IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28

[Jacobite]

Then on 10 September, 2011, I was a Sports in Bloomington, drinking imports at the bar when a couple connected with this case showed up and sat down right next to me. I was surprised by this because the place was nearly empty. One of them I recognized from television, the other from Tony Gatto. They were on the cellphone with a guy they called Jay the whole time.

This would not be the last time we encountered POI from this case in a drinking situation. These guys mostly like to party hard with alcohol and have a good time. They were always friendly and nonthreatening in these situations. I also had good reason to think they knew who I was. I won't go into how. I will only say I am more comfortable with the POI from this case knowing my real name than some of those whom I've encountered on threads. And, I mean that. So, if any of you choose to out yourself to anyone through this case, please be darn careful who you out yourself to. Not everyone wishes us luck or any good at all.

 

[IUGrad84]

I continue to revisit my first impression regarding this case and the POIs. I agree that it's a rationale step for a parent of a college student to hire an attorney to serve the best interest of their son and family. IMO, if you have nothing to hide and are in no way culpable for the disappearance or criminal activity involving LS - your first instinct would not include taking off out of town or claiming memory loss. An attorney may counsel against an LE or FBI-administered polygraph, but if you feel strongly that you MUST 'clear your name' or share what you know, it's ultimately your choice. What am I missing here? I just can't wrap my head around the behavior of the last known individuals (JR, CR, MB) to interact with LS.

 

[IUGrad84]

I will only say I am more comfortable with the POI from this case knowing my real name than some of those whom I've encountered on threads. And, I mean that. So, if any of you choose to out yourself to anyone through this case, please be darn careful who you out yourself to. Not everyone wishes us luck or any good at all.

How unfortunate. If there's intimidation or threats, please contact LE.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

I'd never seen proof that DR admitted doing Klonopin with LS. I do recall secondhand statements to that effect. If he is directly quoted please post or at least the date of this article. At the time, I researched Klonopin and there is no question that it could cause her to fall and / or drop dead, all by itself. In conjunction with other substances and / or her falls and possibly her health it could have killed her. And from the time they supposedly ingested it, the effects would have been peaking around 4am, making it pretty much impossible for her to walk just a few minutes later. Look up the metabolic characteristics of this stuff. It does make sense that JR calls DR at 4:15 because of her condition. It also makes sense that DR did not answer because at 4:15 DR should have been unconscious as well.

Why would this in any way change the OD / Body disposal theories?
If she's dead from Klonopin, that doesn't mean those with her knew that.
The most plausible thing that happened in my mind is that one way or another 1,2 or 3 of them wound up with a dead LS and didn't want to face LE at 3:30 - 4:15 am The 3 main POI's did not necessarily know about the cameras. If LE arrived at CR/MB's or JR's and saw LS's injuries and questioned any of these 3 at the time can you see a different outcome here? It's very reasonable to assume that they were scared of what might happen if they were caught with a 4'11" 98lb dead 20 year old girl who looked beat to death. LE would not be very friendly. At the same time, CR was messed up, JR had been drinking heavily. That would look real good to LE too. Any average person even just sitting there watching, who was drunk and tired might be scared to face LE under those circumstances. The idea that maybe one would be serving 20 years in prison for murder could easily pass through their mind. They had no way of knowing that LS's falls were witnessed and recorded. They would have no way of knowing what killed her and that DR would admit Klonopin was used. As the saying goes "Hindsight is always 20/20". Even as I'm willing to accept other theories, nothing seems to fit the circumstances and facts better than this. If it were disproven, that would be fine with me. But as more facts have come in, it's only solidified this theory for me, and weakened others.

