IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #30

[Ros]

no I totally agree with you, I think, IMO, that people did know that early morning that she didn't return to SW, why they are
either outright lying, or just avoiding the questions by refusing to talk to LE,
who knows that answer? The roommates/friends of roommates, especially HT and Zoe Camp,I think they knew, and outside of the basic press conference/newspaper interview ZC gave 2 years later, we don't have any idea what these girls said to LE. Or if they cooperated. Sure, at the beginning the 2 roomies gave press interviews and went on TV, they looked like deer in headlights, and to me, like they were evading the truth during those interviews, but as far as actually taking a poly or going on LE record, I don't think any of the women involved did. Everyone keeps saying that Lauren was the only woman around that late evening, I don't believe that for a second. The girls could be trading their silence as far as who was giving out the drugs, etc, for the guys keeping them totally out of the scenario.
At first, when I heard the story, I thought, "are these guys gay?" because absolutely no women were mentioned in the scenario, then obviously, this was discussed on PT and it's like no, they aren't gay. Then you have to figure--why are the other women left out of the scenario? IMO, parents of these people, guys and girls, have discussed this very situation and it's been decided that in return for their utter silence as far as the 5N POIs, they will be left out.
We have to figure out that something is going on, and has been going on, behind the scenes with these parents, all along. It's not just the silence of the 5N POIs. More phone calls were placed than those 2 that LE mentioned.
This has to be,even if the 5N guys did it, they were calling more than 2 people who supposedly didn't answer. If she did leave, someone at 5N, probably MB, called/texted others and they went looking for her and they knew she was missing all along, from probably about 20 minutes after she left, if she left, JRs. All MOO, JMO, IMO.

There are SO many unanswered questions

Early on, according to LE, only one of LS' friends (male or female, we don't know) came to the police to say what he or she knew about that night. All the others had to be tracked down.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/lauren-spi...friends-search/story?id=13923810#.UL5GSJKNt-4

Presumably LE would not have to "track down" anyone who voluntarily came to the police station to file a report.

So this fits with JW coming to the police to file a report, and maybe JW is the sole friend who came forward, rather than DR as many have speculated. If two female friends came forward to file a report, wouldn't LE and CS be saying that only two friends talked to the police?

I could have missed it, but did LE or CS ever specifically say that the only friend who came forward was male or female? Did anyone ever say that the only friend who came forward was also the only one to take a LE polygraph? Did they specify that only one of the friends who was with her in the hours before she disappeared talked to the police voluntarily?

And JR's attorneys would have us believe that he cooperated from the start, talking freely to the police without an attorney and rode with them around the neighborhood pointing out where he saw LS last.

And then there is all the confusion in the media about who saw her leave. MB, CR, or JR? The posts on PT by "Ray" about JR came before JR was publicly named a POI. Why did the media say that it was MB or CR? Bad reporting or did the guys at 5N have a hard time keeping their stories straight until they'd told them a few times?

 

[monkey222]

I sometimes wonder if LS fell or passed out on way back, got hit by vehicle, scooped up and taken away. Could all cameras have missed this type activity? I just dont know what to think anymore.

 

[akh]

I sometimes wonder if LS fell or passed out on way back, got hit by vehicle, scooped up and taken away. Could all cameras have missed this type activity? I just dont know what to think anymore.

The answer would appear to be 'yes they could have' because whatever happened appears to have happened off camera including her disappearance.

 

[sammi89]

There are SO many unanswered questions

Early on, according to LE, only one of LS' friends (male or female, we don't know) came to the police to say what he or she knew about that night. All the others had to be tracked down.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/lauren-spi...friends-search/story?id=13923810#.UL5GSJKNt-4

Presumably LE would not have to "track down" anyone who voluntarily came to the police station to file a report.

So this fits with JW coming to the police to file a report, and maybe JW is the sole friend who came forward, rather than DR as many have speculated. If two female friends came forward to file a report, wouldn't LE and CS be saying that only two friends talked to the police?

