IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #27

[akh]

Because it's mostly a community of students and student-age kids. They live close together and see each other in passing, at parties, at Kilorys, etc.

This is also why I said it wouldn't surprise me for JR's story to be true that he'd let her leave his place in the state she was likely in. Of course that assumes she was in any condition to walk in the first place, but if she was, him letting her leave on her own seems like the kind of thing they've all probably done many times before. I can't imagine any of them, including LS, feeling insecure in that area.

Now in hindsight, assuming he's not involved in her disappearance, he probably thinks it's the worst decision he's ever made in his life. But I bet prior to this seeing someone, male or female, leaving an apartment alone in something less than a sober condition was simply the norm for this group in that area.

 

[Jupiter812]

The condition she was described in (falling down, CR having to carry her) she could have gone with anyone "willingly" because she didn't appear to be in the control of her facilities. But since her phone was gone, and assuming she left JR, I think stranger abduction becomes much more likely than her meeting someone she knew, since that someone had no way of knowing when she was going to leave JR's.

She could have left JR's 10 minutes after she went in. JR's timeline is "vulnerable."

Maybe the second phone call to mystery receiver knew her whereabouts.

And lastly, people who prey on others can be scarily patient.

 

[Jupiter812]

This is also why I said it wouldn't surprise me for JR's story to be true that he'd let her leave his place in the state she was likely in. Of course that assumes she was in any condition to walk in the first place, but if she was, him letting her leave on her own seems like the kind of thing they've all probably done many times before. I can't imagine any of them, including LS, feeling insecure in that area.

Now in hindsight, assuming he's not involved in her disappearance, he probably thinks it's the worst decision he's ever made in his life. But I bet prior to this seeing someone, male or female, leaving an apartment alone in something less than a sober condition was simply the norm for this group in that area.

Good tie in.

I wonder how wasted he was. That would be a sickening feeling to live with.

 

[imkeylime]

This is also why I said it wouldn't surprise me for JR's story to be true that he'd let her leave his place in the state she was likely in. Of course that assumes she was in any condition to walk in the first place, but if she was, him letting her leave on her own seems like the kind of thing they've all probably done many times before. I can't imagine any of them, including LS, feeling insecure in that area.

Now in hindsight, assuming he's not involved in her disappearance, he probably thinks it's the worst decision he's ever made in his life. But I bet prior to this seeing someone, male or female, leaving an apartment alone in something less than a sober condition was simply the norm for this group in that area.

This is good insight. I'd like to add that for as much as I complain about girls walking alone, they often want to. IDK if it's an issue of independence or even rebellion, but it happens. If she could walk, she may have insisted upon doing so. Still not sure about the if, though ...

 

[Ros]

Is your impression that it was a friend that raped/killed her? or a random guy off the street? or someone who falls somewhere in the middle (acquaintance?)

I happen to agree with you...I think someone hurt her and none of this was an "accident."

Side note: An article someone posted claimed a homeless man heard a woman scream (too lazy to go back and quote it)...Around the time Lauren was last seen....what was THAT about?!? I don't think that is something someone would lie about, though maybe it wasn't her.

Here's a link to some comments on a Herald Times article describing what that was about:
http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/comments/cmt.php?cmtus=chickjustin

According to ChickJustin, Bob Z. (who is an editor or reporter for the HT), took a walk with a homeless man known as Tallboy, who allegedly heard a scream and also saw Lauren leave JR's via an alley at about 4:30 a.m. Tallboy died soon afterwards.

ChickJustin is known both for her passion for justice and for her struggle with mental illness.

 

[AbbeyR]

I transcribed part of the Lohud timeline because I think it's important and clears up some of the speculation we've had about the alley, lost keys, mystery man, etc. [This part starts after they describe the fight where ZO punches CR in the face]

SC: Corey and Lauren took the elevator down to the lobby and um, Lauren came stumbling out of the elevator. So Corey was the one who got punched, but Lauren was the one who was – at least in the video – who needed all the help. This was one thing that seemed to contradict the version that's given by CR and his lawyer. Corey claims he suffered short amnesia and that he doesn't even remember what happened. That 15 minutes before the fight, the punch and for the rest of the evening he has no memory of that. So they headed out together, they walked up the street and sat down along the way on a staircase.

MC: And that's where we have a female witness who was leaving, uh, visiting a boy. She's not a college student, she's a little bit older. And she observed the young girl, which we now know to be Lauren, to tip over, while she was sitting on the top step, and hit her head on the concrete. And the boy was sitting a step or two below her.