I do hope that they will make a deal and admit what happened and give the Spierers the truth AND LS's location. If she died from Klonopin + whatever, that's something they need to know. The reasons why this was covered up, might be less sinister than imagined. If it is what happened, keeping quiet at this stage is horrible, and the longer it goes on, then it's as though they did kill her (to me). Torturing LS's family by not coming forward with the truth is evil. It's my view that if they aren't forthcoming soon, and then later it's proven they covered it up, they should get 20+ years. They may think they can bargain their sentence down later, or that they can just skate on through life as though nothing happened. How guilty would they feel if they figured she OD'd by her own actions? I'm sure they could all go on with their lives, finish school, start businesses, etc... oh wait... that is what they are doing.

I don't know if this will be helpful or not but maybe; while I can't speak to the effect that Klonopin (Clonazipam) might have regarding the Long QT, I can tell you with 100% certainty that ingesting klonopin either with or without other substances woulndn't make LS just drop or even render her unable to walk. I've been sober and clean for almost 7 years with the help of methadone and that is the one substance that would be really dangerous to combine with klonopin, but I even did that many times and I was never unable to walk and I am almost exactly the same height and weight as LS (I'm 100 lbs and 4'10"AND 3/4" - when under 5ft that 3/4" becomes important to us!! ). Also, just fyi, it is virtually impossible to overdose on Klonopin when taken solo. The effects of alcohol would be sharply focused when mixed, but when mixed with coke while it would increase the risks depending amount the amounts of each used it could actually serve to lessen the effects of the coke. What it would do is support what Jacobite says in that while she wouldnt drop or be unable to walk she would likely be out of it ( if mixed with alcohol only) and much more likely to be in a black out state. Doing coke after klonopin and drinking would decrease the likelihood she would be incoherent. So, by itself it's a fairly benign drug, I know people that take this as RX'd 3x a day and walk around all day just fine. Granted none of them are doing shooters or have Long QT, however my Dad is prescribed a very low dose of Klonopin for insomnia and he is in the late stages of congestive heart failure and has a pacemaker/defibulator implant. His heart rhythm is of major concern and he does in fact get shocked approximately 1x a month.
I just thought it might be helpful to hear some real world information about Klonopin and what one could expect to see with its use in various situations, not to mention I'm always happy to tell people about how blinded by addiction I was 7 years ago and how when my eyes finally opened the first thing I saw was humility, and it was beautiful.

 

[Jacobite]

The law enforcement cadaver dogs really should have found the death scent if Lauren had died in the area. BUT, THE DOGS COULD NOT FIND THAT SCENT ANYWHERE. They really should have, if she had died. But, nothing. What really happened? 1. Did she recover from syncope, leave like JR said, and got abducted? OR, 2. Did someone make a really bad decision and dispose of a very helpless girl who was still alive?

 

[VeryVeritas]

I don't know if this will be helpful or not but maybe; while I can't speak to the effect that Klonopin (Clonazipam) might have regarding the Long QT, I can tell you with 100% certainty that ingesting klonopin either with or without other substances woulndn't make LS just drop or even render her unable to walk. I've been sober and clean for almost 7 years with the help of methadone and that is the one substance that would be really dangerous to combine with klonopin, but I even did that many times and I was never unable to walk and I am almost exactly the same height and weight as LS (I'm 100 lbs and 4'10"AND 3/4" - when under 5ft that 3/4" becomes important to us!! ). Also, just fyi, it is virtually impossible to overdose on Klonopin when taken solo. The effects of alcohol would be sharply focused when mixed, but when mixed with coke while it would increase the risks depending amount the amounts of each used it could actually serve to lessen the effects of the coke. What it would do is support what Jacobite says in that while she wouldnt drop or be unable to walk she would likely be out of it ( if mixed with alcohol only) and much more likely to be in a black out state. Doing coke after klonopin and drinking would decrease the likelihood she would be incoherent. So, by itself it's a fairly benign drug, I know people that take this as RX'd 3x a day and walk around all day just fine. Granted none of them are doing shooters or have Long QT, however my Dad is prescribed a very low dose of Klonopin for insomnia and he is in the late stages of congestive heart failure and has a pacemaker/defibulator implant. His heart rhythm is of major concern and he does in fact get shocked approximately 1x a month.
I just thought it might be helpful to hear some real world information about Klonopin and what one could expect to see with its use in various situations, not to mention I'm always happy to tell people about how blinded by addiction I was 7 years ago and how when my eyes finally opened the first thing I saw was humility, and it was beautiful.