I could have missed it, but did LE or CS ever specifically say that the only friend who came forward was male or female? Did anyone ever say that the only friend who came forward was also the only one to take a LE polygraph? Did they specify that only one of the friends who was with her in the hours before she disappeared talked to the police voluntarily?

And JR's attorneys would have us believe that he cooperated from the start, talking freely to the police without an attorney and rode with them around the neighborhood pointing out where he saw LS last.

And then there is all the confusion in the media about who saw her leave. MB, CR, or JR? The posts on PT by "Ray" about JR came before JR was publicly named a POI. Why did the media say that it was MB or CR? Bad reporting or did the guys at 5N have a hard time keeping their stories straight until they'd told them a few times?

I'm not sure about this, but I think that filing the report might not be considered the same as talking to the police? That's all I could think of.

 

[sammi89]

I sometimes wonder if LS fell or passed out on way back, got hit by vehicle, scooped up and taken away. Could all cameras have missed this type activity? I just dont know what to think anymore.

I remember wondering that several times too. I agree with akh that whatever happened, happened off the cameras as far as we know.

How much evidence would there be in that case? I thought such a collision might leave behind some evidence at the scene, but then again, I don't know how much other factors play into it (speed, body size, etc.), so maybe it's possible there was nothing noticeable left.

It seems at least plausible though!

 

[Lorelilly]

The descriptions of Lauren from the time they left the bar (so the entire time they were alone together) were: She was 'incapacitated', 'totally out of it', 'in a stupor'. People who described the interaction between Lauren and Corey didn't describe them as getting together or even as friends -- they said he was acting inappropriately and "bothering her". According to the reports about the video at Smallwood, CR picked her up and "helped her" out of Smallwood -- she didn't follow him out, as Gatto suggested. And then he "carried" "dragged" and "pulled" her to back to his place. So, IMO, saying she 'wanted to be with him/ go home with him' isn't really a fair assumption, even though it's one that is made here all the time.

The only thing that seems obvious to me is that she was attached to him because she couldn't walk on her own.

Exactly...which is why she never left 5N under her own power.

 

[AbbeyR]

There are SO many unanswered questions

Early on, according to LE, only one of LS' friends (male or female, we don't know) came to the police to say what he or she knew about that night. All the others had to be tracked down.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/lauren-spi...friends-search/story?id=13923810#.UL5GSJKNt-4

Presumably LE would not have to "track down" anyone who voluntarily came to the police station to file a report.

So this fits with JW coming to the police to file a report, and maybe JW is the sole friend who came forward, rather than DR as many have speculated. If two female friends came forward to file a report, wouldn't LE and CS be saying that only two friends talked to the police?

I could have missed it, but did LE or CS ever specifically say that the only friend who came forward was male or female? Did anyone ever say that the only friend who came forward was also the only one to take a LE polygraph? Did they specify that only one of the friends who was with her in the hours before she disappeared talked to the police voluntarily?

And JR's attorneys would have us believe that he cooperated from the start, talking freely to the police without an attorney and rode with them around the neighborhood pointing out where he saw LS last.

And then there is all the confusion in the media about who saw her leave. MB, CR, or JR? The posts on PT by "Ray" about JR came before JR was publicly named a POI. Why did the media say that it was MB or CR? Bad reporting or did the guys at 5N have a hard time keeping their stories straight until they'd told them a few times?

I don't think LE has ever clarified anything... but I believe, re-reading the old press conference statements that most, if not all, of the messages about Lauren's 'friends' were about the POI, not her girlfriends. As in, people who had information about the night she went missing -- i.e., were there.

I'm with you on the confusion in the media about who saw her leave, as well as the conflicting witness accounts from people who claimed to talk directly to MB. It makes me think they didn't have their stories straight the first day Lauren went missing, but there were definitely cases where the media was just confused. Even that though, I find so odd. I've said this before, but I always think about the Mickey Shunick case, where the last friend with her gave so many statements to the media about exactly what happened the night she went missing. Where a missing person was last seen, and with whom, should not be a secret.

