IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #23

[Walker]

I'd like to know three simple things...


3) "Walker" suggests earlier that in would take a professional or organized crime member to pull of something like that... Even a cop who knows the maps of security cameras in his backyard or all of Bloomington, let alone a college kid would be able to pull of some ninja like performance and make a 20 year old girl just straight up disappear and not show up on camera...

What I meant was specifically inside the bar. Say CR's drink was spiked, maybe LS's, too. Or maybe she drank some of his drink. To then rob them would take knowing how to avoid the bar cameras (and some places have quite a lot) at least at crucial moments and also how to avoid making a scene in public. They would need to use the right drug to incapacitate CR but not cause him or LS to have an immediate medical crisis, which would have attracted attention. Robbing them inside the bar would take skill and planning. Just knowing that CR may have been carrying a lot of cash would have taken serious surveillance. That's why I say that they would have to be professionals.

 

[elmorejames]

whoever said he was to be carrying a lot of cash..? and what's a lot of cash, 500, 5000, 10,000??? we do know college networks extend and crossover. was there to be a significant drug deal between students that night, maybe at Smallwood that was to get a bulk summer's amount of supplies to take back home?

 

[jjenny]

A lot of cash? Where does this even come from? I've seen zero info to suggest he was carrying a lot of cash. He didn't complain about being robbed or losing his cash.

 

[mrsu]

I strongly believe the answer lies with JR.

I don't really feel that CR is guilty of anything other than being too drunk and running his mouth probably to JW's friends which got him punched. I would totally believe he doesn't remember anything. I'm not sure I would refer to it as amnesia. I have a friend that every time we go out, he drinks too much hard liquor. He gets drunk and belligerent and picks fights with anyone just to be an *advertiser censored*....the bartender, his wife, a random person on the dance floor. Nobody wants to go out with him anymore because it's always such a drama. The worst thing is that he says very shocking, sometimes hurtful things, and does not remember anything in the morning. There have also been a few times when we have taken him home and put him to bed and the rest of us continued to have fun by the campfire etc., drinking responsibly. What I'm getting at is I think it's entirely possible that CR just blacked out and really doesn't remember what went on. Truthfully, I'm not sure what he could be lying about? We know he got punched...verified by video. We know that Lauren and him were captured walking back to his place...verified by video. We know they showed up to the apt...verified by MB. And we know she made her way to JR's apt...verified by JR admitting he was the last one to see her. So...I really don't understand what her parents think he is not truthful about?? They stated they don't believe Lauren escorted him home...well, it's captured on video that she did. Whether she was physically helping him is all semantics, IMO. Perhaps she just wanted to make sure he got home and she was in just as bad of a condition as he was....probably more likely.

Not sure about the 4:15 phone call. I think it's entirely possible that something happened to Lauren. JR attempts to call DR as he knows that he is sober. DR doesn't answer. JR panics and gets rid of her, then concocts the story that it was Lauren who called DR.

What I don't understand is if this is what happened, why not just call 911? I mean that is just basic common sense.

I'm curious about the ping. I hadn't heard about it. Is this rumor? Do we know what time the ping was??

 

[Kiln Wood]

I think a mother of any status will believe their child, protect their child, and never admit their child could be involved in the death of another person whether an accident or especially murder and of course their child is always framed by LE.

With the possible exception of the mother of Daniel Procter (sp?) whom I just read about for the first time Wednesday evening of the WS thread for the missing Amy Patterson?

 

[Darcyline]

The only amount of cash I could see professionals caring about would be bulk drug cash which could be 10s of thousands. I just...I don't see CR being capable of doing transactions like that. I just don't.
I would believe he might have had 300-1000 which is typical for a college night drug fest and maybe tempting to most criminals (or, heck, even normal folk) but not professionals.

 

[JeannieC]

With the possible exception of the mother of Daniel Procter (sp?) whom I just read about for the first time Wednesday evening of the WS thread for the missing Amy Patterson?

I'll have to check that out. Thanks

 

[Carmen101]

Just got caught up on the last several pages of posts.

Concerning the lengthy discussion on the white truck:
There does seem to be a solid black line on the passenger side of the truck bed. That solid black line is interrupted by an object in the other photo.
Is it possible that there are two white trucks that are so similar that LE assumed that they were looking at only one truck?
I believe it would be worthwhile to show the images of the solid black line and the interrupted black line to LE.

 

[Walker]

If they were obviously intoxicated, the bar management would not have allowed them in. And, their total stay was only about 45 minutes. Whatever caused both of them to become severely incapacitated must have been consumed at the bar. "Making their way along" seems to suggest that both LS and CR were similarly impaired. The problem seems to have started at the bar.

 

[Carmen101]

What about this scenario?

