named persons of interest, matched the mystery man.
http://www.tonygatto.com/
This leaves room for speculation. Note here that the witness reports being shown "six or so" photos. There are ten POI's. Was she really shown only photos of known POI's whose faces the witness might've seen in news reports?
This witness account has always puzzled me as to the weight LE has given it as well as discounted it. They claim her time was off. OK, if that's all, is her account of this scene spot on? She must be on video somewhere along her route as well. This would make the last sighting of LS later than what LE reveals, because of this witness sighting. Am I right? Are they just not disclosing? Are they just not revealing their belief on whether this was a sound sighting in the hopes that the person who allegedly had LS thrown over his shoulder might come forward and say, hey, yeah, that's me. That would be a start to answer the question - WELL WHERE DID YOU BRING HER?

At first, I was on the fence, seriously about this witness because it seemed LE discounted it from the get go as unverified. Then they go a little further and say we're not saying that didn't happen, just that it didn't happen at that time.
We have also reviewed it during the time period where it has been reported, essentially an hour later (at 3:38 a.m.), and we do not find any evidence that supports that information Qualters said.

While Qualters said he had not spoken to this witness, he acknowledged the witness had been interviewed by police: “We had spoken with someone.” He said investigators “do not have any video evidence that supports what had been reported by that particular witness.” Witness accounts can be off, he said.
Qualters does not affirm that any part of the witness' statement is accurate, neither the timing nor "the activity" she reports.


“I can’t say that she didn’t see Lauren,” Qualters continued. “It does not appear that she saw Lauren at the time that was reported by other sources.”
In this line he qualifies his statement. He can't say unequivocally that the two did not cross paths at some point (because he doesn't know where either Lauren or the witness were each minute of the evening). He is very certain, however, that the witness could not have seen Lauren in the stated location at the stated time. Had Lauren been there, she would appear in the area surveillance video at 3:38 a.m., but she does not. That's all that Qualters tells us. He gives no indication that Lauren was with a "mystery man" at any time that night.
http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/22/news.qp-4391232.sto
 
Note here that the witness reports being shown "six or so" photos. There are ten POI's. Was she really shown only photos of known POI's whose faces the witness might've seen in news reports?

I think we can assume she was shown JR, CR, MB and JW. Probably DR as well. Not HT, of course - she's female. That leaves at least one more POI. ZO is the best guess. Does the group include AB? KT (JR's neighbor who appears to have no involvement)?
 
Discussions and speculation about members/posters at other sites does not belong here Thanks.
 
Just want to relate some of my impressions of the events from reading posts on the PT forum:
- LS was in fact blacked out and foaming at the mouth at Sports
- It is suspected that she returned to Smallwood with the intent to get more coke
- (second-hand) The confrontation concerned CR's attention to LS (this may be romantic and/or health-related concern) and may have arisen from seeing them together and/or her messed-up condition at Sports. It may have occurred outside as well.
- Unidentified individuals at Smallwood told her to stay there, but she left with CR
- JR said that the phone call to DR, made by LS, was intended to have him pick LS up in his car to take her back to Smallwood
- Friends of JW suspect JR of disposing the body or at least lying about something, and say nothing about ZO (though this was some time ago, and they in fact went silent when ZO was mentioned)
- It doesn't seem disputed by either camp that JR used coke. Whether he was a "dealer" is disputed - it's conceded that he may not have been, but asserted that he had easy access to the drug and sold it. A semantic difference, perhaps.
- Friends of JR indicate that he would not have the presence of mind that would allow him to dispose of a body (or make up a story about it?)

Relying on the above, and assuming an OD, I would assume that one of the following must be the case:

1) LS OD'd at CR's. If he was not present already, CR called JR (because he provided the drugs?) to help dispose of the body and concoct a story. I would assume most people believe this to be highly unlikely given the multiple parties who have taken polygraph tests.

2) LS OD'd at JR's. JR disposed of the body with the aid of persons present (CR? others?) or perhaps someone he called (who is unlikely to be DR, whose involvement presumably would have been captured by Smallwood cameras and/or keycard data; JW's friends indicate DR had nothing to do with it). JR, however, has "passed" a (private) polygraph, and CR has submitted to a police test. Perhaps JR's story is for public benefit, and he has "rolled" on a higher-up dealer. If so, presumably there would be an arrest already, though perhaps LE is waiting for a body. Perhaps LE has in fact already made an arrest on a drug or other charge and is waiting for the body to add a charge related to LS?

