IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28

[Jacobite]

Dogs were brought in several times in this case. Even the fire department from Lauren's hometown in New York sent a dog. These dogs do have information. Maybe, someone's party will end very soon.

 

[bessie]

Jacobite, I don't think anyone is questioning that dogs were used to search, but as I recall, it was never confirmed whether or not they were actually HRD (cadaver) dogs or trailing dogs seeking Lauren's scent. Or were both brought in at different times?

By Anne Yeager Fox59 5:23 p.m. EDT, June 30, 2011


Fox59 obtained pictures of police using a dog at the 5 North Townhomes at 11th Street & Morton.

Bloomington police also searched Jesse Wolff's home, in the 600th block of 9th Street Wednesday.

http://www.fox59.com/news/wxin-laur...ren-spierers-friends-20110630,0,5617179.story

Video

 

[Jacobite]

Jacobite, I don't think anyone is questioning that dogs were used to search, but as I recall, it was never confirmed whether or not they were actually HRD (cadaver) dogs or trailing dogs seeking Lauren's scent. Or were both brought in at different times?

I'm sorry, thought I'd better do a little research before i answered Abbey. The tracking dogs were brought out the day after Lauren was reported missing. This dog followed Lauren's individual scent. On 29 June, 2011, cadaver dogs were used at Jesse's home on 9th Street and at 5 North. I read a news story that said this search came up empty. I now think what the reporter really meant is that the dog failed to locate Lauren.

Abbey brought up Gale St John from Ohio. Gale does dog searches and claims to be psychic. <modsnip>

I know cadaver dogs could be fooled by a pork sandwich or foil from said sandwich in the dumpster. I also know this is the only scent cadaver dogs found in the area. So, I think Lauren either died at the dumpster or she was removed from the area still alive. My opinion

 

[bessie]

Where is this information about the dogs coming from?

The only time I have heard anything about police cadaver dogs was from that psychic lady's FB post ages ago that claimed her dogs hit in the same place as police cadaver dogs. I didn't think this was a credible statement, since she was not willing to back it up or provide any information about the dogs. As far as I know, LE has never released any info at all about cadaver dogs.... Am I wrong?

I'm sorry, thought I'd better do a little research before i answered Abbey. The tracking dogs were brought out the day after Lauren was reported missing. This dog followed Lauren's individual scent. On 29 June, 2011, cadaver dogs were used at Jesse's home on 9th Street and at 5 North. I read a news story that said this search came up empty. I now think what the reporter really meant is that the dog failed to locate Lauren.

Abbey brought up Gale St John from Ohio. Gale does dog searches and claims to be psychic. <modsnip>

I know cadaver dogs could be fooled by a pork sandwich or foil from said sandwich in the dumpster. I also know this is the only scent cadaver dogs found in the area. So, I think Lauren either died at the dumpster or she was removed from the area still alive. My opinion

It's true that dogs were used early in the search.

By BARBARA PINTO and JESSICA HOPPER (@jesshop23) June 10, 2011
Police are using dogs and setting up traffic check points to search for clues. They are also conducting polygraph exams of possible witnesses and pore through surveillance tapes.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/lauren-spi...erson-interest/story?id=13809364#.UGDT1VEw-So

They were also used in a search of 5 North and JW's residence on June 29, 2011. You'll note some articles mention LE "returning" to search with canines. There is some indication that a previous search was conducted with dogs, but to my knowledge it was not reported. IF one took place, it was done without the media's knowledge. So why was there heavy media presence at the second one? Some speculate it was a PR move to let the public know the case was still being actively investigated. (You'll recall that same week, the search center shut down, and volunteer searches came to an end.)

BLOOMINGTON -Police returned to a townhouse complex in their search for a missing student Wednesday.

http://www.wthr.com/story/15002386/detectives-following-leads-in-spierer-disappearance

By Christy Mullins
June 30, 2011, last update: 6/30 @ 11:31 am
Bloomington police entered boyfriend Jesse Wolff&#8217;s house in the 600 block of East Ninth Street around 5 p.m., along with the shared apartment of acquaintances Corey Rossman and Mike Beth at their building on 11th and Morton streets.
It is unclear whether police entered Jason &#8220;Jay&#8221; Rosenbaum&#8217;s apartment two doors down. Rosenbaum has reported he was the last person to see Spierer in the early morning hours she went missing June 3.