BD:: And it was loud enough to for her to hear--

MC: You could hear the thud

BD: The thud of her head, yeah.

SC: So Lauren and Corey headed up an alleyway from there and Lauren is seen falling face first to the ground, hitting her head. She didn't even put up her hands to block herself. Corey helped her to her feet and then just a few steps later she crumbled again to the ground. And again, Corey helps her up and they head up the street. So Lauren and Corey headed up an alleyway from there and head into an apartment building at Tenth and College and knock on the door of four girls who were partying with them earlier in the night, but no one's home.

MC: A minute later, the door opening and them going back down and him helping her with that, kinda slung across his back.

SC: So, going down the stairs. Going down, he slings her—her puts her...?

MC: He has her arms like this in front of him and he's bent over like this and she's kinda dangling off his back [demonstrates]

SC: But she's... she's moving though. She's not unconscious.

MC: Oh no, she's – she was alive and well. I mean, I don't know how well, but...she was alive.

SC: She has another seat. She sits down for about a minute. But at that point she – she leaves her keys – she drops her keys and an ID card and Corey helped her up the street to his apartment.

[The rest of the story comes from the POI's account of the night, which we already know]

*SC = the reporter. MC and BD = investigators

From: "New Details on Lauren Spierer's Path" http://www.lohud.com/flash/spierer/index.html

 

[Ros]

Nice. There seems to be several points mentioned here that are coming out for the first time. 2 phone calls placed at 415, more detail on the journey from Smallwood to 5 North via 10th and College, JR watching her leave specifically from his 2nd floor balcony, a lot more insight in to her state as she was walking and other possible injuries she may have suffered. Gonna need several listens of this to soak it all in.

I was looking over the posts on the PT board now that new information has been made public. The same post that alleged that JR did not have a car or access to a car also states that there was a 4:15 call to a friend with a car, asking him to come get LS. Assumed this was a call to DR, but now I am not so sure.

 

[akh]

SC: She has another seat. She sits down for about a minute. But at that point she – she leaves her keys – she drops her keys and an ID card and Corey helped her up the street to his apartment.

Is this info from the video... or another witness... ??

And as I said in another post, after hearing how CR was carrying her doesn't that tie in with the bar employee witness whose time doesn't APPEAR to fit the timeline, and the mystery man?

Why is everyone assuming CR and LS went to the apartment directly after losing keys, etc? Why couldn't they have went to the place the bar employee saw them at exactly the time this person says it was? Doesn't that not only still fit in the timeline but it also shortens the time at the apartments that had to be accounted for to get to 4:30AM? And adds credibility to that witnesses account. The only question would be whether they were mistaken about CR's description (assuming we heard correctly about the description), or possibly there's an additional person they met up with or took over carrying her?

I've been fairly accepting of the idea that they went directly to MB/CR's apartment. But it appears to me that didn't have to be the case at all. Now, what exactly that changes might mean nothing... but it would tie up a loose end and maybe belongs in an alternate timeline.

It seems to me, based on what we know, there's no way to say they went directly to the apartment. Unless there's another witness to them coming thru the alley and going to the door then only CR and LS could be a source to say they went directly there. Obviously, LS can't be a source and CR is claiming memory loss.

And why the secrecy about this 2nd phone call? If the public can know about details with the 1 call, why not this second call?

Of course maybe I'm confused about some already confirmed details.

 

[bx2]

SC: So Lauren and Corey headed up an alleyway from there and Lauren is seen falling face first to the ground, hitting her head. She didn't even put up her hands to block herself. Corey helped her to her feet and then just a few steps later she crumbled again to the ground. And again, Corey helps her up and they head up the street. So Lauren and Corey headed up an alleyway from there and...

Above is where I mentioned that they edited the same soundbite in 2 spots (exact quote even with the "um" regarding heading up the alleyway). If you listen close you can hear the cut after the 2nd mention of alleyway before the narration continues on. Its not that big a deal except 2 alley mentions make it confusing and the sloppy job make me skeptical of the rest of the reporting.

head into an apartment building at Tenth and College and knock on the door of four girls who were partying with them earlier in the night, but no one's home.

Something isn't sitting right here. I don't understand why there would be no mention of this on the police timeline. All of the apartments that this could refer to have cameras on the entrances (10th and College, Tenth and College Village, Morton Mansions). All of these properties are owned by the same company, it seems unlikely that LE wouldn't have known about it. I just don't understand why they omit this. Also, how possibly does reporter know whose door they knocked on unless CR provided this info?

