IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #30

[imkeylime]

JMO, but for some reason I feel like they, IOW, her roomamates and possibly ZC, were looking for her the night/early morning she went missing. It's back to the phone calls and her phone, I think there was communication between several people who haven't been mentioned per se as POIs, and they knew Lauren didn't make it back to SW. I'm beginning to think she did leave 5N, that doesn't necessarily clear anyone there especially DB because someone could have followed her as she left, but I think there was at least one more phone call from JRs, and then that phone call led to other texts, and people, i.e. roommates, JW, were looking for her after she left and someone. either random or not, did find her and brought her to X location. If we could just imagine that she could have left, leaving her at large, then the possibilities go way up for others' involvement, including of course but not limiting the 5N POIs.

Respectfully snipped by me. I just wanted to add: If there were people who knew LS out looking for her (i.e., roommates, ZO, DB, JW, POIs), I'd think it would less likely be a random abduction, since the area is so contained. Unless, of course, she left earlier than JR reported. If someone from 5N immediately followed her, the envelope for a random abduction seems short. Another variable to consider ...

 

[monkey222]

What do we know of JWs exact alibi? Who, what roomates, housemates, others saw him from, lets say,...8p Thurs nite to 10amish Fri am. . He was watching game? sleeping at what time. Which people in his house saw him in his room..sleeping..waking up..going to kitchen..etc..what do we know???

 

[Ros]

What do we know of JWs exact alibi? Who, what roomates, housemates, others saw him from, lets say,...8p Thurs nite to 10amish Fri am. . He was watching game? sleeping at what time. Which people in his house saw him in his room..sleeping..waking up..going to kitchen..etc..what do we know???

As far as I know, all we have are the PT posts of AWG, who claimed to be JW's roommate.

 

[imkeylime]

Respectfully snipped by me. I just wanted to add: If there were people who knew LS out looking for her (i.e., roommates, ZO, DB, JW, POIs), I'd think it would less likely be a random abduction, since the area is so contained. Unless, of course, she left earlier than JR reported. If someone from 5N immediately followed her, the envelope for a random abduction seems short. Another variable to consider ...

Responding to my own post, since it's too late to edit: Additionally, wouldn't someone have shown up on camera? I still wonder if she could have been stashed by the 5N dumpster (behind the fence) by whomever and picked up via car from that location or a spot like it. Just a thought.

 

[Jupiter812]

Respectfully snipped by me. I just wanted to add: If there were people who knew LS out looking for her (i.e., roommates, ZO, DB, JW, POIs), I'd think it would less likely be a random abduction, since the area is so contained. Unless, of course, she left earlier than JR reported. If someone from 5N immediately followed her, the envelope for a random abduction seems short. Another variable to consider ...

It's quite possible that JR is not only lying about the time she allegedly left but the direction as well.

Just a friendly reminder to all of us that JR's apt was the last one on the west side of the building, a few steps from Morton St. sidewalk and opposite direction from College. And the LoHud map shows this as her and CR's route. But as you have often suggested, she could have stopped at CR's again after leaving JR's.

 

[Jupiter812]

Responding to my own post, since it's too late to edit: Additionally, wouldn't someone have shown up on camera? I still wonder if she could have been stashed by the 5N dumpster (behind the fence) by whomever and picked up via car from that location or a spot like it. Just a thought.

All bets are off if she was taken beyond (northerly direction) the sidewalk where her wristlet was found. No cameras beyond that point.

 

[imkeylime]

It's quite possible that JR is not only lying about the time she allegedly left but the direction as well.

Just a friendly reminder to all of us that JR's apt was the last one on the west side of the building, a few steps from Morton St. sidewalk and opposite direction from College. And the LoHud map shows this as her and CR's route. But as you have often suggested, she could have stopped at CR's again after leaving JR's.

Thanks, Jupiter! I'm directionally challenged on a good day (and in my own county). And yes, I've thought that ... maybe she wanted to get away from something at JR's but knew she couldn't go far? Or maybe she thought CR had her belongings? If she could leave at all, which is the big question.

 

[Jupiter812]

Thanks, Jupiter! I'm directionally challenged on a good day (and in my own county). And yes, I've thought that ... maybe she wanted to get away from something at JR's but knew she couldn't go far? Or maybe she thought CR had her belongings? If she could leave at all, which is the big question.

Honestly, my instinct says that if she did go back to CR's she did so to be with him. After all, it appears that she did like him and want to be with him; she had already followed him out of Smallwood; and she was attached to him literally for part of the evening. It's sort of a combination of lost and confused plus hormonal attraction.

