IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #30

[Ixchel13]

More women than what? What is the frame of reference here? I don't understand what you mean, sorry.

what I mean is, it is more likely that a woman will NOT be raped by friends if she is partying with them.

The statistics may state that a woman is more likely to be raped by someone she knows. This is not what I'm talking about.

 

[AbbeyR]

what I mean is, it is more likely that a woman will NOT be raped by friends if she is partying with them.

The statistics may state that a woman is more likely to be raped by someone she knows. This is not what I'm talking about.

Are you saying that regular people out with friends are, in general, more likely to not be raped than be raped? If so, sure. Obviously. But the other side of that is that up to 1/4 college students report being sexually assaulted, most by acquaintances. Not to mention that we are not talking about people, in general who make it home safely at night. We're talking about someone who is a crime victim who is missing :waitasec: The odds that sexual assault factored into this disappearance are unfortunately significant. And the odds that the offender would be an acquaintance are greater than a stranger, even without all of the red flags that potentially point in that direction.

On victim blaming: Of all people, I think the small group of regular posters here at WS are the least likely to be saying anything to 'blame the victim', and we can extend each other the benefit of the doubt at this point, IMO. But if we are talking about the subtle ways that blaming the victim creeps in or can be misinterpreted, I'll share the ones that bother me sometimes:

* continually using the word "partying" to refer to a missing girl who has been given drinks (and/or drugs) until she was incapacitated, then literally dragged away from a public place alone by an acquaintance and never seen again.

* using words like "getting together" or attributing intent by talking about Lauren (Like she may have wanted to 'hook up' with Corey) when a) no one here knows how she felt or what she planned on doing that night and b) it doesn't matter since she was clearly incapacitated and not able to consent to anything.

JMO

 

[Ixchel13]

Are you saying that regular people out with friends are, in general, more likely to not be raped than be raped? If so, sure. Obviously. But the other side of that is that up to 1/4 college students report being sexually assaulted, most by acquaintances. Not to mention that we are not talking about people, in general who make it home safely at night. We're talking about someone who is a crime victim who is missing :waitasec: The odds that sexual assault factored into this disappearance are unfortunately significant. And the odds that the offender would be an acquaintance are greater than a stranger, even without all of the red flags that potentially point in that direction.
On victim blaming: Of all people, I think the small group of regular posters here at WS are the least likely to be saying anything to 'blame the victim', and we can extend each other the benefit of the doubt at this point, IMO. But if we are talking about the subtle ways that blaming the victim creeps in or can be misinterpreted, I'll share the ones that bother me sometimes:

* continually using the word "partying" to refer to a missing girl who has been given drinks (and/or drugs) until she was incapacitated, then literally dragged away from a public place alone by an acquaintance and never seen again.

* using words like "getting together" or attributing intent by talking about Lauren (Like she may have wanted to 'hook up' with Corey) when a) no one here knows how she felt or what she planned on doing that night and b) it doesn't matter since she was clearly incapacitated and not able to consent to anything.

JMO

BBM: Forensics hasn't turned up anything suggesting a death or sexual assault in those apts at 5N.
Since Lauren has disappeared, there have been several women preyed on by serial killers. Mickey Shunick's murder was not planned, but it's in question whether BSL had seen her before. It happened in a matter of seconds.
If Lauren left JR's, she could have easily been dragged into houses or apts along the route effortlessly. or into any vehicle passing by. The simplest thing might be true: that she od'd and was disposed of by scared friends. But then everybody gets complicated, now she has to assaulted. She was very
well known and backed up by a gang-like frat, everyone knew where she was going and with whom. IOW, she left after the altercation w. CR in front of all those people, then they alert the 10th and College people before heading up to 5N, not really likely, the probability is low, for a sex crime after that, JMO


ok let's define partying as a bunch of people in a room doing drugs and drinking, which is what I have meant all along.

