So much to remember at this point so I don't know if anything doesn't fit that timeline but that would make more sense as far as the period of time between arriving at SW, the 4:15 phone call, and allegedly leaving.... etc...
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28
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So much to remember at this point so I don't know if anything doesn't fit that timeline but that would make more sense as far as the period of time between arriving at SW, the 4:15 phone call, and allegedly leaving.... etc...
Ixchel13
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In the rehashing, things emerge. Like that the witness at 3:38 could be covering up for herself/others, that's the first time I heard that one just now. And it does make sense. Not to bash LE, but they may be calling a suspect or POI a witness for all we know.
LE doesn't apologize for their actions. They let everyone see photos of a truck in which Mickey's bike had been erased. Hundreds of posts about this photo,eventually a really good photographer saw the outline of the bike, and when I looked hard, I thought I could see it. But I think the general consensus said light, plants, car bumper, etc. At the end, they told us the truth but didn't apologize, IMO not up to them to do so.
In the POI story, i.e. from SW confrontation to alley to putting CR to bed, to JR's and out the door, everything is simple. very KISS. Before that began,
IMO,in the alley before you get to the alley between 10th and C they took,
they could have been calling the girls at 10th and C on CRs phone.
here's something that bothers me. If they were so intent on getting to CRs apt, no need to sit on the steps at 10th and C. Maybe LS never really wanted to go to CRs apt, remember he's saying he can't remember. But when she couldn't get in, they went on. This could be what CR is wanting to have amnesia about.
Why would people Lauren thought would let her in, not let her in? IMO, someone called/texted them about the altercation at SW while it was happening. If that were true, than you'd have to figure out which SW resident, or non-resident, tipped these women off and why they would do this to Lauren even though they knew she was quite dangerously vulnerable.
If LE has texts to these people who wouldn't let her in from Lauren's roommates or any of ZO's group at SW in those 25 minutes, then those people at the 10th and C apt should be POIs too. Because she very easily could've gone back there if she really did leave JRs.
This story, from the HT in July 2011, mentions the dangers of a cocaine/heroin speedball.
http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/07/18/news.qp-1176138.sto
"Powder cocaine can also be cut with other drugs, like heroin and amphetamines, according to the Indiana Prevention Resource Center. When mixed together, the effects of a cocaine and heroin speedball may mask the symptoms of an overdose."
I'm pretty sure I've read every article/ blog and every post here about Lauren's case, and I have not seen any indication or evidence that:
- Lauren was purposefully locked out of her apartment or anywhere else
- that her phone was stolen, hidden or tampered with
- that there is any kind of conspiracy involving LE
- that any of the POI (official or rumored) have anything to do with heroin or that heroin has anything to do with this case.
Just saying, fwiw
- Lauren was purposefully locked out of her apartment or anywhere else
- that her phone was stolen, hidden or tampered with
- that there is any kind of conspiracy involving LE
- that any of the POI (official or rumored) have anything to do with heroin or that heroin has anything to do with this case.
Just saying, fwiw
VeryVeritas
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It would be interesting to hear their reason for not letting Lauren in. I could see them being apprehensive (regardless of a tip off) of letting them both in or becoming involved in some drama with CR. Someone saw and heard Lauren smack her head on the concrete on those steps. Was it those same girls, or yet someone else? At the same time, Lauren may not have been able to speak at this point and didn't have her own phone. I fully agree that this appears to be an attempt to get away from CR and not go to 5N. It's one of those threads that supports the inconsistency with MB's making LS seems fine and wanting to party. She was out of it, wanting to get somewhere safe, and was not able to hold her own body up for very long. I have to also wonder why someone witnessing this did not call LE. If these girls were not asleep, and saw LS outside with CR, then why did they either not let her in, or why would they not call LE? Your suggestion of a tip off is curious. I'm not sure what ZO or anyone would say that would block them from both of these activities. I could see not opening the door... but why not call LE? Agree however that if someone did contact them during that time period it would be very interesting to know who and why. And I agree that CR knew what he was doing trying to get her to his place.
Further, you have highlighted one of those things that has bugged me about the CR/MB/JR stories it is the KISS, and seems designed that way. CR - you have amnesia so don't say anything (because anything CR says would unravel a thread). MB - just say he helped you put CR to bed(to explain the missing time) and sent her to JR's JR - feeling more confident about his lying skills gives more details and has more time to explain (seems to me he's only explained about 10 of the supposed 45 minutes to 1 hrs she was at his place). While this approach makes it harder to use anything they say against them... it does seem contrived.