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/30/news.qp-2301833.sto

Qualters was adamant, however, that the findings would not be released.

By Anne Yeager Fox59 5:23 p.m. EDT, June 30, 2011

Bloomington Police Captain Joseph Qualters released the following statement:
"We have previously acknowledged the use of canines as part of this investigation. The activity observed today is an indication that this investigation remains active and ongoing, but we will continue with our policy of not discussing the details of the investigation, including specific names, or anything related to evidence obtained."

http://www.fox59.com/news/wxin-laur...ren-spierers-friends-20110630,0,5617179.story

If it has been reported that the canines "came up empty", I'd appreciate it if someone would post a link.

 

[imkeylime]

I'd never seen proof that DR admitted doing Klonopin with LS. I do recall secondhand statements to that effect. If he is directly quoted please post or at least the date of this article. At the time, I researched Klonopin and there is no question that it could cause her to fall and / or drop dead, all by itself. In conjunction with other substances and / or her falls and possibly her health it could have killed her. And from the time they supposedly ingested it, the effects would have been peaking around 4am, making it pretty much impossible for her to walk just a few minutes later. Look up the metabolic characteristics of this stuff. It does make sense that JR calls DR at 4:15 because of her condition. It also makes sense that DR did not answer because at 4:15 DR should have been unconscious as well.

Why would this in any way change the OD / Body disposal theories?
If she's dead from Klonopin, that doesn't mean those with her knew that.
The most plausible thing that happened in my mind is that one way or another 1,2 or 3 of them wound up with a dead LS and didn't want to face LE at 3:30 - 4:15 am The 3 main POI's did not necessarily know about the cameras. If LE arrived at CR/MB's or JR's and saw LS's injuries and questioned any of these 3 at the time can you see a different outcome here? It's very reasonable to assume that they were scared of what might happen if they were caught with a 4'11" 98lb dead 20 year old girl who looked beat to death. LE would not be very friendly. At the same time, CR was messed up, JR had been drinking heavily. That would look real good to LE too. Any average person even just sitting there watching, who was drunk and tired might be scared to face LE under those circumstances. The idea that maybe one would be serving 20 years in prison for murder could easily pass through their mind. They had no way of knowing that LS's falls were witnessed and recorded. They would have no way of knowing what killed her and that DR would admit Klonopin was used. As the saying goes "Hindsight is always 20/20". Even as I'm willing to accept other theories, nothing seems to fit the circumstances and facts better than this. If it were disproven, that would be fine with me. But as more facts have come in, it's only solidified this theory for me, and weakened others.

I've been thinking about your post for the last couple of days. I think you raise good points about LS' physical condition after falling ... and that the POIs wouldn't know her falls were caught on tape. The POIs also didn't appear to know about her long QT syndrome, so they could have also been thrown by an attack. I'd like to think that they would have tried to get her help, but then again, I'd like to think that they'd cooperate now.

Re: Klonopin. I know it's been fairly thoroughly discussed, but I do feel that JR and maybe CR would have known if LS and DR actually took it. I have older teens, and they seem pretty informed about what their friends are doing (I hear TMI sometimes, TBH). If JR or CR shared something with LS, they probably did so knowing she'd already taken something else (if the Klonopin info is true). I'm not sure how that would affect their subsequent behavior ... unless they slipped her something without her knowing it.

 

[TonyGatto]

So is the witness account coming from the PI's in the Lohud video (at around 4:30) coming from the same source? They describe Lauren being carried over CR's shoulders.
http://www.lohud.com/VideoNetwork/1662569062001/Lauren-Spierer-interactive

Your blog posts say almost the exact same thing (same location, includes part about Lauren falling and banging her head), but it's clear that the witness does not think it is Corey.

http://tonygatto.com/2011/06/16/new...n-spierer-mystery-encounter-with-unknown-man/
http://tonygatto.com/2011/06/22/pol...-discount-mystery-man-in-lauren-spierer-case/

Are you suggesting that the Lohud version is wrong and this wasn't Corey - or that your witness was describing a similar event, different time, different person??

