IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #27

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From the graphic description of the PI's of Lauren's condition, she did not walk anywhere from JR's. I've never believed that, and these new details readily support that. I remember early on that LE said something happened after CR and LS exited the alley. But we didn't know what. But because of the purse and keys... it seemed very likely that she fell down. They said she fell face first and without putting her hands out. This means that someone witnessed this. (and Not CR, he has amnesia). And not the guy who picked up the keys, he didn't see anything. Someone else saw that.

1 hr later she would not be improved. There are now many reasons to doubt JR's story. And because of this, stranger abduction becomes much less likely.

I have spent several posts myself detailing just how unlikely it is (nearly impossible) that this was a stranger abduction case. I appreciate your perspective VV! Nice posts.

I will post my current theory (for what it's worth) as soon as I get a chance. Though not alot has changed from my perspective and my working theory, if anything my theory has been reaffirmed by the new info release.
 
She later would drop her keys and student ID card before the two crossed a rocky lot to his apartment. “It was a combination of her staggering, him pulling and carrying her,” investigator Mike Ciravolo said.

"...him pulling and carrying her..." across the rocky lot.

This one word, "pulling" is what bothers me more than anything else in the new article. It reveals a caveman-like behavior of someone who doesn't care about the condition of another human being and someone with a goal other than seeing to her safely.

I don't see him changing his designs on her once he gets his prize into his man cave, on the contrary.
 
Very sad morning. Sending hugs to the Spierers and peace to Lauren, wherever she is.

The thing that surprised me most about the new article was the PI's attitude about JW. I didn't expect that, based on earlier interviews with CS and RS. And I've got to say it: CR infuriates me (putting it politely). Who does that?
 
I have to admit: The description JR gives of Lauren mistaking an iPod for a cell phone is a believable detail. Most of the rest of the stuff he says still sounds unbelievable.
 
... Hard to believe it's been a year.

Wishing the Spierers and Lauren's friends lots of love and strength today.
 
What struck me is that JR said she had her Smallwood card key and her fake ID when she arrived at his place. Where and when were those things found? Or were they found? The key that AA's friend put on a railing was not a card key. There was a rumor that someone found a man's wallet containing her fake ID, but I don't think that was ever officially confirmed.

This detail stood out to me too.

She wasn't locked out of Smallwood.

Also, did she have pockets? How was she even carrying all of these things that were lost along the way, I wonder.

I think the details about the keys, ID etc. have probably gotten mixed up in some of the earlier reports. It's hard to know what was missing and what was found -- and where.

There also seem to be a few different versions of MB's story. Did she ask him to go party, did she leave while he was putting CR to bed? Did he take her over to JR's?...
 
I've been waiting 11 months to hear what that scuffle at Smallwood was all about. It seemed to be one of the key pieces. And hearing the PI's detailed explanation it totally changed the picture quite a bit. All along even though CR was claiming amnesia, he was simultaneously making it look like he was the victim, he was really out of it and LS helped him home. When in reality, even after being clocked, LS was having trouble standing up. That is a radically different picture and one that that I suspected because of her keys and purse. There certainly are still unanswered questions about this altercation. The most important one is why they let CR leave with LS in such condition.

I agree. CR was down. ZO has three companions. CR is not in great shape, not much better than LS. What would it have taken for the four guys to have kept CR from leaving with LS. If they thought that she was so out of it that she could not give consent or that she needed medical attention, they could have stopped him from leaving with her. Maybe she convinced them she wanted to leave with him, but that's hard to believe.
 
I have to admit: The description JR gives of Lauren mistaking an iPod for a cell phone is a believable detail. Most of the rest of the stuff he says still sounds unbelievable.

He said she was starting to get a black eye. That sounded believable too.
 
And we still don't really know if JR had a house guest that weekend....

:banghead:
 
This is a far-out thought...but what if LS did leave JRs and headed towards College (but because she was so messed up) she THOUGHT she was taking her normal route towards Smallwood (which we know was to go left/south onto Morton)...but instead she mistakenly took a left/north onto College, and traveled away from Smallwood.

I wonder if LE examined videos from businesses on College north of 11th.

I know it's a shot in the dark...but I'm reminded of a time back in my early 20s when a bunch of us were out on a houseboat for a weekend of revelry at a lake. One night the houseboat was tied up to land, but a friend walked out of the boats restroom and out the back of the boat into the water (he thought he was stepping off the front of the boat onto dry land.) He got out of the water ok and was only wet and embarrassed.

Just thinking about that and how our orientation/sense of direction can get distorted when we have had too much to drink, etc.
 