Ixchel13
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what is incomprehensible is that all of these things could have happened and yet if she did, by some incredible means, walk away from JRs, there could still be 2 ideas: stranger abduction; or someone from the past night's activities doubling back and finding her.
The stranger abduction idea could be SO who grabs her, or also being be an inocuous delivery guy who's delivered something to her many times, tells her to jump in, he'll even swing by Kilroys to get her phone.
Now for acquaintance/friend/someone she had met scenario.Humor me and suppose she is walking down College to SW past 10th and College apt.
All along the street to her left are the cars of people visiting 10th and College. It would not be inconceivable at all for her to run right in to someone leaving 10th and College, someone involved in all this, even peripherally. And for that matter, it could be the other guy JR called, the one who had been watching the game with LS earlier at SW now at 10th and C and JR calls to say LS was walking his way. This could be the guy JR is protecting, he is not lying when he says the last time he saw her she was walking away.
The KISS thing could be looked at also in 2 ways: Too simple to believe; or that the easiest explanation is often the truth.
All these people are up all night except 2 people who went to bed, and 1 person who claims he doesn't remember anything. I can't remember anyone else in the whole scenario saying they went to bed so we can assume any of them are still up partying
at SW, 10th and College, or 5N and moving between all 3 places w. ease. If you are visiting 5N for example, sometimes you have to park down College all the way down to
10th and College, same for across the street up and down College. So any of these people could have been leaving either 5N or 10th and College and seen LS .
All this is based on the 25% chance she could have walked away. If something
else happened besides OD, then it had to happen in that area. That same 2 blocks that everyone involved was up and down that night.
The stranger abduction idea could be SO who grabs her, or also being be an inocuous delivery guy who's delivered something to her many times, tells her to jump in, he'll even swing by Kilroys to get her phone.
Now for acquaintance/friend/someone she had met scenario.Humor me and suppose she is walking down College to SW past 10th and College apt.
All along the street to her left are the cars of people visiting 10th and College. It would not be inconceivable at all for her to run right in to someone leaving 10th and College, someone involved in all this, even peripherally. And for that matter, it could be the other guy JR called, the one who had been watching the game with LS earlier at SW now at 10th and C and JR calls to say LS was walking his way. This could be the guy JR is protecting, he is not lying when he says the last time he saw her she was walking away.
The KISS thing could be looked at also in 2 ways: Too simple to believe; or that the easiest explanation is often the truth.
All these people are up all night except 2 people who went to bed, and 1 person who claims he doesn't remember anything. I can't remember anyone else in the whole scenario saying they went to bed so we can assume any of them are still up partying
at SW, 10th and College, or 5N and moving between all 3 places w. ease. If you are visiting 5N for example, sometimes you have to park down College all the way down to
10th and College, same for across the street up and down College. So any of these people could have been leaving either 5N or 10th and College and seen LS .
All this is based on the 25% chance she could have walked away. If something
else happened besides OD, then it had to happen in that area. That same 2 blocks that everyone involved was up and down that night.
VeryVeritas
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What is there evidence of? It really makes little difference to me exactly which substance or combination thereof did her in. If there were obvious evidence there would be a trial by now. So, don't really get your point.
VeryVeritas
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I'd extend no more than a 1% chance that she was in any condition to get up and walk out of JR's if she even made it that far. That's a Big Big IF. And then IF that IF were true, then most likely yes someone she knew and most likely linked directly to CR/MB/JR doubled back and followed her. The odds of CR/MB/JR all telling the truth, and a total stranger nabbing her are really too small for me to consider based on what is currently known. But it remains a very remote possibility.
VeryVeritas
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That's interesting... I've asked about parking several times... this is the first time someone said that people from 5N or visting 5N would park down near 10th and College. Thing is... this also fits very well with the 3:38 witness (if the time were really 3:38 or later). The 2 guys that saw Lauren's wallet and keys (one of them picking it up)... seemed to be coming from 10th & College area too but around 3:00. (Is it known where each of them parked or was coming from that night?). I would not be surprised if there were more people who were in the area, or looked outside and saw something. They may have come forward and LE is keeping their statements under wraps.
