IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #23

[mamamia54]

Nice thoughts, but somehow I doubt any of this was a factor, if her fellow students hid her body...I think CYA tops everything for people who would neglect to report a death...if that is what happened.

(On another note, I just refuse to think of these (or any) 21-yr old men as "boys"...but that is just me.)

But, if indeed these young men (I'll call them), are indeed POI's, then we need to see that they would have the same thought process of any offender in this situation.

 

[Gabby66]

Nice thoughts, but somehow I doubt any of this was a factor, if her fellow students hid her body...I think CYA tops everything for people who would neglect to report a death...if that is what happened.

(On another note, I just refuse to think of these (or any) 21-yr old men as "boys"...but that is just me.)

I know that many people classify a "man" by a right of passage which comes with age. IMO there is "legal adulthood" at age 18, but in no way in my mind does that mean that once he turns 18, every "boy" becomes a "man". Just food for thought...

I agree with you completely that Jewish traditions likely didn't have anything to do with how they may have hidden a body. IF these boys really respected their Jewish faith, they would not have hidden a body (if that is indeed what happened).

 

[cluciano63]

But, if indeed these young men (I'll call them), are indeed POI's, then we need to see that they would have the same thought process of any offender in this situation.

Good point. It would be worth considering, if indeed a fellow Jewish person was involved in the disposal of Lauren's body and if their past teachings would affect where and how they left Lauren.

 

[elmorejames]

Snipped by me to save bandwidth.

Since no one else answered: The two names I've seen mentioned {{{rumor alert}}} are DR and ZO.

Not FBI specifically, but just "informants".

Hope this helps.

One thing that strikes me as odd, is that apparently ZO's place was raided by DEA earlier last school year. While these are rumors that were shared in earlier discussions, there has been no media coverage about this. That being said, this is usually how federal cooperation goes. Why would they publicize this if they have thoughts of turning a suspect in to an informant.

This is where it gets confusing... If he is considered and informant ZO would have "protection" from authorities. When I was in college, there was a student we all thought was an informant, and when people purchased exctasy from him they all turned out to be fake. What I'm alluding to is that perhaps ZO was an informant but allowed his friends to continue running the biz, and he was protecting them. This is where the whole punch from to CR for allowing LS to talk to loud at Sports. Giving ZO the benefit of the doubt and he wasn't the dealer, perhaps someone else was supplying the goods and to conceal their identity perhaps LS was informed the goods were from ZO. Bottom line is ZO's name wasn't brought up for no reason. His history and actions have placed him in this saga.

Also, I wonder how ZO is dealing with the fact that his father Dick is ill, and recovering from cancer at the Mayo Clinic. I believe is mother already past away a few years back. It's scary what can happen when a young kid has no supervision and access to a lot of money.

It's amazing what the internet can do, and what you can find just by searching thoroughly. The only issue ZO has had on record was a traffic violations. Zachary Richard needs to stay in his lane and be a good rich white boy!

 

[cspring]

Im not that old-35-and i consider them kids. I just remember how much i didnt know at 20-21-when i thought i knew sooo much! Thats just me-i respaect everyones opinions tho.
Just wanna say AGAIN-i love this group. It is the best 1 by far. I appreciate the dialogue here very much. U guys r very smart and offer great views on so many diff things! Thanks! And i hope everyone has the day off and is enjoying some time with their loved ones!

 

[cluciano63]

Im not that old-35-and i consider them kids. I just remember how much i didnt know at 20-21-when i thought i knew sooo much! Thats just me-i respaect everyones opinions tho.
Just wanna say AGAIN-i love this group. It is the best 1 by far. I appreciate the dialogue here very much. U guys r very smart and offer great views on so many diff things! Thanks! And i hope everyone has the day off and is enjoying some time with their loved ones!