<modsnip>
These are the OD symptoms of Klonopin. If you have doubts about this, go to the Merck Manual, Ask a Pharmacist, Poison Control Center or your County Coroner. Klonopin is in the top most abused prescription medications today and it is deadly alone and especially when mixed with anything else.

This list of OD symptoms is dead on consistent with Lauren's known demise, and probable end.


Extreme Drowsiness

Slight drowsiness is a normal side effect experienced by many people who take Klonopin. However, if someone has overdosed on Klonopin, he may experience extreme drowsiness. It will be difficult to wake him and keep him awake, states Drugs.com.

Confusion

Klonopin suppresses the central nervous system and therefore will cause confusion in someone who has overdosed. She may not remember how much of the medication that she took or even if she took it. She may be disoriented and have trouble telling you where she is or who she is.
Loss of Coordination

As the central nervous system is suppressed, a person who has overdosed on Klonopin may appear as though he is inebriated from alcohol, according to HealthyPlace. He will be at an increased risk for FALLING because he may have difficulty standing or walking.

Coma and Death

Seek medical attention immediately after a suspected overdose because klonopin can suppress the central nervous system so much that a person may experience coma or decreased respirations and the heartbeat may cease to function properly, causing death.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/79161-klonopin-overdose-symptoms/#ixzz27It4QUBa

Additionally:

The Top 10 Most Dangerous Rx Drugs in America

This list of brand name and generic drugs was compiled from the Drug Abuse Warning Network's (DAWN's) database of emergency room visits in 2009, including drug poisonings that lead to both deaths and survivals.

1. Xanax (alprazolam) 112,552 (benzodiazepine class)

2. OxyContin (and other oxycodone drugs) 105,214 (opiate class)

3. Vicodin (and other hydrocodone drugs) 86,258 (opiate class)

4. Methadone 63,031 (opiate class)

5. Klonopin (clonazepam) 57,633 (benzodiazepine class)

6. Ativan (lorazepam) 36,582 (benzodiazepine class)

7. Morphine drugs 31,731 (opiate class)

8. Seroquel (quetiapine) 29,436 (antipsychotic class)

9. Ambien (zolpidem) 29,127 (sedative class)

10. Valium (diazepam) 25,150 (benzodiazepine)


<modsnip>

Finally, Xanax was also implicated (but with even less corroboration than the Klonopin).

I will give you this... If she took anything else with the Klonopin (And that seems extremely likely, especially some alcohol) that would have increased her chances of death dramatically even without the skull injuries or long QT.

 

[VeryVeritas]

What I am wondering now is that if DR readily admits that he and LS shared Klonopin,
And DR is the only POI to take and pass an LE administered Polygraph;

Then by now those who disposed of LS would have a good idea of why she died, and that it may not have been their fault. (At the same time, where did the Klonopin come from?) So why would they not at least make an anonymous call to reveal where her body is? Some reasons that come to mind, with my guess as to likelyhood:

1) The location may lead back to them or is too close to them (25%)
2) By being transferred to other person(s) for disposal the location or method is unknown.( 20%)
3) They are committed to total silence regardless if it's 1,2,3 or more people involved. (20%)
4) They are holding back this info as a bargaining chip to make a deal. (20%)
5) They fear other evidence on or in the body may lead back to them (14%)
6)They think the body was totally destroyed somehow and so there is nothing to report. (1%)
7) They can't because she is still alive (<1%)

Can you think of any other reasons at this point why the Key POI's who were with her in those last known minutes would not reveal where she is?