Also, If LE was watching all tapes as though someone left the lot behind 5N or was parked on 11th (most of which was no parking at the time).... but instead someone carried LS over to College and took a different route, LE might be looking at the wrong recordings of vehicles. There was also a lot of construction on College on that 10th & College building at the time. Not sure if there were any possible spots on that side of the street. But if so, a vehicle parked there would then travel south, not the same cameras as if a vehicle pulled out onto Morton.
I've also wondered if that buildings to the north of 10th & College building had cameras... It seems that at least one of them does, but there is no mention of video from there.
Ixchel13
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We do have some legit evidence, given by LE, the PI's, and the media. We also have named POIs and statements made by their lawyers.
Then we have speculation about people who are not named as POI's, and random ideas based on personal observations. There's nothing wrong with that, but in some of the recent posts, I don't see any differentiation made between the two. I think there should be a higher standard of providing some kind of evidence, or at least logic, especially when speculating about people who have not even been named as persons of interest in this case. That's my point.
Then why all the posts about heroin and "pharm parties"?
SmoothOperator
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Above bbm.. same for me.. The fact that there is just so damn little info, with nearly nil forward movement makes Lauren's case one of several that I've followed from the Get-Go but sadly have nothing personally to add that's not already being expressed and discussed..
I believe there's likely many of us that quietly follow along and don't go a day without thinking of the sad fact that tiny Lauren remains missing, and thus her precious family left in the hell on earth limbo of JUST NOT KNOWING.
As far as the above not being likely that this group of hard partying college kids would be able to get away with AND have so very effectively and efficiently covered AND concealed all of their tracks..well..IMO I respectfully, yet STRONGLY disagree.. one need not look any further than the group down in Satsuma, FL who are a helluva alot less capable, intelligent, savvy, wealthy, and even younger THAN THESE INDIVIDUALS IN BLOOMINGTON...yet they've managed for going on 4 years to get away with, cover, conceal, and successfully dispose of sweet little Haleigh Cummings...
so, IMO it hasn't anything to do with whether these POI's in Lauren's case are capable..IMO THEYRE MORE THAN CAPABLE...JMO,THO.
ITA deca and know firsthand that the dynamics of that early summer night of partying is absolutely SOP(Standard Operating Procedure) for a large percentage of young adults, especially that live on/near college campuses..
it IMO absolutely makes these young adults extremely vulnerable to any type predatory individuals(both individuals known to them as well as strangers).. along with having their inhibitions lowered(some just flat out zero inhibitions in this state of mind) they also have their defenses lowered or non existent..making them targeted, easy prey for the predatory individuals around them, or that they by happenstance cross paths with while in this completely unguarded state of mind..
IMO on the morning of Lauren's disappearance she was at the utmost of vulnerable, Even more so than normally ..and that's not just strictly to her being extremely wasted drunk/high, but even down to physically OVERLY VULNERABLE(even including hobbling barefoot), as well as NOT EVEN HAVING cell phone...
whether intentional or not she was EXTREMELY RIPE FOR THE PICKINS'(for extreme lack of a better phrase at this moment).. my point is simply that on this specific night/morning that Lauren disappeared she was EVEN MORE SO THAN USUAL extremely vulnerable and at an extreme disadvantage..and IMO that DISADVANTAGE definitely worked to the ADVANTAGE of the person(s) responsible for her disappearance that early June morning...jmo
above bbm.
Strictly Moo but this just isn't accurate, in fact IMO its much the opposite in that extremely drunk and/or high on benzos individuals are often very anxious to find someone to "party" with..or better yet someone who has the "party" that they're most in search of..that being something to in their minds "set them straight", sober them up, clear the haze, etc, etc whatever one chooses to call it...the point is they're looking for a bump, a line, a hit of cocaine, adderall, etc... or anything that has that similar effect of making the user feel more "alert", straight, or clear headed...
we know..or I should more accurately say we've discussed at great length and several of us are of the strong opinion these pharmaceuticals(both legal/illegal) were NOT unusual to be used by Lauren and friends.. and its exactly why I don't find it at all UNBELIEVABLE or FAR FETCHED that Lauren in those early morning hours was wanting a little something to "sober her up" and that IMO I find it very plausible that she easily could have achieved this from any number of various sources in/around 5N...
Lauren having gotten a bump or line of any number different stimulants WOULD HAVE ABSOLUTELY 100+% altered her ability to walk, her slurred speech could have been much clearer, if not clear, as well as the extreme feeling of euphoric high would have kicked in which as many know leave one with the feelings of being invincible(thus bull headed and determined to walk home, alone, barefoot, with no phone, no wallet, ID, or keys)..