I get frustrated with the "kids" thing because so many of the murderers and criminals we see on this board are 21 or younger and I don't see anyone referring to them as "kids"...Casey was 22 when she allegedly killed Caylee and she was certainly never considered a "kid" by anyone and she is just one high-profile example. I've seen plenty of 18-year olds charged as adults and most of WS agreeing that they should be...so it does bother me that this rich, white group of people seem to slip under the "adult" label...JMO

 

[British]

I get frustrated with the "kids" thing because so many of the murderers and criminals we see on this board are 21 or younger and I don't see anyone referring to them as "kids"...Casey was 22 when she allegedly killed Caylee and she was certainly never considered a "kid" by anyone and she is just one high-profile example. I've seen plenty of 18-year olds charged as adults and most of WS agreeing that they should be...so it does bother me that this rich, white group of people seem to slip under the "adult" label...JMO

I could not agree more. Whoever is responsible for LS's disappearance is undoubtedly a criminal and does not deserve any sympathy. We have no idea who that is, but we know one thing for sure. Only a terrible criminal (s) would make a girl in her 20s disappear like that. Hopefully, whoever is responsible for that will be arrested soon and thrown to jail where they belong.

 

[mamamia54]

The main point here, is that we don't have Lauren. She is somewhere, yet nowhere that we can figure out, or willing to attempt to figure out. While it may be difficult to put ourselves into the shoes of this/these offenders, we need to at least attempt to do so. She wasn't beamed up, she didn't vanish into thin air. In that time of distress what would an offender do? Where would they put her that she would be least likely to be found?

 

[British]

The main point here, is that we don't have Lauren. She is somewhere, yet nowhere that we can figure out, or willing to attempt to figure out. While it may be difficult to put ourselves into the shoes of this/these offenders, we need to at least attempt to do so. She wasn't beamed up, she didn't vanish into thin air. In that time of distress what would an offender do? Where would they put her that she would be least likely to be found?

Hard to know how a criminal mind thinks. But I would not be surprised if they took the body far away, maybe to another state.

 

[mamamia54]

Why are you thinking that she could be in another state? In who's vehicle?

 

[Gabby66]

I get frustrated with the "kids" thing because so many of the murderers and criminals we see on this board are 21 or younger and I don't see anyone referring to them as "kids"...Casey was 22 when she allegedly killed Caylee and she was certainly never considered a "kid" by anyone and she is just one high-profile example. I've seen plenty of 18-year olds charged as adults and most of WS agreeing that they should be...so it does bother me that this rich, white group of people seem to slip under the "adult" label...JMO

I respect your opinion. Just for the record however, Casey Anthony was considered a kid by at least one person - ME. That in no way means that I think ANY of them deserve a break or sympathy! They don't. They know the LEGAL adult age and that whatever they do after that age, has more serious consequences. I just think that until they've lived an "adult" life, with "adult" responsibilities, they are not an adult. Casey is a FINE example of that. It appeared to me that her parents were watching her child, while she was out partying. What responsibilities did she take care of herself? All of that said however, it doesn't excuse the fact that once you are 18, you are defined by law as an adult.

IMO these kids made childish decisions. I've said before that the male brain doesn't fully develop until around age 24-25. These guys are still more impulsive and doing risky things (drugs) that MOST people outgrow as they move on in life. They absolutely still deserve an ADULT consequence, however I do question whether these guys would have made the same presumed decision (hide the body) at age 35 or 40, or if they would have even found themselves in a situation to make that choice in the first place.

 

[Skigirl]

I think there's a difference between being a child and behaving childishly. I don't doubt that this crowd was extremely immature, but the brain doesn't stay in any one state for long - it's true that the frontal lobes aren't fully baked until about 21, but by your late 20s/early 30s, your frontal lobes are already losing volume again. You have more volume in all lobes of your brain as a 21-year-old than you do as a 75-year-old, and nobody would argue that you aren't an adult at 75.

As an aside, a prosecutor asked me once if I could testify that a 12-year-old's brain is "more like an adult than a child's" and I was all, "Uhhhhh, what does that even MEAN? A 12-year-old IS a child and therefore, his/her brain isn't like a child's - it IS a child's."

 

[bloom54]

You have more volume in all lobes of your brain as a 21-year-old than you do as a 75-year-old, and nobody would argue that you aren't an adult at 75.