 

[IUGrad84]

If you are suggesting that taking Klonopin for recreational use is harmless you are a danger to yourself and society.

These are the OD symptoms of Klonopin. If you have doubts about this, go to the Merck Manual, Ask a Pharmacist, Poison Control Center or your County Coroner. Klonopin is in the top most abused prescription medications today and it is deadly alone and especially when mixed with anything else.

This list of OD symptoms is dead on consistent with Lauren's known demise, and probable end.

I mentioned in an earlier post that my daughter had shared seeing students using xanex (did not specify klonopin) followed by cocaine use - resulting in alertness, ability to walk, talk and function. Obviously, I have no clue as to their gender/height/weight or usage of other drugs/alcohol being consumed, but was completely floored that it was even possible to quickly go from a near coma-like state to alertness.

 

[IUGrad84]

Can you think of any other reasons at this point why the Key POI's who were with her in those last known minutes would not reveal where she is?

'No body, No Crime' still seems to hold true despite advances in forensic science. In some ways, this case reminds me of Natalee Holloway and we all recall that JvS was a free man and would have likely remained so until he murdered someone and was faced with mounds of prosecutorial evidence.

 

[masootz]

jmo - trying to predict what one drug, much less three or four in combination, will do to someone is like shooting at flies. when i was much younger and dumber i took klonopin and it just made me feel tired/mellow. it was similar to taking benadryl but slightly less of the tired feeling. in fact i didn't think it was that big of a deal simply because there really wasn't much of an effect. i had friends who said it made them have periods of black out. point being it has different effects on different people and certainly more so when combined with other things. i do think it's important to establish if she was taking an unsafe combination of drugs/alcohol but trying to determine if the combo would make her alert, drowsy, black out, etc is likely pointless. there's just too many variables.

 

[AbbeyR]

The law enforcement cadaver dogs really should have found the death scent if Lauren had died in the area. BUT, THE DOGS COULD NOT FIND THAT SCENT ANYWHERE. They really should have, if she had died. But, nothing. What really happened? 1. Did she recover from syncope, leave like JR said, and got abducted? OR, 2. Did someone make a really bad decision and dispose of a very helpless girl who was still alive?

Where is this information about the dogs coming from?

The only time I have heard anything about police cadaver dogs was from that psychic lady's FB post ages ago that claimed her dogs hit in the same place as police cadaver dogs. I didn't think this was a credible statement, since she was not willing to back it up or provide any information about the dogs. As far as I know, LE has never released any info at all about cadaver dogs.... Am I wrong?

 

[AbbeyR]

I was hoping that since Tony Gatto came back to this thread to talk about the 'mystery man' witness again, that he would answer a couple of questions. I don't really understand his reluctance about this...

 

[Ros]

What I am wondering now is that if DR readily admits that he and LS shared Klonopin,
And DR is the only POI to take and pass an LE administered Polygraph;

I am not sure that DR "readily admits" that he and LS shared Klonopin. The lohud anniversar article is the only one I've seen that mentions Klonopin and it that article, it states that JR told investigators that DR or LS told him that they had taken Klonopin. If you have another source, please post a link.

Since he is not sure which one it was, he was probably told sometime during the evening before LS disappeared. For DR to readily admit something to a fellow student is not the same as if he were speaking to an investigator.

http://www.lohud.com/article/201206...ered-away-after-night-heavy-drinking-drug-use

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

<modsnip>

These are the OD symptoms of Klonopin. If you have doubts about this, go to the Merck Manual, Ask a Pharmacist, Poison Control Center or your County Coroner. Klonopin is in the top most abused prescription medications today and it is deadly alone and especially when mixed with anything else.

This list of OD symptoms is dead on consistent with Lauren's known demise, and probable end.


Extreme Drowsiness

Slight drowsiness is a normal side effect experienced by many people who take Klonopin. However, if someone has overdosed on Klonopin, he may experience extreme drowsiness. It will be difficult to wake him and keep him awake, states Drugs.com.