Thanks!

ETA: Did you ever ask what your witness meant by "dark-skinned"? The description can obviously mean totally different things depending on whether it is a reference to skin tone or ethnicity.

At the 3:00 mark they are talking about my witness. They describe her as an older person, not a college student. They describe the same scene as she told me, LS hits her head. And it seems the PI's think it's CR. She told me she was shown photos and that none of them matched the ones she was shown. And her description doesn't seem to match CR either.

 

[TonyGatto]

I was hoping that since Tony Gatto came back to this thread to talk about the 'mystery man' witness again, that he would answer a couple of questions. I don't really understand his reluctance about this...

It's not reluctance, I just have other things to do.

 

[British]

I am wondering if LE ever did luminol tests in the apartments of the POIs where LS reportedly was before she disappeared.

For some reason the whole focus in this case has been on the her medical history of long QT syndrome. However, there are several other possibilities and if someone thinks slightly outside the prevailing theory (death because of QT syndrome associated with excessive drugs/alcohol), other real possibilities exist.

I would think that to have a thorough and complete investigation, luminol tests should be performed in the places in 5 North and possibly the cars of the POIs.

Personally, I never believed the story that she "walked alone in the middle of the night". So, if there are doubts on whether those accounts were true, all possibilities should be considered, including luminol tests. Why not?

 

[AbbeyR]

It's not reluctance, I just have other things to do.

Sorry, TG. The mystery man questions have been driving me crazy for ages. Patience is not my strong point

Thanks for your reply. It's interesting then, that the LoHud account uses the same witness but claims it's CR. (i.e., no mystery man) if the witness told you she didn't recognize him. I wonder if they had other evidence to show it was or whether they assumed this made the most sense given the timeline, despite the witnesses description. I don't have time to go back and watch it again right now, but I remember thinking that it sounded like there may have been more than one witness (or possibly video) from the way the PIs were speaking.

 

[AbbeyR]

Bessie, thanks for compiling all of the references about the dogs.

About Gale St. John, I have mentioned already that I am skeptical about her accounts of the cadaver dogs because I couldn't find any information about their certification (and well, she's a psychic). But, the reason why I looked into in the first place was that she publicly posted on FB information in a post called "Lauren Spierer: What the public does not know" -- Someone posted this or linked to it here when it first happened.

(I can link to this, right? It's a public FB page. If not, I'll delete:http://www.facebook.com/notes/gale-...at-the-public-does-not-know/10150243173092338)

The point that interested me was that she claims she was working with the Spierers and the coordinator of the search in Bloomington and claims that police told them their dogs indicated in the same place.

Again, it's a facebook post, so take it with a grain of salt. That said, it did make me wonder about the possibility that LE or the Spierers may have some kind of evidence from the dog searches that led them to believe that Lauren did not walk away from JR's apartment.

 

[ared684]

Sorry, TG. The mystery man questions have been driving me crazy for ages. Patience is not my strong point

Thanks for your reply. It's interesting then, that the LoHud account uses the same witness but claims it's CR. (i.e., no mystery man) if the witness told you she didn't recognize him. I wonder if they had other evidence to show it was or whether they assumed this made the most sense given the timeline, despite the witnesses description. I don't have time to go back and watch it again right now, but I remember thinking that it sounded like there may have been more than one witness (or possibly video) from the way the PIs were speaking.

IIRC, the LoHud storyline places the witness sighting to take place before LS and CR are spotted by the alley cameras. Since they knew CR was with her leaving Smallwood, and just minutes later in the alley, they probably concluded it to be CR even if the witness didn't think it was him. However, if it is the same witness, the times are not consistent with eachother. But PI's did say they think the witness saw LS, just at the wrong time.

 

[bx2]

At the 3:00 mark they are talking about my witness. They describe her as an older person, not a college student. They describe the same scene as she told me, LS hits her head. And it seems the PI's think it's CR. She told me she was shown photos and that none of them matched the ones she was shown. And her description doesn't seem to match CR either.