 

[akh]

Not only has LE never clarified anything, but initially they said people were cooperating.

 

[imkeylime]

The Spierers called the hospitals and acted quickly because of her Long QT heart condition. Charlene said they talked every day too.

Whatever her friends know that led them to report her missing so quickly is surely known by LE ny now (?) and perhaps the parents. This could be what's been reported about her and DR snorting before going to JR's or it could be more than that. Bo Deitl doesn't think the boys are hiding drug use because everyone in that quadrant of town does a lot of drugs. I think Bo is wrong and that he underestimates the boys and the boys' families self interest.

I think BD is wrong, too. Also, hiding drug use is one thing but hiding drug dealing is another. We don't know which category these guys fell into, despite their wealth. I used to kind of believe the stereotype for a drug dealer but don't anymore ... in my little town, guys allegedly deal who have no need to even hold jobs. IMO, it's a way for them to be connected, feel cool, and get girls (sad, isn't it?). Maybe that's what BD underestimates?

 

[akh]

We don't know what anyone has actually told LE or BD (PI's) about drug use, dealing, etc.. Maybe they told him enough, or so much, that it's clear that's not what they'd be trying to hide? Or at least enough that it wouldn't seem to be the case to him....

 

[VeryVeritas]

I remember wondering that several times too. I agree with akh that whatever happened, happened off the cameras as far as we know.

How much evidence would there be in that case? I thought such a collision might leave behind some evidence at the scene, but then again, I don't know how much other factors play into it (speed, body size, etc.), so maybe it's possible there was nothing noticeable left.

It seems at least plausible though!

Wow, I've been gone a whole month and unfortunately nothing has changed. So far there have been no cameras reported in CR/MB's apt or JR's apt.
No camera in the area behind 5N.
No camera near the dumpster behind 5N.

However there was a camera that captured the last known footage of Lauren Spierer. She fell FACE DOWN WITHOUT BLOCKING exiting the alley as it opens to the gravel lot behind 5N enroute from Smallwood (after someone also audibly and visually witnessed LS slamming her head on concrete steps at 10th and College while falling over from a sitting position.)
It was only a few feet from this last record of Lauren Spierer's whereabouts that her wallet and keys were found (excluding her apt keycard and fake ID which JR said she had in her possession as he claims to be the last person to claim to have seen her alive... but very oddly these 2 items did not become separated from her person like; her wallet, keys, phone and shoes)

Conjecture about her leaving 5N means that you believe CR/MB and JR's conflicting, inconsistent and extremely improbable stories.
Unfortunately, nothing has materialized to shift preponderance from these 3 people. Even more unfortunate that no significant clues to nail these bastards has turned up either.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Exactly...which is why she never left 5N under her own power.

There is some chance in my mind that she never quite got into 5N after the alley fall. There is no evidence whatsoever that she ever regained consciousness after that fall. The PI's said people said she was definitely alive and being carried by CR, but that seemed to be the account while they were over at 10th and College. There have been no (ZERO) reports of anyone other than MB and JR saying that LS was a) Alive and b) at 5N after 3:00am
CR still has amnesia and an attitude.

If she did get into 5N after that fall, the person most likely to have brought her there was CR and according to MB, CR and LS arrived at the apt together.
MB's statements however, contradict what we know to be fact, that LS was significantly more impaired than CR if she were even conscious at that point.
In all probability LS was was not able to stand, and was likely unconscious if she were alive at all. Something went on between CR, MB and LS for up to 30 minutes... until MB calls JR. Then 45 minutes later 2 calls are made from JR's phone. This 1:15 time span from when CR made it back to 5N until JR's phone makes 2 calls is most likely when LS ceased to be alive.