MB and Lauren helping CR into bed

MB's statements are inconsistent with what PI's have revealed. Just moments before CR had to carry LS on his back because she was not capable of walking or being supported to walk. Impossible then that she is "helping" to put CR to bed, and so restless that she wanted to party more. Totally inconsistent.
I think she is the one that was vomitting, and was incapable of standing up.

So, why is MB lying? MB lies to protect CR and JR? OR... to Cover his own A$$? If CR brought her in, in this dangerous state, he's suddenly faced with a "hot potato" He runs to get JR... and then as PI's say "It becomes JR's problem". MB feels he no longer has culpability / responsibility from there.
If he knew she had head injuries, was so out of it that she couldn't stand up and was vomitting, he may have thought, "call 911?" But then... there would be questions... so... at some point there should have been a discussion here should we call 911? Since no 911 call... the question is WHY and WHY cook up this now very inconsistent story? MB went out of his way to make it seem like Lauren was ready to go for another round. That's just not plausible given the witnesses that PI's and LE must have concerning these new revelations. MB purposefully gave the impression that she was a party animal. Since his story otherwise is largely fabricated/embellished, why emphasize that point? I think because he too knows more. He is in a way saying that she was asking for it. But at the same time, he covers for CR, and gets himself off the hook for not calling 911. So in my view these 3 are all share the responsibility for not saving her life, and are implicit in her death. If you could prove that JR for example gave her something in attempts to revive her, but that backfired, then you could point the finger more at him. And of course there is some reason her body was removed vs. just calling 911 and that points mostly 2 things A) the possibility of substances in her system that contributed to her demise or B) sexual or other evidence which would be very difficult to explain even if she died simply from alcohol poisoning, head injury or heart problem. If her body is ever recovered, the reason for removing it may be gone forever.

I think there is a strong possibility that whether she died or was in the process of dying at CR/MB's or JR's, that JR probably had people he could call and explain about accidental circumstances and he needed help getting her out of there. (This again fits with that other witness who said they saw Lauren slumped over someone (not CR/MB or JR). I'm not sure what this person could be charged with? But that broadens the conspiracy to 4 people, each not necessarily knowing the full picture (until now perhaps).

So, CR, MB and JR are all liars, and looks like mostly not to protect each other, rather to protect themselves.
 
This is a far-out thought...but what if LS did leave JRs and headed towards College (but because she was so messed up) she THOUGHT she was taking her normal route towards Smallwood (which we know was to go left/south onto Morton)...but instead she mistakenly took a left/north onto College, and traveled away from Smallwood.

I wonder if LE examined videos from businesses on College north of 11th.

I know it's a shot in the dark...but I'm reminded of a time back in my early 20s when a bunch of us were out on a houseboat for a weekend of revelry at a lake. One night the houseboat was tied up to land, but a friend walked out of the boats restroom and out the back of the boat into the water (he thought he was stepping off the front of the boat onto dry land.) He got out of the water ok and was only wet and embarrassed.

Just thinking about that and how our orientation/sense of direction can get distorted when we have had too much to drink, etc.

To me, when LS hit her head (more than once), it adds yet another dimension. She had every reason to be confused upon arriving or leaving 5 North. The fact that she kept falling and had a noticeable black eye just kills me, not to mention CR dragging her around. IMO, she needed medical evaluation after hitting her head and falling more than once. So yes, you could be right ...

But considering all of the above, I still wonder if she was able to walk out JR's door.
 
To me, when LS hit her head (more than once), it adds yet another dimension. She had every reason to be confused upon arriving or leaving 5 North. The fact that she kept falling and had a noticeable black eye just kills me, not to mention CR dragging her around. IMO, she needed medical evaluation after hitting her head and falling more than once. So yes, you could be right ...

But considering all of the above, I still wonder if she was able to walk out JR's door.

If you look at every statement that is known or officially attributed to JR, don't you get the sense that he thoroughly interrogated and prosecuted himself?
He let her supposedly walk home because he had her prove she could walk inside of his apartment. Sure, within 1 hr of being drunk and or drugged and slamming her head at least 2 times on concrete and having to be carried because her legs were useless, she suddenly can pass a walking test in JR's apartment. To me this is something conjured up in the mind of someone who knew that they would be questioned and worked out their story.
Knowing full well that at some point it would come to light that she was far more messed up than CR that she may not sprung up and walked back to JR's but maybe was actually carried or dragged there from CR/MB's he would have to explain how it is that she left. So he comes up with this goofy walk test. Have you ever heard of anyone checking to see if your friends could walk before allowing them to leave? It's just not believable that she went from that state to a walking state in 1 hr. It's more like JR wants people to believe that is possible. Can't get convicted if there is enough doubt... and even to thwart a wrongful death suit would need angles to create doubt. What do you think? Was she crashing or was she recovering from 3:00 to 3:30?