Another confusing difference seems to be that the PIs' witness was "leaving, visiting a boy" not driving home from work. Also, it seems odd to me that in the video BD looks off camera and asks someone, "did you turn that in". Maybe the witness didn't bring up that she had 2 LE interviews along with a sketch and photo identification?

Ah well, if this is indeed the same account, sounds like we can finally attribute the TG witness sighting to be before LS enters the alley between 10th and 11th.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Yeah. That isn't what I was suggesting. I was suggesting that the state LS was in indicates a cocktail, yes a very very dangerous one, of several drugs and alcohol.

You're right, it's not about me at all so I'll not address the rest of- and most of- your post except to say that while I appreciate your ever so sincere wish of luck for my future, with nearly a decade of sobriety behind me and almost 2 years as a counselor I know that luck doesn't have one single thing to do with that success. <modsnip>

We are on the same page then. Even as one drug alone could have produced what is known to have been happening to her, agree that things are pointing to an even more dangerous cocktail.

 

[VeryVeritas]

'No body, No Crime' still seems to hold true despite advances in forensic science. In some ways, this case reminds me of Natalee Holloway and we all recall that JvS was a free man and would have likely remained so until he murdered someone and was faced with mounds of prosecutorial evidence.

Agreed. It has always been criminals who stay one step ahead of the law who are the biggest danger to society. Essentially our system locks up the uneducated, mentally ill, and mostly lower intelligent offenders, while the more clever and wealthy get to do as they please. It can barely be called justice.
One of the problems is that our nation was duped into spending $12 trillion to protect us from invisible terrorists, instead of spending a few billion to go after those who are a real danger, and find the missing. LE does have the very best riot gear(even in small towns!), great weapons, and yet there are no rioting masses of terrorists. Meanwhile LE can't find people disappearing left and right under their nose and seems to be mystified from coast to coast as to how to find the perps. The reason is that they have been trained, equipped and focused on the wrong threat. We really stop locking people up for pot, and stop spending Trillions on invisible boogie men, and go after the real boogie men who snatch (mostly women) who are never seen again.
Terrorists are not the reason people these days are afraid to let their kids play outside. Drug addiction / abuse is a sickness that should be treated. It's a proven fact that 1% of people are hardcore addicts regardless of laws, penalties, etc... So, locking people up for drugs is a waste of resources. By keeping drugs illegal (instead of treating it as a disease) it has created the most powerful and wealthy criminals the world has ever known. It has corrupted the US legal system (and Healthcare system) from bottom to top. If we stop these bogus wars on drugs and terror (which fill someones pockets with trillions) and instead put a few hundred billion of these dollars to work to find the missing and make our streets safer coast to coast it would be a much better place to live.
There are 2 million people in US prisons and jails, the highest per capita incarceration rate of any country (As I understand) We have less than 5% of the worlds population, but we have 25% of the worlds incarcerated, and yet it's one of the most dangerous countries for a woman to walk alone.
Catching the perps in these "vanishing people" cases really should be a national priority.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I am not sure that DR "readily admits" that he and LS shared Klonopin. The lohud anniversar article is the only one I've seen that mentions Klonopin and it that article, it states that JR told investigators that DR or LS told him that they had taken Klonopin. If you have another source, please post a link.

Since he is not sure which one it was, he was probably told sometime during the evening before LS disappeared. For DR to readily admit something to a fellow student is not the same as if he were speaking to an investigator.

http://www.lohud.com/article/201206...ered-away-after-night-heavy-drinking-drug-use

I'm not sure either, and have not seen any direct quote that DR admits this. So yes, everything seems based on Lohud's report of Klonopin use. Did not see JR or DR dispute this.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Scary. That alertness is deceptive and they are in just as much danger of death, really they are in even more danger when you factor in the stupid actions they are more likely to be involved in while "alert". These exact drug combinations kill people every single day and probably either directly or indirectly killed LS.