I beg to differ... during the last year or so of my Mom's life (she died at 88), I really missed having a Mom!! She didn't have dementia, but she sure had lost her ability to make decisions, etc... so I wouldn't have called her an "adult"... :fence:


But really, I do agree with you. I see these young men as boys... simply because they have not yet been tested in the real world. Some of them may remain boys through adulthood... that doesn't mean I don't think they should be held responsible as adults -- they most certainly should!

But when we try to imagine how they would have done something... what thought process they used to get there... it's a mistake to believe that they were thinking as adults, with a mature moral compass, and with mature problem-solving skills. Some a ways back suggested that if it's one of these young men, he may have called his father and gotten help with the resolution of his problem. As distasteful as that feels to me, I wouldn't find it surprising.

added just because it occurred to me:... I do believe there's a bit of entitlement mentality among the very wealthy... think about how T Kennedy resolved Chappaquidic (sp?)... and think about how HE would react if his son called in this scenario...

 

[mamamia54]

Risk Factors These Young People Put Themselves Into

Hiding the body isn't the full issue, it's what happens when the body is eventually discovered. Can they tie it back to the friend? If thats the case you have to assume your friend may give you up accidentally or under pressure.

If you weren't involved in the actual circumstances, and your friend shows up desperate you are taking on some HUGE risks. You need to make decisions not knowing all of the variables: How likely are witnesses? How much evidence can be found? Is there a direct trail to you?

Right now, they are using each others alibies and confusing the investigation. I wonder how long that will last until the weakest link is broken.

 

[mamamia54]

Who do you think the weakest link would be? I'm really interested in hearing some thoughts on this.

 

[Darcyline]

Why are you thinking that she could be in another state? In who's vehicle?

That was actually one of the very first theories I remember reading in this case. The first or second posts may have it? I think at that point we were under the assumption that some of the POIs left almost immediately including JR though. Now people are telling me JR stayed for "weeks" and helped search the entire time? Not sure which is true.

 

[Pedrosmom]

The main point here, is that we don't have Lauren. She is somewhere, yet nowhere that we can figure out, or willing to attempt to figure out. While it may be difficult to put ourselves into the shoes of this/these offenders, we need to at least attempt to do so. She wasn't beamed up, she didn't vanish into thin air. In that time of distress what would an offender do? Where would they put her that she would be least likely to be found?

Let's say a bunch of construction workers took her to Indy, came early on the job and buried her before they poured the concrete. I say they reexamine the white truck guys, their job site and what was done on June 3-4 on that job site because she's not in Bton and I can't think of anything more obvious. Did LE even check out the job site in Indy?

 

[Pedrosmom]

That was actually one of the very first theories I remember reading in this case. The first or second posts may have it? I think at that point we were under the assumption that some of the POIs left almost immediately including JR though. Now people are telling me JR stayed for "weeks" and helped search the entire time? Not sure which is true.

JR took off. I believe I read that his dad picked him up.

 

[Pedrosmom]

Not only is this their new "normal", but who can really define that for them anyway? There's no rule book on how to handle this and frankly, I'd guess that we'd all handle it in different ways. Our own internal structure will only allow us to each do so much. I admire CS's "fire", yet I believe that other parents may respond by simply shutting down, in a very depressed, almost vegetative state. Does that mean they are less wanting of finding answers and of course, their daughter? NO, but I simply think that when faced with this situation, some people couldn't even function. The Spierers have strength beyond strength.

Take Beth Holloway for example. They never found Natalie. Her life crumbled. Divorced for a second time. Never giving up hope that they will find a piece (sorry to sound gross) of her daughter that she can take home and put to rest. A grave, a place of solace, a place to go and pray knowing that they are in a better place. I have a daughter going to college next year. I would never give up, never, until the day I die.

Not knowing where your child is has got to be a grief worse than death itself. My hopes and prayers are with the Spierers. You will find Lauren. She is somewhere. Don't give up.

 

[Pedrosmom]

Why are you thinking that she could be in another state? In who's vehicle?

I doubt any of those kids would take that risk. If she was, I say bring in the cars and the cadaver dogs. There's your answer.