If she did return to CR's it's just her and MB since CR is purportedly in bed. I doubt she can climb the stairs to his room, at least not unassisted. That's all the farther I care to speculate. :-(

 

[AbbeyR]

Honestly, my instinct says that if she did go back to CR's she did so to be with him. After all, it appears that she did like him and want to be with him; she had already followed him out of Smallwood; and she was attached to him literally for part of the evening. It's sort of a combination of lost and confused plus hormonal attraction.

If she did return to CR's it's just her and MB since CR is purportedly in bed. I doubt she can climb the stairs to his room, at least not unassisted. That's all the farther I care to speculate. :-(

The descriptions of Lauren from the time they left the bar (so the entire time they were alone together) were: She was 'incapacitated', 'totally out of it', 'in a stupor'. People who described the interaction between Lauren and Corey didn't describe them as getting together or even as friends -- they said he was acting inappropriately and "bothering her". According to the reports about the video at Smallwood, CR picked her up and "helped her" out of Smallwood -- she didn't follow him out, as Gatto suggested. And then he "carried" "dragged" and "pulled" her to back to his place. So, IMO, saying she 'wanted to be with him/ go home with him' isn't really a fair assumption, even though it's one that is made here all the time.

The only thing that seems obvious to me is that she was attached to him because she couldn't walk on her own.

 

[Jupiter812]

The descriptions of Lauren from the time they left the bar (so the entire time they were alone together) were: She was 'incapacitated', 'totally out of it', 'in a stupor'. People who described the interaction between Lauren and Corey didn't describe them as getting together or even as friends -- they said he was acting inappropriately and "bothering her". According to the reports about the video at Smallwood, CR picked her up and "helped her" out of Smallwood -- she didn't follow him out, as Gatto suggested. And then he "carried" "dragged" and "pulled" her to back to his place. So, IMO, saying she 'wanted to be with him/ go home with him' isn't really a fair assumption, even though it's one that is made here all the time.

The only thing that seems obvious to me is that she was attached to him because she couldn't walk on her own.

Most of what you said I agree with but I am not making any assumptions. I shared my "instinct" fwiw if she went back to CR's. Thank you for correcting me about her leaving SW; I knew that but forgot it (unconsciously perhaps because it bolstered my own "position".)

Some related thoughts:

There does seem to be a relationship b/w them meeting up at the 500 and meeting up at JR's again soon after. I can imagine JR calling her and saying "so and so will be here and so will CR--he'd like to see you again."

Certainly she knew CR was interested in her. According to an article or timeline, I don't recall where, she was alone with CR at his apt after they left JR's and before Sports. I might be mis-remembering this but if true, it is important and telling.

To be objective, I think it's fair to consider that her friends may have been putting a spin on CR/LS interaction because they dislike him to begin with and they disliked the fact she was with him.

One of the many 10 million dollar questions in this case: Why didn't anyone stop CR from taking her out of Smallwood? It sounds like it would have been easy. She was out of it and he was punched and well out-numbered.

 

[imkeylime]

Most of what you said I agree with but I am not making any assumptions. I shared my "instinct" fwiw if she went back to CR's. Thank you for correcting me about her leaving SW; I knew that but forgot it (unconsciously perhaps because it bolstered my own "position".)

Some related thoughts:

There does seem to be a relationship b/w them meeting up at the 500 and meeting up at JR's again soon after. I can imagine JR calling her and saying "so and so will be here and so will CR--he'd like to see you again."

Certainly she knew CR was interested in her. According to an article or timeline, I don't recall where, she was alone with CR at his apt after they left JR's and before Sports. I might be mis-remembering this but if true, it is important and telling.

To be objective, I think it's fair to consider that her friends may have been putting a spin on CR/LS interaction because they dislike him to begin with and they disliked the fact she was with him.

One of the many 10 million dollar questions in this case: Why didn't anyone stop CR from taking her out of Smallwood? It sounds like it would have been easy. She was out of it and he was punched and well out-numbered.

It would help if we knew why LS and CR went back to SW in the first place. Was it to hang out at her place? Get money? Pick something up? I get the feeling she did leave SW with him, but it could have been because she did like him beyond friendship or was just a friend who felt bad he'd been punched. From all accounts, she was a caring young woman.

For quite awhile, I felt that LS and CR were just party buddies that night. But I've read that they flirted at Indy, which might imply more. OTOH, that could also just be "tantalizing" writing, you know? Regardless, she was only 20 and had been with JW for what, three years? She might have just been testing the waters, which wouldn't be a sin by any means.

If only someone had stopped her from leaving ...

 

[Jupiter812]

It would help if we knew why LS and CR went back to SW in the first place. Was it to hang out at her place? Get money? Pick something up? I get the feeling she did leave SW with him, but it could have been because she did like him beyond friendship or was just a friend who felt bad he'd been punched. From all accounts, she was a caring young woman.