Does anyone know how long it was after 4:15 when the first contact was made with CR/MB and/or JR? I'm not exactly sure, seems to me it was about 6+ hrs later? So if you think she died at 5N or just before getting there... where she might be depends a lot on how much time you think they had. You can only go so far if it was 30 minutes round trip... or 1:15 but at 6hrs the possibilities are quite vast. And if an unknown 3rd party visiting JR's say from Michigan did the dirty work, many hours more making location just about infinite.

But I fully agree, if she made it to 5N, she never walked out of there (and most likely not alive).

 

[VeryVeritas]

According to this: http://www.lohud.com/flash/spierer/

The encounter between ZO and LS & CR was initially out of concern for LS, but they (the PIs) said the actual punch occured after CR got "mouthy" with ZO (according to the above link!! I know some people might be skeptical of those accounts anyway).

Maybe I'm naive, but I really don't see a major problem with the idea that a male might see a very small, tiny girl who, by witness accounts, was very out of it, and ask if she was okay. I believe others would also later stop them and ask if LS was okay after they left ZO & Smallwood, which seems to corroborate the notion that LS was in noticeably bad shape.

I also don't see a problem with the punch having nothing to do with LS at that point and being solely about the fact that CR was "disrespecting" ZO. Just because ZO stopped and asked if she was okay doesn't mean he is necessarily going to fight CR for possession of her lol. I know CR had been in trouble with Smallwood before; was ZO ever in trouble with Smallwood? If ZO had decided decided to continue to push for LS to be taken home, that might have meant more trouble for him than he may have been willing to take on. Regardless, ZO knocked CR to the ground and proved his point (in his head), so I wouldn't be shocked if ZO didn't give LS a second thought at that point. He thought he was being a nice guy, CR was a jerk, and LS wasn't exactly thanking him (which, from what witnesses have been reported saying, may have been because she was just so out of it). If that's what happened, I'm sure ZO probably feels bad he didn't do more.

But really, what was he supposed to do at that point? He couldn't have predicted she would be missing in the morning, and I think the most natural assumption would be that even if she was in bad shape, she would sleep it off (sad in this case because it seems like one plausible theory is that everyone assumed she would sleep it off and unfortunately, she very well could have overdosed).

I'm not saying ZO is a good guy or not, but the fact that he even took the time to ask if she was okay was more than what her own friends did that night and I think that should be considered. The fight was bizarre when you look at the big picture of the night, but in context of two young guys who had both probably been drinking that night trying to prove who the bigger man was, it's at least explainable.

Hey Sammi, I usually agree with you but this one... nope.
I have seen not one shred of proof (not even statement from ZO) that this altercation with CR had anything to do with LS. If ZO or his pack cared the least about LS one of them would have gone to her. This is on video you know... she was slipping down and couldn't stand in the elevator. She left with CR, there was no indication that they even asked her if she was OK.
This is one of those stories that gets repeated often but without any basis.
The altercation between ZO and CR seemed personal and territorial, but no one seemed to give a rat's butt about LS. What I want to know is if CR used LS's keycard to open the door at SW. This would be proof to me that CR had her keycard and then probably her fake ID as well... which would explain why those items remain missing.

 

[VeryVeritas]

The Spierers called the hospitals and acted quickly because of her Long QT heart condition. Charlene said they talked every day too.

Whatever her friends know that led them to report her missing so quickly is surely known by LE ny now (?) and perhaps the parents. This could be what's been reported about her and DR snorting before going to JR's or it could be more than that. Bo Deitl doesn't think the boys are hiding drug use because everyone in that quadrant of town does a lot of drugs. I think Bo is wrong and that he underestimates the boys and the boys' families self interest.

I'm not seeing a different outcome (with them not hiding the body) depending on various causes of death:
1) Long QT + a couple drinks (known facts)
2) Long QT + a couple drinks + any possible/probable combination of drugs (voluntary or not)
3) either of the above + head injuries (known fact)
4) any of the above + rape
5) another fatal fall
6) choking on vomit

In any case I can think of... these people (CR/MB/JR) could not know the exact cause of death... but could obviously fear they would be blamed and held accountable. So, the motivation to hide her body seems would be the outcome of just about any scenario.

