IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29

[sammi89]

http://www.lohud.com/article/20130531/NEWS/305310114/Lauren-Spierer-s-friends-struggle-moving-

Tamir was friends with graduate Jay Rosenbaum, who was the last person known to see Spierer before she went missing. She said she supports the Spierer family in their effort to get Rosenbaum and three other students to be more forthcoming with authorities.

“I do not know what the boys are up to these days,” Tamir said, “and I wish that the select few that could really help out the Spierers and cooperate with them would finally do so.”

I remember wondering when HT was first criticized for defending the 5N boys if she would ever question that. HT was friends with them and I'm sure she could never imagine the 5N boys, especially JR, possibly being involved. Sounds like she did not stay in touch and is no longer so eager to defend them. I wonder what changed her mind? Hopefully, if she has truly had a change of heart, she has shared why with the Spierers or authorities.

 

[sammi89]

Hosting a party and inviting under-aged drinkers is a crime called contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Admitting such could open himself up to civil liabilities and legal problems. So, I understand he might wish to say the alcohol was gone when she arrived.

If they pursue a civil suit, perhaps they could use something like that. I wonder how long they have known about ZC?

http://www.lohud.com/article/20130531/NEWS/305310113

Indiana University student Zoe Camp saw Lauren Spierer swallowing shots at a party hours before she disappeared, but remains haunted by another encounter with the missing coed she slept through.....

....It wasn’t until recently that Camp reached out to Spierer’s family, and also shared her observations with The Journal News in a phone interview and email exchanges.

I wonder if there is an applicable statute of limitations?

It would be interesting to see if that would bring anything new to light, or if JR would even respond.

 

[mfunky]

JW's parents have talked. Wow, I wonder who will be next. Angry people talking to the media are likely to speak without thinking....this case needs more of that!

http://www.lohud.com/article/201306...riend-s-parents-fume-accusations-police-media

I'm still digesting this. I thought NW's comment on LS was uncalled for, but at the same time, since her son is a POI and that was mentioned....potentially it will lead to more information coming out. Maybe more POI's will be more at ease to discuss her condition and habits. Who knows.

And for the record- JW could easily take an FBI administered poly in NYC, like DR did. It doesn't necessarily have to be done by Bloomington PD. I never thought he was involved, but comments and bad excuses like this one are really making me wonder what he's hiding (I still can't see him being directly involved).

And if he's so torn up about losing the love of his life (which is believable), you'd think he would do whatever it takes to get answers and to help out the Spierer family, and just take the FBI administered poly (by a current FBI agent)!!!!!

 

[Ros]

Hosting a party and inviting under-aged drinkers is a crime called contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Admitting such could open himself up to civil liabilities and legal problems. So, I understand he might wish to say the alcohol was gone when she arrived.

As I recall, no charges were filed nor was there a lawsuit in the death of Purdue student Patrick Trainor, a minor who had been drinking at someone's home before he drove into a retention pond.


http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/local/marion_county/coroner-patrick-trainors-death-accidental?amp&amp
http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/local/hamilton_county/no-charges-filed-in-death-of-purdue-freshman

 

[mfunky]

JR's comments are definitely interesting, especially given the points people have recently made about "running out of alcohol" that contradicts the new information. Also interesting in light of how they are okay acknlowleding drug use, just not the alcohol. Weird. Drinking is such a college staple that I'm not sure what the big deal is in denying that, but not the drugs. I'd guess because acknowledging her possible drug intake makes it seem more like it was LS' fault.

Maybe it had something to do with the fact that JR provided the alcohol and it was at his apartment (where he could be held responsible for providing alcohol to a minor), whereas the drugs were apparently taken by LS and DR at Smallwood (which JR did not supply and the consumption did not occur at his residence).

It just seems to me like a majority of JR's take of that night isn't a recollection of what occurred, but more so a defensive script.