Confusion

Klonopin suppresses the central nervous system and therefore will cause confusion in someone who has overdosed. She may not remember how much of the medication that she took or even if she took it. She may be disoriented and have trouble telling you where she is or who she is.
Loss of Coordination

As the central nervous system is suppressed, a person who has overdosed on Klonopin may appear as though he is inebriated from alcohol, according to HealthyPlace. He will be at an increased risk for FALLING because he may have difficulty standing or walking.

Coma and Death

Seek medical attention immediately after a suspected overdose because klonopin can suppress the central nervous system so much that a person may experience coma or decreased respirations and the heartbeat may cease to function properly, causing death.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/79161-klonopin-overdose-symptoms/#ixzz27It4QUBa

Additionally:

The Top 10 Most Dangerous Rx Drugs in America

This list of brand name and generic drugs was compiled from the Drug Abuse Warning Network's (DAWN's) database of emergency room visits in 2009, including drug poisonings that lead to both deaths and survivals.

1. Xanax (alprazolam) 112,552 (benzodiazepine class)

2. OxyContin (and other oxycodone drugs) 105,214 (opiate class)

3. Vicodin (and other hydrocodone drugs) 86,258 (opiate class)

4. Methadone 63,031 (opiate class)

5. Klonopin (clonazepam) 57,633 (benzodiazepine class)

6. Ativan (lorazepam) 36,582 (benzodiazepine class)

7. Morphine drugs 31,731 (opiate class)

8. Seroquel (quetiapine) 29,436 (antipsychotic class)

9. Ambien (zolpidem) 29,127 (sedative class)

10. Valium (diazepam) 25,150 (benzodiazepine)


<modsnip> The statistics show that for every person like you, ER rooms are filled with those who don't make it. It's irresponsible to say that abusing these drugs didn't do anything to you so they won't harm others. Very highly encourage you to check medical facts when making such posts, else indirectly you may be the cause of another tragedy. Good luck staying clean. You see, ITS NOT ABOUT YOU. It's about what happens to people in general. And Statistically Klonopin is in the top 5 most dangerous prescription drugs.

Finally, Xanax was also implicated (but with even less corroboration than the Klonopin).

I will give you this... If she took anything else with the Klonopin (And that seems extremely likely, especially some alcohol) that would have increased her chances of death dramatically even without the skull injuries or long QT.

Yeah. That isn't what I was suggesting. I was suggesting that the state LS was in indicates a cocktail, yes a very very dangerous one, of several drugs and alcohol.

You're right, it's not about me at all so I'll not address the rest of- and most of- your post except to say that while I appreciate your ever so sincere wish of luck for my future, with nearly a decade of sobriety behind me and almost 2 years as a counselor I know that luck doesn't have one single thing to do with that success. <modsnip>

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

I mentioned in an earlier post that my daughter had shared seeing students using xanex (did not specify klonopin) followed by cocaine use - resulting in alertness, ability to walk, talk and function. Obviously, I have no clue as to their gender/height/weight or usage of other drugs/alcohol being consumed, but was completely floored that it was even possible to quickly go from a near coma-like state to alertness.

Scary. That alertness is deceptive and they are in just as much danger of death, really they are in even more danger when you factor in the stupid actions they are more likely to be involved in while "alert". These exact drug combinations kill people every single day and probably either directly or indirectly killed LS.

 

[AbbeyR]

I just thought it might be helpful to hear some real world information about Klonopin and what one could expect to see with its use in various situations, not to mention I'm always happy to tell people about how blinded by addiction I was 7 years ago and how when my eyes finally opened the first thing I saw was humility, and it was beautiful.

It was helpful, thanks for sharing your experiences.