Just from the known facts, if she were deceased and 911 called... they would find a young lady intoxicated, likely with drugs in system, who had serious injuries to her head and face. Trying to think objectively... if you were a cop and walked in and saw this, what would you do? How would things proceed? Now... a step further... if this happened at CR/MB's and CR and MB debated calling 911 or calling JR... they tell JR... (something like this... She OD'd you have to come get her or we are calling 911)
In return for calling JR instead of 911 so he can handle the situation, JR then accepts responsibility for being the last one to see her in effect covering for CR/MB.

 

[imkeylime]

Wow, I've been gone a whole month and unfortunately nothing has changed. So far there have been no cameras reported in CR/MB's apt or JR's apt.
No camera in the area behind 5N.
No camera near the dumpster behind 5N.

However there was a camera that captured the last known footage of Lauren Spierer. She fell FACE DOWN WITHOUT BLOCKING exiting the alley as it opens to the gravel lot behind 5N enroute from Smallwood (after someone also audibly and visually witnessed LS slamming her head on concrete steps at 10th and College while falling over from a sitting position.)
It was only a few feet from this last record of Lauren Spierer's whereabouts that her wallet and keys were found (excluding her apt keycard and fake ID which JR said she had in her possession as he claims to be the last person to claim to have seen her alive... but very oddly these 2 items did not become separated from her person like; her wallet, keys, phone and shoes)

Conjecture about her leaving 5N means that you believe CR/MB and JR's conflicting, inconsistent and extremely improbable stories.
Unfortunately, nothing has materialized to shift preponderance from these 3 people. Even more unfortunate that no significant clues to nail these bastards has turned up either.

One more thing we might consider here, in conjunction with LS falling flat on her face: JR mentioned she had a black eye. I'd like to hear what others think, but IMO, she would have had more than a black eye from such a fall ... the nose usually hits first, which could precede a black eye but would also include swelling. I'd think she also would had oozing scrapes of some sort ... like when you fall from a bike and scrape a knee.

By minimizing her (possible) injuries, JR supports his claim that she could have walked home alone and that she didn't require emergency medical care, again protecting himself. Doesn't it seem like she should have had more injuries from the fall (internal as well, obviously)?

 

[monkey222]

Can someone clarify if LE retrieved LS s keycard and fake id from the 5N apts..or did these two items go mia w or without LS..Thx.

 

[Ixchel13]

One more thing we might consider here, in conjunction with LS falling flat on her face: JR mentioned she had a black eye. I'd like to hear what others think, but IMO, she would have had more than a black eye from such a fall ... the nose usually hits first, which could precede a black eye but would also include swelling. I'd think she also would had oozing scrapes of some sort ... like when you fall from a bike and scrape a knee.

By minimizing her (possible) injuries, JR supports his claim that she could have walked home alone and that she didn't require emergency medical care, again protecting himself. Doesn't it seem like she should have had more injuries from the fall (internal as well, obviously)?

well, by mentioning her beginnings of a black eye, JR also confirms that she did make it to his apt. And, that also means that she could have possibly left. I'm beginning to think she left and was intercepted by friends, or, friends came to intercept her, couldn't find her, then called around everywhere, incl. JW., and that's why they knew she was missing right away, at least I think people did know right away. JMO, and I think one of her friends had her phone and threw it over the fence at Kilroy's and that's how the employees found it. And, I think the person who had her phone was the one on BTown's video, timing and place was just right for someone to be getting rid of the phone, also to be looking for Lauren who they thought was headed to Kilroy's to look for her phone.