 

[Ros]

I do understand why you are skeptical about the Smallwood encounter, but do you have any links pointing to where this was, in fact, actually NOT out of pure concern for LS? Every time CR has spoken to the media, he has been lashing out. Jupiter just posted how he is rumored to be acting on campus/in class,etc. These are all behaviors he demonstrates while completely sober. Based on that information, I don't think it's unreasonable to think his behavior while intoxicated could be extremely obnoxious and given LS' reported condition, I don't think it is unreasonable that strangers would be concerned. If CR responded anything like he has in the media, I can totally see a hot-headed kid punching him, especially if he had been partying elsewhere too.

I also thought ZO & co. were NOT friends with JW? I know it was initially unclear, but I thought it was later decided they actually weren't friends?

I definitely agree that JW should be critically looked at, but always in context. Sure, he had the classic motive, but there has been zero evidence even hinting that JW knew what was happening or was around (that the public has been alerted to). He was also the one to call the parents. I definitely think he should be looked at because he would have had the classic motive, fortunately or unfortunately. However, in my own opinion, he would only be the number 1 POI if CR, MB, JR, AND JR's guests had already been ruled out (and there are definitely scenarios that would not involve ALL CR, MB, JR, and JR's guests). I do think that JW should be examined before a random abduction though. Although both seem unlikely based on the known public evidence (JW wasn't around/might not have known about the night's events and the white truck was ruled out), at least JW would have motive.

I feel for the Spierers. I can at least come up with plausible reasons JW would no longer want to be involved (it sounds like LS and JW may have been on the rocks, he might have been furious she ditched him and sent some nasty texts that in hindsight look really bad), but none make it okay morally to not continue talking. Again, legally, I agree JW does not need to continue talks. Morally though, LS was his long-term girlfriend. I do not understand why he isn't doing more.

I have even less sympathy for the 5N boys. Unlike JW, they were with her that night. They saw (and probably provided) whatever she had. They were supposedly the last to see her. I understand the need to protect one's own interests, but I would hope that they would consider finding their friend as something in their best interest, even if it were purely for their own selfish peace of mind and removal from public scrutiny.

I think someone went through Facebook once to see who was "friends" with whom, and there was no obvious connection between ZO and JW.

Giving initials for persons who have already had their names or initials in the media in connection with this case:

ZO is friends with AB
JW is friends with AWG, AR, BW, SG, and RS

I suspect that ZC heard the initial rumor that the guys who punched CR were friends of JW and never bothered to find out if it was true.

 

[Ixchel13]

" I once witnessed a bartender tell Jay that he would be allowed in when Lauren was found.” BBM, quote by Zoe Camp, the woman who was supposedly asleep when Lauren was ringing her doorbell.
Weird, bet it was Kilroy's bartender, and if so I think that is a little over-played on their part. After all, they served her. And if Zoe Camp is the 10th and College resident, is she also a bartender? Because when Lauren was ringing the doorbell, another woman said to be a bartender saw Lauren hit her head, somewhere around the time she was trying to ring Zoe.
This is the witness I don't trust. She was either involved in the situation with Lauren and CR, or she is somehow covering for someone, possibly the perp or maddeningly, someone also involved in the highjinx of the evening but not the critical outcome.
Also, I think JW's parents are deplorable. How they wish their son was just "helping" Lauren, what a bunch of BS. He was most likely spoon feeding her the drugs. The way JW's parents are talking, poor kid was doing everything he could to keep her away from drugs...do they really think he was
not taking/selling them?!! Schmucks. JMHO
Now IMO, it's JW or unknown stranger/acquaintance.

 

[akh]

Sure, he had the classic motive, but there has been zero evidence even hinting that JW knew what was happening or was around (that the public has been alerted to).

Exactly.
Technically we don't know what evidence does or does not exist since the media hasn't went down this road much if at all, and LE has been extremely tight-lipped.

So just because there hasn't been a lot of noise doesn't mean there's not more there in the files of the investigators (or not). We're really only privy to either the areas that media probes... or the obviously limited information that people like the Spierers, LE, and the PI's want to share. Also, it is becoming increasingly clear that there are competing definitions of the word 'cooperation' between how the Spierers define it and how the PsOI and their attorneys and families define it.

 

[mfunky]

I think someone went through Facebook once to see who was "friends" with whom, and there was no obvious connection between ZO and JW.