 

[Jupiter812]

Are you saying that regular people out with friends are, in general, more likely to not be raped than be raped? If so, sure. Obviously. But the other side of that is that up to 1/4 college students report being sexually assaulted, most by acquaintances. Not to mention that we are not talking about people, in general who make it home safely at night. We're talking about someone who is a crime victim who is missing :waitasec: The odds that sexual assault factored into this disappearance are unfortunately significant. And the odds that the offender would be an acquaintance are greater than a stranger, even without all of the red flags that potentially point in that direction.

On victim blaming: Of all people, I think the small group of regular posters here at WS are the least likely to be saying anything to 'blame the victim', and we can extend each other the benefit of the doubt at this point, IMO. But if we are talking about the subtle ways that blaming the victim creeps in or can be misinterpreted, I'll share the ones that bother me sometimes:

* continually using the word "partying" to refer to a missing girl who has been given drinks (and/or drugs) until she was incapacitated, then literally dragged away from a public place alone by an acquaintance and never seen again.

* using words like "getting together" or attributing intent by talking about Lauren (Like she may have wanted to 'hook up' with Corey) when a) no one here knows how she felt or what she planned on doing that night and b) it doesn't matter since she was clearly incapacitated and not able to consent to anything.

JMO

Abbey, I understand and for the most part agree with your first point. However I share Ixchel's take on "partying" as well. On Day 1, HT set the stage and did irrevocable harm when she said Lauren "went too far." And fwiw it pisses me off when the media use "partying", one of the worst violators being Shawn Colvin, LOHUD reporter, "a night of partying." Irresponsible journalism--what else is new?

Regarding the second point, I can appreciate this too, but I think you know my thoughts about this. More than anything else, rather than it being victim blaming I think it's a fair and innocent assumption (by more than the regulars here), especially given that Lauren told JW she was staying in that night and she did not. Instead, she went to a party. Also, she purportedly left JR's and went with CR to his apt while the others headed to Sports. Bottom line is I do not believe she was incapacitated the entire night; there was Part A and Part B.

 

[AbbeyR]

I agree, J. She was obviously hanging out with CR and others of her own free will early in the night. But the only time she was alone with CR, as far as we know, she couldn't even walk on her own. All I'm saying is, then -- at point B (or C?) -- the point where she is described as being 'in a stupor', 'incapacitated' etc., and an acquaintance is dragging her down an alley towards his place, it is no longer 'partying' and it is definitely not "hooking up".

I'll leave it at that. Carry on

 

[Ixchel13]

Abbey, I understand and for the most part agree with your first point. However I share Ixchel's take on "partying" as well. On Day 1, HT set the stage and did irrevocable harm when she said Lauren "went too far." And fwiw it pisses me off when the media use "partying", one of the worst violators being Shawn Colvin, LOHUD reporter, "a night of partying." Irresponsible journalism--what else is new?

Regarding the second point, I can appreciate this too, but I think you know my thoughts about this. More than anything else, rather than it being victim blaming I think it's a fair and innocent assumption (by more than the regulars here), especially given that Lauren told JW she was staying in that night and she did not. Instead, she went to a party. Also, she purportedly left JR's and went with CR to his apt while the others headed to Sports. Bottom line is I do not believe she was incapacitated the entire night; there was Part A and Part B.