 

[imkeylime]

well, by mentioning her beginnings of a black eye, JR also confirms that she did make it to his apt. And, that also means that she could have possibly left. I'm beginning to think she left and was intercepted by friends, or, friends came to intercept her, couldn't find her, then called around everywhere, incl. JW., and that's why they knew she was missing right away, at least I think people did know right away. JMO, and I think one of her friends had her phone and threw it over the fence at Kilroy's and that's how the employees found it. And, I think the person who had her phone was the one on BTown's video, timing and place was just right for someone to be getting rid of the phone, also to be looking for Lauren who they thought was headed to Kilroy's to look for her phone.

Maybe ... but if he's lying about the amnesia, CR could have also told JR or MB that she fell on her face, whether JR saw her or not. I understand your premise, but for me, two questions remain: 1) could she leave on her own two feet after being so incapacitated en route? and 2) why did JR let her leave? The only answer I have for 2) is that something made her want to leave ... and gave her the strength to somehow do so.

I just don't think she would have been quick enough on her feet to evade JR. And I guess I want to think that any guy with any decency at all would have walked or carried her home. He had legs. Why didn't he use them? Or did he just not give a d*mn?

 

[Ixchel13]

There is some chance in my mind that she never quite got into 5N after the alley fall. There is no evidence whatsoever that she ever regained consciousness after that fall. The PI's said people said she was definitely alive and being carried by CR, but that seemed to be the account while they were over at 10th and College. There have been no (ZERO) reports of anyone other than MB and JR saying that LS was a) Alive and b) at 5N after 3:00am
CR still has amnesia and an attitude.

If she did get into 5N after that fall, the person most likely to have brought her there was CR and according to MB, CR and LS arrived at the apt together.
MB's statements however, contradict what we know to be fact, that LS was significantly more impaired than CR if she were even conscious at that point.
In all probability LS was was not able to stand, and was likely unconscious if she were alive at all. Something went on between CR, MB and LS for up to 30 minutes... until MB calls JR. Then 45 minutes later 2 calls are made from JR's phone. This 1:15 time span from when CR made it back to 5N until JR's phone makes 2 calls is most likely when LS ceased to be alive.

Does anyone know how long it was after 4:15 when the first contact was made with CR/MB and/or JR? I'm not exactly sure, seems to me it was about 6+ hrs later? So if you think she died at 5N or just before getting there... where she might be depends a lot on how much time you think they had. You can only go so far if it was 30 minutes round trip... or 1:15 but at 6hrs the possibilities are quite vast. And if an unknown 3rd party visiting JR's say from Michigan did the dirty work, many hours more making location just about infinite.

But I fully agree, if she made it to 5N, she never walked out of there (and most likely not alive).

I just don't believe that, it is very possible that she made it to 5N and possible that she left. Positively threads ago someone posted about talking to an officer and the officer telling them how many seemingly impossible cases of a perp or victim that should be practically dead but shows up or is able to somehow leave the scene, etc.

Also above BBM, it's about the drugs. And how and why everybody was doing 1, 2, and 3. IOW, there wasn't a sober, non-high person in the bunch. This includes roomies, savior/villain ZO and his entire entourage over from 10th and College down there getting high and drunk at SW with DR, Lauren, and their buddies, before she ever went to JRs to pre party
Let's take it from there and ask ourselves, was Lauren the only one messed up? And was she more high than everyone else? Everything the people involved, whether guilty/innocent of harming Lauren, is tinged by the fact that each and every one of them was breaking the law that evening in multiple ways and since they seem to know she's gone they don't want to wreck their careers They were doing/selling/giving/buying drugs to/with each other. It could be as simple as JW, JR, DR, or DB giving HT something she gave Lauren some of, or vice-versa.
IMO, if it's not random, and after reading some other cases, it really does happen.If not random, then more people are involved. MOO

 

[akh]

Ixchel13,
I still don't follow you on the phone thing. Why don't you believe she just left it behind? Sober people leave phones behind, let alone drunk people. You seem fairly convinced that it wasn't left behind and was instead planted later. I can't follow what is making that theory come to life for you?