For quite awhile, I felt that LS and CR were just party buddies that night. But I've read that they flirted at Indy, which might imply more. OTOH, that could also just be "tantalizing" writing, you know? Regardless, she was only 20 and had been with JW for what, three years? She might have just been testing the waters, which wouldn't be a sin by any means.

If only someone had stopped her from leaving ...

Yes, after I posted I started thinking about that too--why did they go to SW. I think the peeps she was with that night probably know.

"Flirt" does sound familiar, thanks. I had forgotten that I read it somewhere too. It doesn't necessarily mean she wanted to be with him but I do feel there could be some truth to it. Again, I think some who were around her that night may know this too.

 

[akh]

The descriptions of Lauren from the time they left the bar (so the entire time they were alone together) were: She was 'incapacitated', 'totally out of it', 'in a stupor'. People who described the interaction between Lauren and Corey didn't describe them as getting together or even as friends -- they said he was acting inappropriately and "bothering her". According to the reports about the video at Smallwood, CR picked her up and "helped her" out of Smallwood -- she didn't follow him out, as Gatto suggested. And then he "carried" "dragged" and "pulled" her to back to his place. So, IMO, saying she 'wanted to be with him/ go home with him' isn't really a fair assumption, even though it's one that is made here all the time.

The only thing that seems obvious to me is that she was attached to him because she couldn't walk on her own.

But these are all hindsight descriptions, and not always from necessarily unbiased observers either.

If she was trying to get away from him then why did she bring him to SW? And if he followed her to SW then I'm having a hard time picturing a scenario where she left with him under any circumstances against her will (considering the altercation, because regardless of the reason for the altercation, it establishes there were plenty of people there if she'd simply said "help").

And then they'd met previously at the Indy 500 or so we've been told. So there's some kind of history obviously, no matter how minor it may be. And how does she get to Kilroy's with him if she doesn't want to go?

I'm not nearly as certain that she wasn't with him intentionally and some of the descriptions (and choice of words) are simply distortions used to bolster the idea that someone at 5N has to be guilty and those word choices have worked their way into the narrative.

Of course I'm not saying it's not true either. I'm just not sold one way or the other. I don't recall the PI's painting the picture she was being held against her will or didn't want to be around CR. The police certainly didn't.

And the accounts of just how incapacitated she was all seem to be unofficial sources at best.

Obviously there's some kind of credibility or accuracy issue with the bar employee/manager witness and until we hear directly from this person, or see an actual transcript of what was said, I'm having a hard time putting too much faith in those stories. It doesn't seem LE or the PI's took this report at face value. They seem to have chosen which parts to believe and rearranged the time frame. At least based on initial reports about this witness from Gatto (which I suppose could've been all wrong). This person could've helped, or called for help, and didn't which then calls into question were the observations we heard based on immediate thoughts and concerns or were they the product of hindsight? It would be pretty easy for some false memories to filter in there once this witness rethinks things with the knowledge that something went wrong that night. For example, look on here or other places where a few posters get fixated on a suspect and theory and suddenly anything and everything starts getting molded into fitting their theory. It could work with a witness who thinks back to a situation, only now colored with the knowledge that something happened, and they begin to remember things differently and reconstruct the puzzle. Not always accurately.

It's probably never going to sit right with me that the SW altercation was allegedly over CR being with LS, yet she left with him and they didn't stop her. It doesn't make sense to rise to the level of an altercation and then they let her just leave with him, let alone if he was 'dragging' her off (even if she wanted to go). More importantly, if he was dragging and tugging her and she didn't want to go then the cavalry was apparently there (and not above violence)... so why just let her leave with him? Or why allow him to take her? It doesn't make sense any way I look at it. The only thing that remotely would make sense to me is if she willingly left with him and made sure her 'protectors' knew their protection wasn't appreciated.

 

[AbbeyR]

Yes, they met the week before. That's the history. They were described, by all accounts as acquaintances.

I'm not sure how much free will someone has when they are so intoxicated that they can't walk or talk. This is my issue. Even if they liked each other; Even if they flirted the weekend before, or even earlier that night-- I don't really see why it's relevant. Every single bit of evidence we have suggests that there's no way Lauren could have gotten to 5 N on her own, and that when CR brought her there she was beyond the point of being able to consent to anything or to care for herself.

To get to that conclusion, all you have to do is take the witnesses (at least three unrelated witnesses) at their word. There's no reason not to, IMO. There is reason not to believe the only stories that contradict this, which came from the POI and their lawyers (That she took care of CR, that she wanted to 'party', that she used the phone) -- They have all since been recanted or contradicted by the POI themselves.