Giving initials for persons who have already had their names or initials in the media in connection with this case:

ZO is friends with AB
JW is friends with AWG, AR, BW, SG, and RS

I suspect that ZC heard the initial rumor that the guys who punched CR were friends of JW and never bothered to find out if it was true.

About an hour ago I posted a link to an article about JW's parents talking to a reporter. If I wasn't viewing this on my phone I would just copy the link here, but you'll see it in one of the last posts on the previous page, page 33. There's a blurb about how CR's friend ZC said that CR knew that night that he got in a fight with some of JW's friends. And for the record, I don't think it's that big of a deal if they aren't Facebook friends. I feel like girls are a lot more proactive about adding friends than guys are. I know tons of guys who are great friends and hang out all the time, and they all aren't necessarily Facebook friends.

 

[akh]

I do understand why you are skeptical about the Smallwood encounter, but do you have any links pointing to where this was, in fact, actually NOT out of pure concern for LS?

But with the small amount of followup there's actually been about this confrontation I have many questions. If there was such concern about LS then why did they let her leave at all? Did nobody follow? Did anybody call a mutual friend or even authorities for help for her? Was there some reason that they had a special concern for LS? What brought these people together at that moment in the first place... just chance or was something bubbling? Of course, connections with jilted wannabe suitors or boyfriend would also be a question I'd want to know the answer to.

I just think it's odd that on the night she goes missing there's a confrontation like this that rose to the level of violence, yet they just let her leave with apparently little more than a shrug. And it's all just coincidental with no relevance?

Of course LE might have plenty answers but they aren't really in the public forum. We're not even sure the questions have been asked as far as media is concerned because they seemed to have taken a different road from early on.

 

[mfunky]

" I once witnessed a bartender tell Jay that he would be allowed in when Lauren was found.” BBM, quote by Zoe Camp, the woman who was supposedly asleep when Lauren was ringing her doorbell.
Weird, bet it was Kilroy's bartender, and if so I think that is a little over-played on their part. After all, they served her. And if Zoe Camp is the 10th and College resident, is she also a bartender? Because when Lauren was ringing the doorbell, another woman said to be a bartender saw Lauren hit her head, somewhere around the time she was trying to ring Zoe.
This is the witness I don't trust. She was either involved in the situation with Lauren and CR, or she is somehow covering for someone, possibly the perp or maddeningly, someone also involved in the highjinx of the evening but not the critical outcome.
Also, I think JW's parents are deplorable. How they wish their son was just "helping" Lauren, what a bunch of BS. He was most likely spoon feeding her the drugs. The way JW's parents are talking, poor kis was doing everything he could to keep her away from drugs...do they really think he was
not taking/selling them?!! Schmucks. JMHO
Now IMO, it's JW or unknown stranger/acquaintance.

Yeah, I think JW's parents story is weak and horrible too. If LS was as out of control as JW's mom claimed, and JW cared for LS as much as he and his mom claimed, then one would think he wouldn't care if LS threatened to break up with him for alerting her parents of her drug problem....he would be more concerned about getting her help.

It seems like the parents of the POI's want to blame LS for what happened to her that night, and excuse their children of any responsibility and wrongdoing. Additionally, it's like their parents are enabling them to adopt the "victim" role. It's really disgusting. If LS consumed any alcohol or drug substances, yes that was her decision. But the fault of failing to call 911 and then conceiling her whereabouts is 100% on whoever was with LS at that time. Suggesting LS is at fault for that part is absolutely disgusting. Attempting to tarnish LS's name and placing blame on her does not make your son innocent, and it makes you look like a heartless human being.

 

[Ixchel13]

Both would be at the top of the list of the most likely theories.
If you take out stranger abduction then you have either the guy with her on video and with witnesses, showing and talking about her condition... Or the boyfriend that she'd not met up with that evening, not (apparently) contacted, and she was out with someone else leaving him with the most obvious (and classic) motive.

So it would make sense they both have the most to fear from LE and prosecution and could be the most fearful of being wrongly suspected. Which could explain their 'distance'.