bbm interesting, maybe we should divide the evening into part A and part B.
Part A)
So many things going on that day. Pre-partying starts early and has become a
fierce rival to tailgating. Sometimes, but not usually, food is added and then it's the new 'tailgating' without being in the parking lot. So various pre-parties going on
1) SW, down the hall from Lauren's and HT's apts
2a) JR's pre-party at 5N that ran out of booze before Lauren got there.
3) JW was with buds and roommates over at the house. Aepis got kicked off campus, so a bunch of them rented houses by each other and had their frat that way.
2b) CR had a small branch off for an hour. Although some may say the confrontation begins Part B, IMO it's pre-party 2b.
4) Unknown party at 10th and College. Of the 3 apt/condo buildings, meaning SW, 3N and 10th and C, you will find more locals/dropouts and hard drugs here.
Aepis first settled here when they got kicked out. When Zoe Camp talks about that night and when Lauren was buzzing her, she never mentions another soul, as if she was totally alone when Lauren and CR buzzed. I don't believe that.
After the extended pre-parties, where did everyone go? Is it safe to assume that just one person, all we need is one person, went over to pre-party 3 at JW's?
Did DR leave pre-party 2b, go over to SW and tell HT what Lauren was up to?
Or was HT already there at pre-party 2a,JR's, arriving there while Lauren was at
2b, and then move on to Unknown pre-party 4 while Lauren headed to Kilroy's?
Where all these people went after pre-partying could matter if the killer(s) is/are among them.
Either it's random or someone among the pre-partiers and their dealers/entourage did it.
To me, what stands out about these pre-partiers is that they will not admit they were super-intoxicated just like Lauren. The emotions jealousy and self-righteousness are extremely amplified by intoxications. How dare this popular,
rich,perennially favorite beautiful girl flirt with a cute available guy when she had this handsome. popular bf that any of us would date in a heart beat? And how could this adorable, sexy girl choose another guy to date when she might
be breaking up with her boyfriend, a leader of a notorious underground frat that
wouldn't quite let us in?
At the close of Part A, IMO, everyone was high and drunk, and Lauren had brought out some highly charged emotions, perhaps that had been building up all year.

 

[monkey222]

Ixcgel, Thx. A nice timeline of sorts of the players whereabouts during the evening and night, at least from what has been made public. There has to be lots of cell phone activity to shed light on that night. I only hope that LE has obtained the pertinent records.

 

[VeryVeritas]

One more thing we might consider here, in conjunction with LS falling flat on her face: JR mentioned she had a black eye. I'd like to hear what others think, but IMO, she would have had more than a black eye from such a fall ... the nose usually hits first, which could precede a black eye but would also include swelling. I'd think she also would had oozing scrapes of some sort ... like when you fall from a bike and scrape a knee.

By minimizing her (possible) injuries, JR supports his claim that she could have walked home alone and that she didn't require emergency medical care, again protecting himself. Doesn't it seem like she should have had more injuries from the fall (internal as well, obviously)?

It did interest me that he is quoted as saying "Black Eye" because initially I thought it would take quite a bit of time for a Black Eye to form. However, subsequently some WS'rs argued that he say what would become a Black Eye in its early stages. Others suggested that if the injuries were significant the darkening could occur more rapidly. And I also learned that if someone were deceased it would appear Black much sooner.

But also I see your point that while he gives interesting details in his account, the details again could be rather selective.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I need more time to think about this. But I thank you for helping me understand who ZC is! I could not figure the initials out!

More than initials I would want to know whose fingerprints were on Lauren's phone? OR... was it wiped clean? If full of fingerprints that would tell a story of hijinks... wiped clean = foul play... only Lauren's well then back to 5N...

 

[VeryVeritas]

Maybe ... but if he's lying about the amnesia, CR could have also told JR or MB that she fell on her face, whether JR saw her or not.