In fact tho,I am in no way stating it as fact that Lauren did INDEED SET OFF ALONE WALKING TO SW, I do however find it not only plausible, but absolutely possible..jmo
Continuing to pray that Lauren's precious family be granted AT THE VERY LEAST the solace and somewhat peace of mind in JUST KNOWING what/where their beautiful, tiny, young daughter Lauren is..the hell of JUST NOT KNOWING if she is even dead or alive has literally already taken such an obvious and drastic toll on them physically and mentally..
Darcyline
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I see a lot of people saying "well there is no way THOSE people or THAT person could have done this and left little or no evidence!" but I think I have read Websleuths so much now that it seems easy to get away with crimes. I know that is probably wrong, but the sheer number of unsolved cases on here is staggering to me. A lot of them also have an obvious suspect and very few of those suspects are criminal masterminds or geniuses. It almost seems like more of a miracle when they DO leave enough forensic evidence and get arrested for it.
I probably sound very cynical-I know the numbers probably seem skewed to me just because of visiting this site and focusing on unsolved cases. I do never underestimate someone's ability to disappear someone though
I probably sound very cynical-I know the numbers probably seem skewed to me just because of visiting this site and focusing on unsolved cases. I do never underestimate someone's ability to disappear someone though
I still don't understand the insistence that she was trying to get away from CR. She had that opportunity at SW apparently. And she allegedly had protectors there that punched CR. How could he have taken her from there at this point against her will?
Also, the PI's reported a 'piggy-back' ride. That's not something that can happen without the 'rider' being a willing participant. Am I remembering the term the PI used when I say 'piggy back'? Initially I believe the term we heard (and I think the 3:38AM witness and Gatto is where this originated) was 'thrown over his shoulder' but IIRC the PI's clarified this to 'piggy-back' ride. Big difference in those two things.
I suppose at any point she could've changed her mind but why should we think that is the case? To be with him the amount of time she was, to follow after him after the SW incident, to ride 'piggy back'... none of this points to someone suddenly deciding it's time to go home.
Of course a rape scenario changes that line of thinking quickly.
Also, the PI's reported a 'piggy-back' ride. That's not something that can happen without the 'rider' being a willing participant. Am I remembering the term the PI used when I say 'piggy back'? Initially I believe the term we heard (and I think the 3:38AM witness and Gatto is where this originated) was 'thrown over his shoulder' but IIRC the PI's clarified this to 'piggy-back' ride. Big difference in those two things.
I suppose at any point she could've changed her mind but why should we think that is the case? To be with him the amount of time she was, to follow after him after the SW incident, to ride 'piggy back'... none of this points to someone suddenly deciding it's time to go home.
Of course a rape scenario changes that line of thinking quickly.
In the lohud video, the PI's describe this as Lauren being 'slung across [CR's] back', CR bent over and LS 'kind of dangling off his back' (he physically shows what he means). This prompts the reporter to ask if she was conscious, and the PI says yes, she was "alive and well... I mean, I don't know how well... but she was alive"
http://www.lohud.com/VideoNetwork/1662569062001/Lauren-Spierer-interactive?nclick_check=1 @ around 4 min.
But it does sound like up until that point, she was with CR willingly, although her judgment was obviously impaired.
I wish it was clearer from that video what came from a witness account. It's hard to tell.
SmoothOperator
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I agree its difficult to discern exactly where the female witness' account ends and when the account of the last video footage from cam near Rossman's apt begins/ends...
For instance I was under the impression the female witness' acct begins around the time that they stop for the first seat on the steps out front apt building..Lauren two steps higher than Rossman...that the witness not only SEES, BUT ALSO HEARS the loud sound of Lauren slumping over on concrete steps and banging her head on the concrete...
I then understand that Rossman helped her up and they walked into the apt building and knocked on the door of 4 girls they were partying with earlier in the night...when they got no answer about a minute later they reappeared outside on the concrete steps to which they again sat down(I was understanding this to still be the acct of the female witness, right?)
at that point again Lauren is seen very messed up and literally seeming to slump, fall, etc,.. that Rossman gets her up from the steps to head onto his apt(Lauren leaves behind her keys AND ID on steps)... I was still under the impression as this acct coming from witness...
at that point Lauren and Rossman go into an alley heading to his apt..that Lauren literally went face first into the asphalt WITHOUT SO MUCH AS EVEN PUTTING HER ARMS OUT TO BRACE HERSELF AS SHE FELL FACE FIRST INTO ASPHALT!<-- This I was unclear on whether it came from witness acct or the video footage near the alleyway??