CR has MB and JR apparently alibiing his story though (and maybe JR had guests that also alibied him). No idea if JW has an alibi beyond 'sleeping' and how ironclad that could be (could he have left and returned undetected?).

So it's a conspiracy vs jilted boyfriend at the top of the list IMHO. ...Unless you believe that CR and MB are truthful and JR is the real culprit. But if he had houseguests then either they had to be in a position of no knowledge or also part of a conspiracy.

I've said for a long time that JW IMHO gets too much benefit of the doubt here. I think a large part of that is because the parents initially shifted the blame from him and I don't think they had good reason for that except that they 'knew' him and so it made it harder for them to see him as capable of anything versus these 3 men from 5N that they'd probably never heard of before. I think this was a mistake on their part. It narrowed public and media focus too much when there was a bigger picture to be explored.

I still believe the confrontation at Smallwood is odd and mighty coincidental not to have been some kind of a factor and/or a missing link in the case.

Again, I think the narrow focus has allowed this event to escape the scrutiny it otherwise would have. You'd think the media could investigate this more thoroughly and at least take some mystery out of it, or tie it to some broader possibilities. But when the public and media focus on the guys at 5N so thoroughly it makes the SW confrontation just seem to be a footnote in the timeline more than a crucial piece of the puzzle needing to be better explored.

IMHO....

^^^^^^good post^^^^^^

 

[Ixchel13]

ok the Zoe Camp development raises a few issues. Did she also know the bartender witness? I mean did Zoe know the outside witness? Are there more than one outside witnesses? Zoe somehow knows that Lauren was trying to ring her apt., but she never offers a reason why Lauren would be doing so. Everyone assumes it was drugs, but was Lauren tryng to find her phone?

 

[Snapfade]

Yeah, I think JW's parents story is weak and horrible too. If LS was as out of control as JW's mom claimed, and JW cared for LS as much as he and his mom claimed, then one would think he wouldn't care if LS threatened to break up with him for alerting her parents of her drug problem....he would be more concerned about getting her help.

It seems like the parents of the POI's want to blame LS for what happened to her that night, and excuse their children of any responsibility and wrongdoing. Additionally, it's like their parents are enabling them to adopt the "victim" role. It's really disgusting. If LS consumed any alcohol or drug substances, yes that was her decision. But the fault of failing to call 911 and then conceiling her whereabouts is 100% on whoever was with LS at that time. Suggesting LS is at fault for that part is absolutely disgusting. Attempting to tarnish LS's name and placing blame on her does not make your son innocent, and it makes you look like a heartless human being.

After reading Mrs. W's insights about LS's Drug abuse, it makes me think JW might be in the middle of her dissapearence. After all, "Birds of a Feather Flock Together". Maybe the drugs were the reason she dated JW... Users date Dealers ! Thats a Fact ! For JW's mom to protray her son as the victim Of his Drug Addict Girlfriend is, well, Laughable.... IMO , it ranks right there with CR's amnesia and MB saying LS asked him to go
party...IM definitely not taking her word on the polygraph administrators credentials.

 

[mfunky]

ok the Zoe Camp development raises a few issues. Did she also know the bartender witness? I mean did Zoe know the outside witness? Are there more than one outside witnesses? Zoe somehow knows that Lauren was trying to ring her apt., but she never offers a reason why Lauren would be doing so. Everyone assumes it was drugs, but was Lauren tryng to find her phone?

The ZC development isn't really new, this is just the first time she has talked to a reporter, I believe. LS didn't knock on the door of ZC's apartment- CR did. This was all included in that video the PI released about a year ago, when they recapped what they knew and released a bunch of evidence. CR was captured on video surveillance knocking on ZC's door, and I believe he was carrying LS at this point? This occurred between leaving Smallwood and arriving at 5N (if that happened). Based upon evidence the PI revealed in that video, it was determined CR was the person witness(Es) mentioned when describing a man carrying LS.

 

[Ixchel13]

Yeah, I think JW's parents story is weak and horrible too. If LS was as out of control as JW's mom claimed, and JW cared for LS as much as he and his mom claimed, then one would think he wouldn't care if LS threatened to break up with him for alerting her parents of her drug problem....he would be more concerned about getting her help.