MC: A minute later, the door opening and them going back down and him helping her with that, kinda slung across his back.

SC: So, going down the stairs. Going down, he slings her—her puts her...?

MC: He has her arms like this in front of him and he's bent over like this and she's kinda dangling off his back [demonstrates]

SC: But she's... she's moving though. She's not unconscious.

MC: Oh no, she's – she was alive and well. I mean, I don't know how well, but...she was alive.

Again with the video cuts. The viewer is made to think that they are just telling you the story of what happened, but in reality we have no idea what they are providing an answer to. For all we know, they could be responding to: what did the mystery witness describe to Tony Gatto

SC: She has another seat. She sits down for about a minute. But at that point she – she leaves her keys – she drops her keys and an ID card and Corey helped her up the street to his apartment.

Is this info from the video... or another witness... ??

Exactly what I asked the other day. Either CR has provided some kind of exclusive with this detail, SC has uncovered a bombshell mystery witness, or he is filling in the viewer on where her keys were found via conjecture.

Why is everyone assuming CR and LS went to the apartment directly after losing keys, etc? [/I]Why couldn't they have went to the place the bar employee saw them at exactly the time this person says it was? Doesn't that not only still fit in the timeline but it also shortens the time at the apartments that had to be accounted for to get to 4:30AM? And adds credibility to that witnesses account. The only question would be whether they were mistaken about CR's description (assuming we heard correctly about the description), or possibly there's an additional person they met up with or took over carrying her?

The witness supposedly saw her slung over the shoulder on the SE corner of the 10th and College apts. Lost keys/last vid is on the NW corner of that complex. To get back to the SE corner and then to 5 North without being on video again would be extremely unlikely. It seems much more likely that there is a time discrepancy in the account and it was before they entered the alley.

And why the secrecy about this 2nd phone call? If the public can know about details with the 1 call, why not this second call?

Of course maybe I'm confused about some already confirmed details.

After thinking about this a bit, I thought it would make perfect sense if the other call was to her own phone. I'm not sure why the actual answer is being withheld, but we went a full year without even knowing there was a 2nd call at all so who knows.

 

[cluciano63]

What makes me sad is that it seems as though a lot of different people seem to have seen Lauren in a state of confusion, at the very least, and no one seems to have come forward to take charge and make sure she got home and to bed safely. JMO, it is just the way it appears to me.

 

[akh]

What makes me sad is that it seems as though a lot of different people seem to have seen Lauren in a state of confusion, at the very least, and no one seems to have come forward to take charge and make sure she got home and to bed safely. JMO, it is just the way it appears to me.

Take the altercation at Smallwood, and the punch, out of the equation and would her getting back to her apartment for the night been exactly what would've happened?

 

[Ros]

Something isn't sitting right here. I don't understand why there would be no mention of this on the police timeline. All of the apartments that this could refer to have cameras on the entrances (10th and College, Tenth and College Village, Morton Mansions). All of these properties are owned by the same company, it seems unlikely that LE wouldn't have known about it. I just don't understand why they omit this. Also, how possibly does reporter know whose door they knocked on unless CR provided this info?

I was assuming that this information came from the older mystery witness, whose testimony was not corroborated by video. Are there no rental houses along the way that might have been broken up into student housing? Where are there steps along the route?


Also, as I recall, TG's mystery witness (the 3:38 a.m. person) said that the person who slung LS over his shoulder was NOT CR. Now we are told that it was CR after all. How do they know that?

 

[imkeylime]

... It seems to me, based on what we know, there's no way to say they went directly to the apartment. Unless there's another witness to them coming thru the alley and going to the door then only CR and LS could be a source to say they went directly there. Obviously, LS can't be a source and CR is claiming memory loss.

And why the secrecy about this 2nd phone call? If the public can know about details with the 1 call, why not this second call?

Of course maybe I'm confused about some already confirmed details.

Since LS' scent was allegedly lost at the gravel lot, I'd "guess" they made a stop there. Do we really know what time MB reported them back at 5 North, anyway? What if LS had a long QT attack, CR freaked, and he left her to get help? Worst case scenario: She was gone when he got back. Gone, as in deceased, or gone, as in not where he left her.

It seems that CR and MB both submitted DNA. I'm curious why CR would do that if he has no recollection of what happened that night. Seriously, what if he had sex with an LS who was unable to say "no," and she was later found deceased? It's interesting that a lawyer would go along with him submitting DNA if he remembers nothing. JMO.