Maybe CR was not doing drugs that evening. Maybe HT was with AB, and ZO happened to be with them.
CR and LS get to SW, HT sees LS and is upset by how out of it she is. ZO, being the fighter, punches CR for not taking better care of LS.
CR takes off with LS. She is stumbling and barefoot, so he puts her over his shoulder when they get to the gravel part of the alley and she drops her keys and little purse.
OK, I'm tired. That's all I have so far.
Questions to consider:
Did CR do anything with or to LS when they reached his apt.?
Did she stay at CR/MB's for a while and then proceed to JR's?
Is JR protecting someone? If he is, I don't think it is CR or MB. I don't know why.

 

[Darcyline]

They definitely could have been slipped something, but there are other possibilities other than professional hit. You can get plenty messed up in 45 minutes. Most drugs are pretty fast acting (within five minutes) and you can get slammed very quickly if you are doing shots or mixed drinks. I doubt either was starting at zero either. Sober enough to get into a bar doesn't mean hasn't had anything all night.
And, there is also the possibility that someone slipped something into their drinks to be a jerk and mess with one or both of them. The only random slipping stuff in drinks moments I saw were just people "messing" with each other like it is some sort of joke or to see what happened. Well, other than date rape uses of course.

Just keeping options open and looking at all possibilities. I am one of those people who thinks that they were somewhat functional after the bar though if they were able to walk to Smallwood and walk to 5 North even if the walking was drunken or they fell/stumbled. Crashes can come hard and suddenly though.

 

[sueC]

That's a good question. I only see 5 North from the gravel lot and there are no cars back there. Does that mean there is no parking in the gravel lot or it just happened to be empty at the time the photo was taken? I am assuming that the parking for 5 North is in front of the building and the rear faces the gravel lot. Are we sure that the front of the building has no cameras? What is adjacent to 5 North on the front? Are there cameras there? Check me if I'm wrong but it appears there are 2 entrances to 5 North and LS/CR were headed toward the back entrance. If someone were to leave in a car that night, would it be possible to leave unnoticed by any camera on the front side of the townhomes? I don't see any pics from the front side of 5 North, unless I am missing something. If there are no cameras, easily they could have taken her out the front. That is not to say I believe that is the way she left, just wondering if that was covered.

Hi, as far as I know there aren't any back entrances to 5 North. Each apt has an entry door on 11th St. Here's a pic of front and side of bldg- JR's apt is the 5 BR, 4 story on the end (west side). Also posting JR's floor plan- 1st floor. There were no cameras at 5 North when LS disappeared, but I think someone posted that they were installing them this summer? I might be wrong!

 

[sv614]

If they were obviously intoxicated, the bar management would not have allowed them in. And, their total stay was only about 45 minutes. Whatever caused both of them to become severely incapacitated must have been consumed at the bar. "Making their way along" seems to suggest that both LS and CR were similarly impaired. The problem seems to have started at the bar.

I think you're giving the employees at Kilroy's a little too much credit. "Bar management" did not let them in - the bouncers did. It's a raucous college bar and these guys see wasted young people as long as their eyes are open on the job. If they didn't let drunk people in, they'd probably be turning away half their revenue.

I'm not saying they sat at the bar and played Scrabble, no; they probably knocked back a few, perhaps did some bumps of cocaine along the way, maybe even popped a Xanax or Klonopin. That behavior really isn't that uncommon and as much as we may frown upon it it is accepted and often encouraged amongst college students.

I notice you speculate about what could have possibly gotten them so messed up but I think the answer is that they more or less just wanted and chose to get really messed up that night.

 

[mrsu]

Respectfully, I think the notion that someone slipped something in their drinks is off base. Talk amongst town has suggested that Lauren was heard that he had done Xanax and was wasted, etc. Reports have also suggested that they were kicked out of the bar. This could be true given they only stayed at the bar for 45 mins. Maybe they were forced to leave, and that was when Lauren forgot about her phone and shoes?

 

[Tr.]

However, I find nothing "ridiculous" about CR's assertion of memory loss if he was concussed (by a punch).

If CR truly suffered a concussion from the assault then he would have likely suffered other symptoms of such a condition in addition to and more likely than memory loss such as:
- nausea/vomiting
- dizziness
- vertigo and balance
- headache/ blurred vision
- fatigue
- inability to focus
- noticeable behavioral changes

Any or all of these things would / could have inhibited his ability to go about normal daily activities for at least a couple of days, yet he was seen out and about the next day by more than one person.

A true concussion with mild traumatic brain injury enough to cause memory loss will put most people in bed for a day or three and have lingering effects.

Imo if the memory loss is real then it must be the result of drug use and Salzmann is just another BS lawyer for saying otherwise. He has done as much to hinder the progress of this case as anyone by covering for his clients' drug abuse instead of getting down to what really happened. FH

 

[akh]

Since speculation seems to be the order of the day, maybe the idea of LS and CR making their way down the alley needs to be rethought? Maybe she wasn't 'with' him or 'helping' him so much as 'after' him because he had something of her's or some other reason. Maybe she was angry with him?

And there's been a lot of people asking about why MB or especially JR would let a drunk/vulnerable girl just walk out into the night. Well, didn't these 'friends' at Smallwood do essentially the same thing (after the CR altercation)?