I'm always happy to hear stories of people succeeding at their goals. Congrats on your 7 years

 

[imkeylime]

I don't know if this will be helpful or not but maybe; while I can't speak to the effect that Klonopin (Clonazipam) might have regarding the Long QT, I can tell you with 100% certainty that ingesting klonopin either with or without other substances woulndn't make LS just drop or even render her unable to walk. I've been sober and clean for almost 7 years with the help of methadone and that is the one substance that would be really dangerous to combine with klonopin, but I even did that many times and I was never unable to walk and I am almost exactly the same height and weight as LS (I'm 100 lbs and 4'10"AND 3/4" - when under 5ft that 3/4" becomes important to us!! ). Also, just fyi, it is virtually impossible to overdose on Klonopin when taken solo. The effects of alcohol would be sharply focused when mixed, but when mixed with coke while it would increase the risks depending amount the amounts of each used it could actually serve to lessen the effects of the coke. What it would do is support what Jacobite says in that while she wouldnt drop or be unable to walk she would likely be out of it ( if mixed with alcohol only) and much more likely to be in a black out state. Doing coke after klonopin and drinking would decrease the likelihood she would be incoherent. So, by itself it's a fairly benign drug, I know people that take this as RX'd 3x a day and walk around all day just fine. Granted none of them are doing shooters or have Long QT, however my Dad is prescribed a very low dose of Klonopin for insomnia and he is in the late stages of congestive heart failure and has a pacemaker/defibulator implant. His heart rhythm is of major concern and he does in fact get shocked approximately 1x a month.
I just thought it might be helpful to hear some real world information about Klonopin and what one could expect to see with its use in various situations, not to mention I'm always happy to tell people about how blinded by addiction I was 7 years ago and how when my eyes finally opened the first thing I saw was humility, and it was beautiful.

Thanks for sharing your personal experiences, SeeingForThe1stTime. I've always thought it possible that LS followed Klonopin with coke as a way to sober up. JMO.

I'm glad you conquered the beast, BTW. I'm proud of you!

 

[British]

What I am wondering now is that if DR readily admits that he and LS shared Klonopin,
And DR is the only POI to take and pass an LE administered Polygraph;

Then by now those who disposed of LS would have a good idea of why she died, and that it may not have been their fault. (At the same time, where did the Klonopin come from?) So why would they not at least make an anonymous call to reveal where her body is? Some reasons that come to mind, with my guess as to likelyhood:

1) The location may lead back to them or is too close to them (25%)
2) By being transferred to other person(s) for disposal the location or method is unknown.( 20%)
3) They are committed to total silence regardless if it's 1,2,3 or more people involved. (20%)
4) They are holding back this info as a bargaining chip to make a deal. (20%)
5) They fear other evidence on or in the body may lead back to them (14%)
6)They think the body was totally destroyed somehow and so there is nothing to report. (1%)
7) They can't because she is still alive (<1%)

Can you think of any other reasons at this point why the Key POI's who were with her in those last known minutes would not reveal where she is?

How about a simpler reason? What if this was rape-murder and the person responsible does not want the body to be found out so there is no biological material to be linked to him? To me that sounds at least as a possible, if not more possible, than the possibilities you listed above.

 

[Jacobite]

The drug stories are rumors and Lauren's girlfriends refuse to accept them because they really knew her. The fact is that she had Long QT Syndrome. Her condition as reported by video and witnesses seems more consistent with Long QT symptoms than anything else. Syncope explains the falling. Prolonged syncope can be mistaken for death if you aren't medically trained. Maybe, the way she was disposed of is what killed her. Murder.

 

[jjenny]

'No body, No Crime' still seems to hold true despite advances in forensic science. In some ways, this case reminds me of Natalee Holloway and we all recall that JvS was a free man and would have likely remained so until he murdered someone and was faced with mounds of prosecutorial evidence.

Yep. Prosecutors are very reluctant to try someone without a body.
And in LS's case, I am not even sure they have a clue as to who they should be putting on trial.