 

[akh]

If it was that cut and dried then how is it this case is not further along? LE has video as well as witness statements. If the video confirms she was incapacitated then why doesn't other evidence fall into place enough that LE can act on it? And where does the 'can't walk or talk' part really come into the equation? That isn't multiple sources as far as I can recall... that would be at best based on what the bar manager witness allegedly said.

But all of that still leaves the question wide open as to why the people at SW let her leave? If they are already willing to punch CR over LS, then if she's even almost incapacitated and incoherent at that point, why let her leave (or be taken)?

 

[Jupiter812]

She is on video in the alleyway and according to one of the detectives in the Lohud video, this is when she falls face first without using her hands to block the fall. This matches with the manager's account so I'm good with these descriptions.

But I've always been bothered by the detective's description in the Lohud video in which he waves off her state and says "she was alive and well" then mumbles that he doesn't know how "well." Anyone know what I'm talking about? IMO he somewhat contradicts the description of her state. I would expect him to react much more seriously.

Starts around 4:00 minutes and says it at 4:30:

http://www.lohud.com/VideoNetwork/1662569062001/Events-in-the-disappearance-of-Lauren-Spierer

 

[akh]

She is on video in the alleyway and according to one of the detectives in the Lohud video, this is when she falls face first without using her hands to block the fall. This matches with the manager's account so I'm good with these descriptions.

But I've always been bothered by the detective's description in the Lohud video in which he waves off her state and says "she was alive and well" then mumbles that he doesn't know how "well." Anyone know what I'm talking about? IMO he somewhat contradicts the description of her state. I would expect him to react much more seriously.

Starts around 4:00 minutes and says it at 4:30:

http://www.lohud.com/VideoNetwork/1662569062001/Events-in-the-disappearance-of-Lauren-Spierer

I took the PI's statement the same way you did.

 

[AbbeyR]

If it was that cut and dried then how is it this case is not further along? LE has video as well as witness statements. If the video confirms she was incapacitated then why doesn't other evidence fall into place enough that LE can act on it? And where does the 'can't walk or talk' part really come into the equation? That isn't multiple sources as far as I can recall... that would be at best based on what the bar manager witness allegedly said.

But all of that still leaves the question wide open as to why the people at SW let her leave? If they are already willing to punch CR over LS, then if she's even almost incapacitated and incoherent at that point, why let her leave (or be taken)?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'why isn't the case further along?" LE may be able to prove she was incapacitated and carried home, but that doesn't tell them where she is. I have no doubt that this is part of the reason the POI are POI though.

Accounts of Lauren's condition: The bar manager, the acquaintances who described her condition at Smallwood and Corey's interaction with her to the media, and the video/ source who saw it.

Who knows why they let Corey leave with her. It sounds to me like a) Lauren's condition was bad enough for people who were acquaintances to step in and confront Corey, but b) the altercation came partly from them telling Corey to bring her home but escalated when Corey was confrontational in return, and c)this is in a scene where it wouldn't be totally unusual to see people 'helping' intoxicated friends home

So, maybe they were drunk, or distracted from thinking about Lauren by the argument with Corey, maybe they believed him that he was taking care of her, or decided she'd probably be okay in the end, or maybe they just didn't know what to do.... I'd like to hear their story.

 

[AbbeyR]

@ Jupiter,

My impression is that the PI was responding to a question about whether or not she was alive at that point. (At least, that was the insinuation, I believe. There was speculation that he could have been carrying a body.) : "Oh, no, she was alive and well." [then catches himself] "Well, maybe not so well..." or something along those lines. If the question had been 'what condition was she in', I'll bet it would have been answered differently.

 

[Jupiter812]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'why isn't the case further along?" LE may be able to prove she was incapacitated and carried home, but that doesn't tell them where she is. I have no doubt that this is part of the reason the POI are POI though.

Accounts of Lauren's condition: The bar manager, the acquaintances who described her condition at Smallwood and Corey's interaction with her to the media, and the video/ source who saw it.

Who knows why they let Corey leave with her. It sounds to me like a) Lauren's condition was bad enough for people who were acquaintances to step in and confront Corey, but b) the altercation came partly from them telling Corey to bring her home but escalated when Corey was confrontational in return, and c)this is in a scene where it wouldn't be totally unusual to see people 'helping' intoxicated friends home

So, maybe they were drunk, or distracted from thinking about Lauren by the argument with Corey, maybe they believed him that he was taking care of her, or decided she'd probably be okay in the end, or maybe they just didn't know what to do.... I'd like to hear their story.

Since ZO didn't take steps for Lauren's safety, I'm thinking it was plain 'ole testosterone fueled by whatever drugs and alcohol might have been consumed by the two males, and that ZO found Lauren's state a reason for the punch. Once he got his punch in, he was satisfied.