Another revelation JR saw her getting a black eye, so he knew she had been injured or fallen. Another reason, to the piles of other reasons not to let her leave so soon or alone. Medical Experts, how long does it take for a black eye to start forming? I thought a black eye took several hours to form, so wondering how that is possible. Shouldn't it instead be all red and puffy? Why would you not take someone to a hospital or call an ambulance if they clearly had a significant head trauma and were not able to stand?
At the very least you would not let them stumble down the the street, it's just not believable. It feels like a carefully crafted story to already have an explanation for everything. So JR passes the "hot potato" situation off to alternative theories because he says he saw her leave, and after all he gave her the walking test first. odds of her being able to walk 1 hr later are very slim, in fact odds of her being conscious are slim. Unless... JR tried to keep her awake. Why would he do that? How would he do that?

How about this scenario - she's going down hard and fast in CR/MB's place, JR gets brought over by MB, JR sees it's not good, and quickly goes and gets Person X, or Person X is already there with JR. Perhaps the idea is to run her over to the hospital... but for one thing JR is also unable to drive but clear enough to know what is going on. so Person X is tasked with getting her to the ER, perhaps just dropping her off there and quickly exiting (I've heard of this situation several times when people don't want to be involved). But what if she died on the way? Now what? It's a lot harder to drop off a dead body and exit than a person in trouble. So now they have to drive somewhere else to cover their butt. Then come back and tell JR what happened because of phones records. This may have taken 30 to 45 minutes and JR then thinks of the phone calls. (Could this be the role of the possible houseguest?) Also during this time JR may have wanted to clean up his place of anything incriminating whether related to her demise or not. this could also explain why Cadaver dogs did not smell anything - she may have been taken out while still alive or as she was dying. Similarly the car used was not one the police had checked.

As a test by the way, see if anyone 20 years old who relies on their smartphone for everything... knows 2 random people's phone numbers from their contact list (other than home and bf/gf) Most people do not memorize phone numbers these days who use smart phones. And trying to recall those numbers in this mental state when you can't tell an ipod from your iphone... uh not plausible.

This is it in a nutshell:

CR = AMNESIA - off the hook
MB = PASSES THE BUCK to JR - off the hook
JR = PROVIDES "Walk Test" and watches her miraculously walk just fine barefoot after being unable to stand up 1 hr prior. - off the hook

Nah!
CR's Amnesia story is in conflct with his characterization of events that he was the one messed up and LS was helping him (making her seem to have her faculties) when really he was able to carry her and she was not able to stand or hold herself upright. - BIG LIE CR!

MB says CR pukes and LS helps MB put CR to bed, when in fact she couldn't even stand or sit upright, and had her head slammed twice on the concrete in addition to what made her so out of it in the first place. Then MB says she wants to party more. - BIG LIES MB!

JR - claims she was at his place about 1 hr (few details yet about that supposed miracle hour) except that she mistakes an ipod for a phone, and supposedly calls 2 people and then passes the "walk test".
When instead it's far more likely that she slipped off into a coma, cardic event, or seizure, or combination or at the very least passes out.
So, she's just fine after 1 hr and walks down the street? - BIG LIE JR!

These 3 Liars know more and probably at least one of them knows all.
 
I have been lurking for a few days as new info surfaces about this case. Thanks to all for links. My heart aches for the Spierers and I hope they get closure soon.

As I think about the parents of these 4 or 5 boys, I have a gut feeling that at least one set of parents knows. A parent doesn't shell out thousands of dollars for legal advise and not shake down their kid. Am I off base here, does any one else ever think about this?
 
I have been lurking for a few days as new info surfaces about this case. Thanks to all for links. My heart aches for the Spierers and I hope they get closure soon.

As I think about the parents of these 4 or 5 boys, I have a gut feeling that at least one set of parents knows. A parent doesn't shell out thousands of dollars for legal advise and not shake down their kid. Am I off base here, does any one else ever think about this?



That is a very good point.
 
VeryVeritas

Good post. This scenario is believable. But in this scenario person X is the one with the motive to hide a dead body. It works best for me when person X is someone they (the boys) fear like a drug distributor. If you insert person X as the house guest, why would a house guest take on the responsibility very risky job of hiding a body.


But overall, it looks close to me. I agree with the notion that the story line from MB to JR appears to be crafted.
 
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