It seems like the parents of the POI's want to blame LS for what happened to her that night, and excuse their children of any responsibility and wrongdoing. Additionally, it's like their parents are enabling them to adopt the "victim" role. It's really disgusting. If LS consumed any alcohol or drug substances, yes that was her decision. But the fault of failing to call 911 and then conceiling her whereabouts is 100% on whoever was with LS at that time. Suggesting LS is at fault for that part is absolutely disgusting. Attempting to tarnish LS's name and placing blame on her does not make your son innocent, and it makes you look like a heartless human being.

BIUBM. JW's parents give us the first inkling of what these parents of the POIs are feeling.
All of them should face the fact that their kids are drugging little boozers. Then, they can proceed. But will they proceed from this point? To admit that their kids were imbibing intoxicants that evening, and not just imbibing, maybe even providing, drugs and alcohol that caused their friend to either OD or go into the night to her peril would be to end their child's chance of being...someone important, someone representing their
family and they couldn't have that. We have seen this in the parents of Jesse, IMO.

 

[sammi89]

Exactly.
Technically we don't know what evidence does or does not exist since the media hasn't went down this road much if at all, and LE has been extremely tight-lipped.

So just because there hasn't been a lot of noise doesn't mean there's not more there in the files of the investigators (or not). We're really only privy to either the areas that media probes... or the obviously limited information that people like the Spierers, LE, and the PI's want to share. Also, it is becoming increasingly clear that there are competing definitions of the word 'cooperation' between how the Spierers define it and how the PsOI and their attorneys and families define it.

Right. That's what I said. The evidence the public actually knows about. There might be more, there probably is more, but I still think that based on what is PUBLICLY known the known facts surrounding the 5N boys is much more sketchy than the known about the facts surrounding JW or a random abduction.

That doesn't mean I don't think JW might be responsible. He could be, but it would take a lot more information for me to suspect him over the 5N boys. That said, what is publicly known about the 5N guys isn't enough either obviously, otherwise the case would be closed. Additionally, the latest from JW's parents is upsetting too. I know it has largely been assumed LS has passed on, but it was disheartening to read JW's parents lash out at LS herself and say her own drug abuse caused her death. If she was the love of his life, you would think they would hold onto some hope of her return, however unlikely. Additionally, as "the love of his life," his parents should be more respectful and not publicly degrade LS, especially since LS will likely never be able to refute those kind of statements. Comments like those seem meant purely to hurt the Spierers. I'm sure if it had been JW missing and LS refusing to speak, his parents would be equally baffled, hurt, and furious.


That said, I also find it weird when I think about why some of these guys wouldn't just take the test. JR probably has the most understandable reason why he wouldn't want to take one - he's the last one to see her. If he's innocent, he might be worried about taking one and failing for some reason or another. JW, if innocent, might also not want to take one out of fear or whatever given he's the boyfriend and the usual number 1 suspect. I really don't get why CR isn't more forthcoming though. Sure he saw her, but he also passed her off to MB and JR and then went to bed according to their story. Of all of them, I don't understand his position.

It's just disappointing and upsetting that the 5N boys have not been more forthcoming so that they can be ruled out (if they should be) and the focus can shift to 1) whether JW had reason to know where she was and may have done something or 2) random abduction. Truly, even if they are innocent, I doubt I would feel bad for them based on their actions. I am shocked that grown, educated adults (including JW's parents! wow. shame on them) would treat LS' memory so terribly. Even if she did abuse drugs, no one deserves this, and her family certainly does not deserve this kind of prolonged pain.

 

[sammi89]

But with the small amount of followup there's actually been about this confrontation I have many questions. If there was such concern about LS then why did they let her leave at all? Did nobody follow? Did anybody call a mutual friend or even authorities for help for her? Was there some reason that they had a special concern for LS? What brought these people together at that moment in the first place... just chance or was something bubbling? Of course, connections with jilted wannabe suitors or boyfriend would also be a question I'd want to know the answer to.