 

[sueC]

I strongly believe the answer lies with JR.

Not sure about the 4:15 phone call. I think it's entirely possible that something happened to Lauren. JR attempts to call DR as he knows that he is sober. DR doesn't answer. JR panics and gets rid of her, then concocts the story that it was Lauren who called DR.

What I don't understand is if this is what happened, why not just call 911? I mean that is just basic common sense.

I'm curious about the ping. I hadn't heard about it. Is this rumor? Do we know what time the ping was??

(Respectfully snipped)

The 4:15 phone call: wasn't it reported that it was made from JR's LAND line? And we debated about whether kids even have land lines now? I think that was a reporting error, and it was JR's cell phone.

A few days ago someone posted the Indiana law regarding death due to an overdose. I think the person supplying the drugs could be charged with manslaughter? (Possibly murder?) Can't remember the maximum sentence...10-20 years? That could be the reason he/they didn't call 911, if she ODed in his apt.

Re: the "ping". I can't remember where that came from...maybe it was a rumor? Does anyone know? Allegedly JR's phone pinged in Martinsville around 4 am. Can't find it in MSM.

 

[Walker]

I think you're giving the employees at Kilroy's a little too much credit. "Bar management" did not let them in - the bouncers did. It's a raucous college bar and these guys see wasted young people as long as their eyes are open on the job. If they didn't let drunk people in, they'd probably be turning away half their revenue.

I see your point. But what about their liability? In NYS, the management can be sued for letting someone drive away drunk. They cannot legally serve people who are obviously intoxicated.
LS and CR were probably not stumbling around or falling on the floor.

I'm not saying they sat at the bar and played Scrabble, no; they probably knocked back a few, perhaps did some bumps of cocaine along the way, maybe even popped a Xanax or Klonopin. That behavior really isn't that uncommon and as much as we may frown upon it it is accepted and often encouraged amongst college students.

Except for that one night and HT's comments, LS doesn't seem to have a history of drug abuse. And it's not like people on other boards have been showing great restraint in what they say. Where are the tales about all the other times that she supposedly gulped down 5 Xanax or whatever? What people don't say is sometimes a clue.

I notice you speculate about what could have possibly gotten them so messed up but I think the answer is that they more or less just wanted and chose to get really messed up that night.

That would make it easier for them to be robbed. But were they robbed? That's the question. If something of value were taken, the altercation may have resulted from some person's anger at CR for "letting" it be stolen. And who may have robbed them?

 

[Tr.]

What about this scenario?

Maybe CR was not doing drugs that evening. Maybe HT was with AB, and ZO happened to be with them.
CR and LS get to SW, HT sees LS and is upset by how out of it she is. ZO, being the fighter, punches CR for not taking better care of LS.
CR takes off with LS. She is stumbling and barefoot, so he puts her over his shoulder when they get to the gravel part of the alley and she drops her keys and little purse.
OK, I'm tired. That's all I have so far.
Questions to consider:
Did CR do anything with or to LS when they reached his apt.?
Did she stay at CR/MB's for a while and then proceed to JR's?
Is JR protecting someone? If he is, I don't think it is CR or MB. I don't know why.

Interesting scenario..so maybe HT sent AB/ZO to find LS after the altercation at SW. In the mean time LS leaves CR/MB knocks on JR's door and is told the party supplies are all gone. She stumbles out the door and makes her way back towards SW but crashes first. AB/ZO are in wait and AB picks her up with a few kind words per witness "Can I take you home"? Then what? Did he take her to a waiting vehicle?
Did a second assault occur? Could she have died during that assault?
I think it's possible.
AB/ZO then tell HT that LS OD'd. The cover-up begins there. HT believes it and calls JR to ask him how much stuff he gave to LS. He freaks and tries to call DR to see wtf is going on. HT orchestrates a time-line that helps conceal AB's and consequently her own involvement while leaving JR to believe he's killed someone by supplying them with drugs. HT believing the whole OD story herself convinces JR that AB/ZO did him a favor by dumping LS.

Maybe she actually died during the course of a sexual assault. Covering her mouth to keep her from screaming would have easily been enough to suffocate her in her condition.
So where to look for LS? Maybe HT thought they were going to dump LS somewhere that she'd be found and make it look like a stranger abduction. But maybe they choose water instead because water gets rid of all dna evidence and at least one of them has something to hide that HT doesn't know about.

 

[Walker]

Respectfully, I think the notion that someone slipped something in their drinks is off base.

But it's possible.

It happens a lot. Around colleges, people think it's funny. But it could also have been motivated by wanting to rob them.

Talk amongst town has suggested that Lauren was heard that he had done Xanax and was wasted, etc. Reports have also suggested that they were kicked out of the bar. This could be true given they only stayed at the bar for 45 mins. Maybe they were forced to leave, and that was when Lauren forgot about her phone and shoes?

So many rumors, so few facts.