You probably know how many people die from Heart Disease and Cancer per year right? What about other leading causes of death?
150,000 people per year (and rapidly growing) die from prescription medicine, written by Physicians and distributed by Pharmacies.
45,000 people per year die from auto accidents.
(25,000 of those people die from drunk drivers.)
5,000 people die from illegal drugs
11,000 people die from hand guns (the overwhelming majority of those are domestic disputes or accidents in the home)
On average over the past 100 years about 30 people per year die from foreign terrorist attacks on US soil.
Pot apparently doesn't kill anyone (although one guy this past year claims it caused him to bite someone's face off)

Do we as a country spend to attack these causes of death proportionately?
You know the answer... We spent $12 Trillion in the past 12 years on the non-existent threat of terrorists. While the population has grown by several million, LE and airbags have managed to cap the number of traffic deaths so one could say the % of traffic deaths is going down. But what are we doing about the epidemic of deaths due to prescription medication? Next to heart disease, stroke, or cancer it's the most likely way we will all die.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Scary. That alertness is deceptive and they are in just as much danger of death, really they are in even more danger when you factor in the stupid actions they are more likely to be involved in while "alert". These exact drug combinations kill people every single day and probably either directly or indirectly killed LS.

This brings up a plausible support for MB's Lawyer suggesting that LS wanted to keep partying. Even without mixing in coke, Klonopin can cause people to slip back and forth between coma and alertness. Even though I don't think LS regained consciousness after that last recorded fall... if she did, she may have appeared alert enough to fool MB (unintentionally of course) into thinking she was ok for a few minutes before slipping back into a coma. Like all of the theories we are working here, this is speculation. One that MB's defense could argue.

One of the reasons I don't believe CR/MB/JR's version of events is that up until that last fall she was cycling between having the lights on and having them off. Yet, after that last fall, no one says the lights were off AT ALL.
Ok, I think the lights went out and stayed out. But MB/JR are saying the lights were on and stayed on. The inconsistency between her known condition and their story is a red flag for me.

 

[VeryVeritas]

How about a simpler reason? What if this was rape-murder and the person responsible does not want the body to be found out so there is no biological material to be linked to him? To me that sounds at least as a possible, if not more possible, than the possibilities you listed above.

I'm for simpler explanations, particularly where human nature is involved.
However this would fall under #5 They fear other evidence on or in the body may lead back to them (14%)

Gave it 14%(and lumped in with other things like date rape drugs or signs of struggle or other injuries) because even though LS was very desirable, she was also seriously and obviously injured. I do think opportunistic(as opposed to violent forcible) rape followed by accidental death is a very distinct possibility of about 5% chance by itself from a known POI. Forcible Rape and Covering it up with murder, much less likely but still possible. While I think CR/MB/JR are rule breakers and liars, so far I do not think any of them intentionally killed her. I could be wrong. Because she is missing they do deserve to be investigated for all possibilities.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I've been thinking about your post for the last couple of days. I think you raise good points about LS' physical condition after falling ... and that the POIs wouldn't know her falls were caught on tape. The POIs also didn't appear to know about her long QT syndrome, so they could have also been thrown by an attack. I'd like to think that they would have tried to get her help, but then again, I'd like to think that they'd cooperate now.

Re: Klonopin. I know it's been fairly thoroughly discussed, but I do feel that JR and maybe CR would have known if LS and DR actually took it. I have older teens, and they seem pretty informed about what their friends are doing (I hear TMI sometimes, TBH). If JR or CR shared something with LS, they probably did so knowing she'd already taken something else (if the Klonopin info is true). I'm not sure how that would affect their subsequent behavior ... unless they slipped her something without her knowing it.

It's also possible that JR brought up Klonopin because he knew that it might explain CR's amnesia, LS's injuries, and might help get him off the hook.

The fact that LS is missing without much of a trace shows that someone is very calculating.

 

[VeryVeritas]

At the 3:00 mark they are talking about my witness. They describe her as an older person, not a college student. They describe the same scene as she told me, LS hits her head. And it seems the PI's think it's CR. She told me she was shown photos and that none of them matched the ones she was shown. And her description doesn't seem to match CR either.

It really makes a big differencie if your witness saw LS at 3:38 (AFTER MB's call to JR) vs. at 3:00 (which would mean that CR or X picked her up and carried her towards N. College from the gravel lot and NOT to 5.N. If that is true then it would make MB/JR liars because she would not have been to their apts. But if it occurs at 3:38 then perhaps only JR is lying.