I just think it's odd that on the night she goes missing there's a confrontation like this that rose to the level of violence, yet they just let her leave with apparently little more than a shrug. And it's all just coincidental with no relevance?

Of course LE might have plenty answers but they aren't really in the public forum. We're not even sure the questions have been asked as far as media is concerned because they seemed to have taken a different road from early on.

I think I understand where you're coming from and I totally agree that the lack of public follow-up is interesting. I just don't think that necessarily might mean much. I get the vibe you are less critical of the 5N bunch and want more focus on JW & random abductions theories and I totally agree that these are viable options. I just don't think there's a lot known publicly (yet?) to give those theories more weight.

I do think IF a connection can be made from someone with ZO & co. to JW, JW should definitely be looked at more critically, especially if any of his texts to LS were weird or if they were deleted. Sidenote/question: I believe you can call up your cell phone provider and get the numbers a phone was texting to and the times, but can you get the actual message? Just wondering. Even if the Spierers could not do this, I would think LE could (if it is possible).

However, I think it is equally likely that there really wasn't much to the fight except that ZO & Co. noticed LS was in bad shape and asked about her. I'm not even sure if it has been reported whether or not anyone in that group actually knew of LS? That really doesn't seem too strange given that a second, separate witness would later ask if LS needed help too because of her condition and behavior.

Given that all members had likely been drinking, I can see CR getting mouthy, CR and ZO & co. exchanging some unpleasantries, CR taking it too far (in ZO's mind) and ZO decks him. I think this probably would have gone more like the second witness' encounter (she asked, CR said he was handeling it, and the witness went on with her life), but because it involved two heated males who had been drinking, it turned into an argument (that had nothing to do with LS and was more about how CR responded to ZO) that led to a punch. Had an argument not occured, perhaps ZO would have chosen to go on with his life instead of resorting to violence.

Again, that's pure speculation, but if CR is prone to lashing out like he has in the media, I wouldn't be shocked if it was just about how CR was speaking to ZO.

However, if a connection can be made to JW and it can be confirmed one way or another whether JW was contacted, I would think JW is starting to look pretty bad too, especially because his parents just confirmed that LS told him she was going to bed. I can definitely see how a boyfriend might be very, very upset to learn that his long-term girlfriend, whom he was rumored to be on the rocks with, had lied to him about going to bed and was really off with a guy known to be interested in her. With the conflicting information about whether one of ZO & co. was friends with JW coming back up, LoHud should investigate that. Big kudos to them for the current information coming out though!

 

[VeryVeritas]

Maybe it had something to do with the fact that JR provided the alcohol and it was at his apartment (where he could be held responsible for providing alcohol to a minor), whereas the drugs were apparently taken by LS and DR at Smallwood (which JR did not supply and the consumption did not occur at his residence).

It just seems to me like a majority of JR's take of that night isn't a recollection of what occurred, but more so a defensive script.

Agreed that JR's account is carefully crafted or "defensive script" as you put it.

However, not quite agreeing with your statement about JR in relation to drug use. I recall statements attributed to JR where he did say they had run out of alcohol before LS arrived but that he did indicate drug use was going on (at his place). I might be inclined to think that while the drug consumption he may have been referring to was merely pot smoking(but would like to know otherwise - why would he say "drug use" instead of list them specifically? And agree that he may have lied about the Alcohol because there would be culpability. And then any drug use outside (for example your reference to DR and whatever may have gone down at SW with DR) of JR's would not likely have been in the scope of his statement.

 

[jjenny]

As far as I can tell, JR hasn't admitted providing anyone with any drugs.
There is the lohud article. He claims he heard that LS used drugs, not that he provided her with any.

"Rosenbaum told investigators that either Spierer or Rohn told him they’d crushed up and snorted klonopin, a drug used for seizures and panic attacks, beforehand and that he believed they’d also taken cocaine. Spierer’s family and investigators said they have no information that she consumed cocaine. The Journal News has learned that police later found a packet of the white powder in the apartment she shared with three roommates."

http://www.lohud.com/article/201206...ered-away-after-night-heavy-drinking-drug-use