3) LS left JR's and went to 10th and College, where she OD'd. One or more of the 10th and College residents, perhaps with a third party, disposed of the body. While JR has taken a polygraph, his purported story is misdirection by the police and/or to protect JR. This account, however, appears inconsistent with the mystery witness sighting, at least in its timing. It may also be difficult to explain given the possibility that LS's visit and removal might have been likely to be captured on camera.

4) LS went to (or outside of) 10th and College after CR/MB's (and JR's?) and then returned to JR's, perhaps with a 10th and College resident, where she OD's. The body is disposed of either by all present or by one present (with outside help?) who threatens the other(s). Is this the most likely scenario? It may be inconsistent with northsider's story that LS OD'd at a dealer's apt if JR is not in fact a/the dealer.

I think with the info Northsider gave us the dealer is ZO. She OD'd at his place. That is why Northsider said she is in Indy someplace.

JR wouldn't know any place to dispose of a body in Indy being from MI.

Maybe she did leave JR went around the corner and headed to 10th & college. Not sure why he would call DR then but all of that info came from HT anyway.

I like the way you are thinking though. I think we are getting closer to piecing all of this together.
 
From TG's post:
http://www.tonygatto.com/
This leaves room for speculation. Note here that the witness reports being shown "six or so" photos. There are ten POI's. Was she really shown only photos of known POI's whose faces the witness might've seen in news reports?

Qualters does not affirm that any part of the witness' statement is accurate, neither the timing nor "the activity" she reports.


In this line he qualifies his statement. He can't say unequivocally that the two did not cross paths at some point (because he doesn't know where either Lauren or the witness were each minute of the evening). He is very certain, however, that the witness could not have seen Lauren in the stated location at the stated time. Had Lauren been there, she would appear in the area surveillance video at 3:38 a.m., but she does not. That's all that Qualters tells us. He gives no indication that Lauren was with a "mystery man" at any time that night.
http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/22/news.qp-4391232.sto

Can I ask where you are getting what I bolded from? There is no indication at all that there is surveillance video that covers the area where she was reported to be seen.
 
I think with the info Northsider gave us the dealer is ZO. She OD'd at his place. That is why Northsider said she is in Indy someplace.

JR wouldn't know any place to dispose of a body in Indy being from MI.

Maybe she did leave JR went around the corner and headed to 10th & college. Not sure why he would call DR then but all of that info came from HT anyway.

I like the way you are thinking though. I think we are getting closer to piecing all of this together.

Keep in mind that she would be captured on video entering 10th and College if this was the case.
 
I think with the info Northsider gave us the dealer is ZO. She OD'd at his place. That is why Northsider said she is in Indy someplace.

I agree that northsider is pointing at ZO. However, northsider said that he heard about a dealer and speculated that this is ZO. And the stories about OD'ing at the dealer's place may also be speculation.
 
Thought I'd jump in here to note the following:

The name "J R" does not appear in OTIS (Michigan Department of Corrections Offender Tracking Information System***).

The name "D B" does not appear in OTIS.

OTIS would display information about any individual sentenced (including time served or probation) under the jurisdiction of the Michigan Department of Corrections.

I'm not necessarily connecting the names above to the "dealer" described in your posts. I am conceding the above names have been cited in this context by others.

*** OTIS "holds information about all current and past prisoners, parolees & probationers." However, "in 2008, the Michigan Legislature allowed removal of offenders from the website after three years had elapsed from the discharge date. If an offender resumes supervision with the MDOC, all public records will be available on the website until the three years has again elapsed from the discharge date of the most recent MDOC jurisdiction or supervision date."

While this is true, there is an Erich Rosenbaum in the system, who had two charges dismissed. One for marijuana one for cocaine in Oakland county.

http://mdocweb.state.mi.us/OTIS2/otis2profile.aspx?mdocNumber=660004

Do we know if Jay's bday is 10/31/88? Could be using an alias money can buy?!
 
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