 

[Jacobite]

Someone seems to not be telling the truth. Is it the dogs? I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!
IDS says BPD brought them out the next day. That is certainly timely. BIG PROBLEM!!!

 

[Jupiter812]

Since LS' scent was allegedly lost at the gravel lot, I'd "guess" they made a stop there. Do we really know what time MB reported them back at 5 North, anyway? What if LS had a long QT attack, CR freaked, and he left her to get help? Worst case scenario: She was gone when he got back. Gone, as in deceased, or gone, as in not where he left her.

It seems that CR and MB both submitted DNA. I'm curious why CR would do that if he has no recollection of what happened that night. Seriously, what if he had sex with an LS who was unable to say "no," and she was later found deceased? It's interesting that a lawyer would go along with him submitting DNA if he remembers nothing. JMO.

Keylime, that is a good point and great question. The only sensible answer is he could submit it if a) he remembered and b) he knew he was safe. I suppose if a few people combined were with him all night they could, ostensibly, tell him, "No you didn't have sex with her."

The description in your first paragraph makes me wonder: What is the likelihood that ZO and his three friends would simply let CR leave w/Lauren and not even attempt to follow them at any point in the what, 15 minutes to arrive at 5 North? I just don't see that happening, ya know? Punch him then return to whatever they were doing?

 

[Jupiter812]

<Snipped>

The witness supposedly saw her slung over the shoulder on the SE corner of the 10th and College apts. Lost keys/last vid is on the NW corner of that complex. To get back to the SE corner and then to 5 North without being on video again would be extremely unlikely. It seems much more likely that there is a time discrepancy in the account and it was before they entered the alley.

<Snipped>

I haven't thought this through as carefully as you, and I'm on the run, but some of this is starting to coincide with Qualters' stumbling reply at the presser when he attempted to answer the reporter's question about the witness who saw the blonde being carried at 10th and College. He never directly refuted it; he did imply there was a video/time stamp discrepancy.

 

[Jupiter812]

Maybe there IS videotape evidence that we are not aware of, folks.

 

[AbbeyR]

The witness supposedly saw her slung over the shoulder on the SE corner of the 10th and College apts. Lost keys/last vid is on the NW corner of that complex. To get back to the SE corner and then to 5 North without being on video again would be extremely unlikely. It seems much more likely that there is a time discrepancy in the account and it was before they entered the alley.

Yes, that's what I assumed. And I agree with Jupiter - LE never totally dismissed the witness, only implied that there was no corroborating evidence at the particular time described. That's why it sounded like such an evasive answer.

I also agree that we just don't know what video or witnesses LE or the investigators have. I do not think that SC would make up details like Lauren sitting on the ground for about a minute, or the part where they come out of the apartment just to fill in the blanks. These accounts must come from a witness or video. JMO

 

[Jacobite]

Keylime, that is a good point and great question. The only sensible answer is he could submit it if a) he remembered and b) he knew he was safe. I suppose if a few people combined were with him all night they could, ostensibly, tell him, "No you didn't have sex with her."

The description in your first paragraph makes me wonder: What is the likelihood that ZO and his three friends would simply let CR leave w/Lauren and not even attempt to follow them at any point in the what, 15 minutes to arrive at 5 North? I just don't see that happening, ya know? Punch him then return to whatever they were doing?

I'd think one more lake needs searched. The one connected to the POI. That is Lake Clearwater at Clearwater Pointe in Indianapolis off 82nd Street. See if these guys sank Lauren Spierer there.

 

[imkeylime]

Keylime, that is a good point and great question. The only sensible answer is he could submit it if a) he remembered and b) he knew he was safe. I suppose if a few people combined were with him all night they could, ostensibly, tell him, "No you didn't have sex with her."

The description in your first paragraph makes me wonder: What is the likelihood that ZO and his three friends would simply let CR leave w/Lauren and not even attempt to follow them at any point in the what, 15 minutes to arrive at 5 North? I just don't see that happening, ya know? Punch him then return to whatever they were doing?

Thanks ... it strikes me as strange. Re b): If CR's memory loss is legit (doubtful), perhaps there wasn't much time between when he arrived at 5 North (per MB) and the time he and LS were caught on camera. Or maybe someone else saw them. ???

That's an equally good point about ZO and company, especially since ZO lived in that area. I always thought that word about the fight might have reached JW sooner vs. later. Maybe it did, which is why he was concerned when he couldn't reach LS the next day?