Rossman again picks her up and they keep heading to his apt.. shortly thereafter Lauren again collapses and falls to the ground...at that point Rossman slings her on his back with her arms slung over each shoulder and held by him while she dangled off his back, rather than grasping on with her legs as one would do "piggy back".. as Abbey says above PI is clear on the fact that Lauren was definitely still alive and somewhat conscious AT THAT POINT IN TIME...<--IMO I was under the impression this last SIGHTING WAS ALSO THE WITNESS, CORRECT?
So, when and what was seen on the video footage last seen of Lauren and Rossman from one of the cams near his apt?
TIA for any clarification anyone can provide
For instance I was under the impression the female witness' acct begins around the time that they stop for the first seat on the steps out front apt building..Lauren two steps higher than Rossman...that the witness not only SEES, BUT ALSO HEARS the loud sound of Lauren slumping over on concrete steps and banging her head on the concrete...
I then understand that Rossman helped her up and they walked into the apt building and knocked on the door of 4 girls they were partying with earlier in the night...when they got no answer about a minute later they reappeared outside on the concrete steps to which they again sat down(I was understanding this to still be the acct of the female witness, right?)
at that point again Lauren is seen very messed up and literally seeming to slump, fall, etc,.. that Rossman gets her up from the steps to head onto his apt(Lauren leaves behind her keys AND ID on steps)... I was still under the impression as this acct coming from witness...
at that point Lauren and Rossman go into an alley heading to his apt..that Lauren literally went face first into the asphalt WITHOUT SO MUCH AS EVEN PUTTING HER ARMS OUT TO BRACE HERSELF AS SHE FELL FACE FIRST INTO ASPHALT!<-- This I was unclear on whether it came from witness acct or the video footage near the alleyway??
Rossman again picks her up and they keep heading to his apt.. shortly thereafter Lauren again collapses and falls to the ground...at that point Rossman slings her on his back with her arms slung over each shoulder and held by him while she dangled off his back, rather than grasping on with her legs as one would do "piggy back".. as Abbey says above PI is clear on the fact that Lauren was definitely still alive and somewhat conscious AT THAT POINT IN TIME...<--IMO I was under the impression this last SIGHTING WAS ALSO THE WITNESS, CORRECT?
So, when and what was seen on the video footage last seen of Lauren and Rossman from one of the cams near his apt?
TIA for any clarification anyone can provide
Darcyline
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I have never really thought Lauren was trying to get away from CR. I do think at some point she lost consciousness or as good as lost consciousness though which makes what happened afterward with her and CR more problematic.
Thanks.
As for the PI account, did they even get to view the videos? I'm surprised LE would actually share those with the PI's unless LE has copies and the original videos still exist with the camera owners and the PI's saw them from that.
So on one hand I want to take the PI account as the most definitive account we've heard, and on the other I wonder how much of it is 2nd and 3rd hand info that they are using (leaks) rather than their own eyes on the video for example.
Maybe LE did share the videos with them... I have no idea. It just seems like something that wouldn't have happened.
As for the PI account, did they even get to view the videos? I'm surprised LE would actually share those with the PI's unless LE has copies and the original videos still exist with the camera owners and the PI's saw them from that.
So on one hand I want to take the PI account as the most definitive account we've heard, and on the other I wonder how much of it is 2nd and 3rd hand info that they are using (leaks) rather than their own eyes on the video for example.
Maybe LE did share the videos with them... I have no idea. It just seems like something that wouldn't have happened.
Ixchel13
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Discrepancies in the supposed PI report. You cannot get to people's doors at 10th and C without a key card . But down in the alley between the Villages and 10th and College that LS was last seen in, they have garage apts. The alley is so narrow I always wondered how they got the cars in. This is the first I've heard of them going in and out of the building. Inside 10th and College apts you can go down the elevator without a key only to the parking garage next to the alley, but can't get back up unless someone buzzes you. The retail elevator key only takes you to the parking garage and back to your shop. You can't access any other
floor let alone door. If they entered the door at the top of those steps, they had someone's key. Had to. Also, I never said she was trying to get away from CR, I said she may have never intended to go back to 5N
floor let alone door. If they entered the door at the top of those steps, they had someone's key. Had to. Also, I never said she was trying to get away from CR, I said she may have never intended to go back to 5N
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