Good point. While JR spins a good yarn full of convenient details... CR has amnesia so there can be no cross checking of facts between their stories.
But it's entirely possible that everything JR knows came from CR and MB.
He may have invented the story about mistaking the ipod for a phone... or may have seen others do it and just wove it into the fiction. He is a guy that can think on his feet. While JR is the cover story and may illustrate it with facts that came from CR and/or MB (like her injuries and keycard) he may not have handled her body. Then who did? With JR being on the hook and taking up the cover story, I could not see him leaving to chance that CR could dispose of LS permanently. It seems to me that if JR were to delegate or trust that task to someone else it would be someone 100% loyal and not incapacitated in any way. We speculate a lot about the Michigan friend... this is another road to him. Someone texting and dining out in the early hours not seemingly incapacitated visiting from Michigan is rather curious with respect to this scenario. JR could be a lot more composed with his story if he wasn't involved in removal or disposal and just could focus on running it through his mind. More than ever I'm thinking there was a decision to split responsibilities. I now think it unlikely that a group of them took her out at 3:30 and came back by 4:15 but it is possible. What seems more likely is that someone took on that task of disposal, possibly a sole person. LS was small and a group would only attract more attention. Then the rest remained to clear their stories. And so this person who would have been charged with disposal.... would they not give some "signal" that their task completed successfully? If it was that runcible spoon tweet put out as an "all clear" message the time of that tweet back to 3:30 could be the new "round trip" time interval for disposal.
Found this blog from Malorie Janasek with a timeline that I've never seen before:
http://maloriejanasek.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/this-blog-titled-jay-rosenbaum-needs-to-talk.pdf
It names DB by name and puts him at Runcible Spoon at about 11:00am.
But it also eludes to LE's unnamed POI's (including ? people that may have been at JR's or connected to JR I still wonder if it was more than just DB).
Anyway from 3:30am to 11:00am that's a span of 7.5 hrs. Giving a potential disposal radius of over 3.5 hrs. One could drive to Lake Michigan or Lake Erie and back in that time frame. It's also pretty close to a round trip time frame to an area just south of Detroit without speeding. I find it curious that it's around this same time that CR/MB show up in the drug store.
Certainly the reservoirs, quarries and numerous other possibilities closer to Bloomington abound as well if you have that kind of time.

This Blog also says that from the last time JR claims to have seen LS until the time she is reported missing that 13.5 hrs passed.

 

[mik1965]

And skeletal remains were found in Warsaw IN today. That is west of Fort Wayne which is in I69 in northeastern Indiana which is in route to Michigan. Hmmm...

 

[Ixchel13]

Good point. While JR spins a good yarn full of convenient details... CR has amnesia so there can be no cross checking of facts between their stories.
But it's entirely possible that everything JR knows came from CR and MB.
He may have invented the story about mistaking the ipod for a phone... or may have seen others do it and just wove it into the fiction. He is a guy that can think on his feet. While JR is the cover story and may illustrate it with facts that came from CR and/or MB (like her injuries and keycard) he may not have handled her body. Then who did? With JR being on the hook and taking up the cover story, I could not see him leaving to chance that CR could dispose of LS permanently. It seems to me that if JR were to delegate or trust that task to someone else it would be someone 100% loyal and not incapacitated in any way. We speculate a lot about the Michigan friend... this is another road to him. Someone texting and dining out in the early hours not seemingly incapacitated visiting from Michigan is rather curious with respect to this scenario. JR could be a lot more composed with his story if he wasn't involved in removal or disposal and just could focus on running it through his mind. More than ever I'm thinking there was a decision to split responsibilities. I now think it unlikely that a group of them took her out at 3:30 and came back by 4:15 but it is possible. What seems more likely is that someone took on that task of disposal, possibly a sole person. LS was small and a group would only attract more attention. Then the rest remained to clear their stories. And so this person who would have been charged with disposal.... would they not give some "signal" that their task completed successfully? If it was that runcible spoon tweet put out as an "all clear" message the time of that tweet back to 3:30 could be the new "round trip" time interval for disposal.
Found this blog from Malorie Janasek with a timeline that I've never seen before:
http://maloriejanasek.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/this-blog-titled-jay-rosenbaum-needs-to-talk.pdf
It names DB by name and puts him at Runcible Spoon at about 11:00am.
But it also eludes to LE's unnamed POI's (including ? people that may have been at JR's or connected to JR I still wonder if it was more than just DB).
Anyway from 3:30am to 11:00am that's a span of 7.5 hrs. Giving a potential disposal radius of over 3.5 hrs. One could drive to Lake Michigan or Lake Erie and back in that time frame. It's also pretty close to a round trip time frame to an area just south of Detroit without speeding. I find it curious that it's around this same time that CR/MB show up in the drug store.
Certainly the reservoirs, quarries and numerous other possibilities closer to Bloomington abound as well if you have that kind of time.

This Blog also says that from the last time JR claims to have seen LS until the time she is reported missing that 13.5 hrs passed.

good one VV

 

[imkeylime]

It did interest me that he is quoted as saying "Black Eye" because initially I thought it would take quite a bit of time for a Black Eye to form. However, subsequently some WS'rs argued that he say what would become a Black Eye in its early stages. Others suggested that if the injuries were significant the darkening could occur more rapidly. And I also learned that if someone were deceased it would appear Black much sooner.

But also I see your point that while he gives interesting details in his account, the details again could be rather selective.

Your last point is particularly interesting (if deceased). I'm no expert on black eyes, but my daughter once fell flat on her face in the kitchen. Her nose swelled, but her eyes didn't blacken immediately. But maybe LS didn't fall flat, you know? She may have landed on her left or right side. ???

 

[imkeylime]

It names DB by name and puts him at Runcible Spoon at about 11:00am. But it also eludes to LE's unnamed POI's (including ? people that may have been at JR's or connected to JR I still wonder if it was more than just DB). Anyway from 3:30am to 11:00am that's a span of 7.5 hrs. Giving a potential disposal radius of over 3.5 hrs. One could drive to Lake Michigan or Lake Erie and back in that time frame. It's also pretty close to a round trip time frame to an area just south of Detroit without speeding. I find it curious that it's around this same time that CR/MB show up in the drug store.
Certainly the reservoirs, quarries and numerous other possibilities closer to Bloomington abound as well if you have that kind of time.

This Blog also says that from the last time JR claims to have seen LS until the time she is reported missing that 13.5 hrs passed.

Respectfully snipped by me. There was a time when I considered that DB could have taken LS to MI ... there are lakes and reservoirs in southwestern MI that are crazy deep. Scary deep, actually, like Half Moon in the Pinckney Rec area. And Detroit is just scary period. But a poster here convinced me that was a long shot ... it ties her to JR and/or DB, and why do that? So a spot en route to MI makes the most sense, IMO.

The Runcible Spoon tweet has always bothered me.

 

[Kadence]

Respectfully snipped by me. There was a time when I considered that DB could have taken LS to MI ... there are lakes and reservoirs in southwestern MI that are crazy deep. Scary deep, actually, like Half Moon in the Pinckney Rec area. And Detroit is just scary period. But a poster here convinced me that was a long shot ... it ties her to JR and/or DB, and why do that? So a spot en route to MI makes the most sense, IMO.

The Runcible Spoon tweet has always bothered me.

DBs Runcible Spoon tweet has bothered me as well because looking at his other tweets (before he locked them) - he didn't seem like much of a "foodie" to me...

 

[Kadence]

And skeletal remains were found in Warsaw IN today. That is west of Fort Wayne which is in I69 in northeastern Indiana which is in route to Michigan. Hmmm...

More info in this link:

http://www.abc57.com/home/top-stories/Possible-skeletal-remains-found-north-of-Warsaw-225817551.html

Thanks for sharing this mik1965! I don't know what to think but I do know someone will get some type of closure (although I'm sure there is never true closure ) from this.

 

[Kadence]

Your last point is particularly interesting (if deceased). I'm no expert on black eyes, but my daughter once fell flat on her face in the kitchen. Her nose swelled, but her eyes didn't blacken immediately. But maybe LS didn't fall flat, you know? She may have landed on her left or right side. ???

From experience (kitchen cabinet door, more than once believe it or not!) it usually didn't appear until at least the next day and got progressively worse over a few days and then turned the icky green/brown color that no coverup could mask!

So, imho, either the black eye story is not true or she had significant head trauma that was more than a black eye (perhaps an orbital and/or skull fracture), which from the falls sounds very possible.

 

[Jupiter812]

Here's what I'm pondering: If JR had anything to do with Lauren why would he mention the black eye? There would be no good reason. Even if he said it to make her look bad would be stupid because it makes him a *advertiser censored* for letting her leave.

 

[Jupiter812]

Yes, it feels good to use that word.:rockon: I dunno if it's allowed tho.:waitasec:

 

[akh]

I wouldn't put too much stock in that timeline from a couple of years ago because it's likely built upon some of the questionable reporting and noise that surrounded the case in the beginning and doesn't appear to have been updated as further info appeared. ...Unless I missed something at the link.