IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #30

[Ros]

Can someone clarify if LE retrieved LS s keycard and fake id from the 5N apts..or did these two items go mia w or without LS..Thx.

There was an unconfirmed rumor that her fake ID card was found nearby (on Walnut Street?). "dorothea" referred to that rumor (and considered it as fact) in her post on PT (Phantasy Tour) Wed Jun 29, 2011 07:00 PM

I no longer recall the original source of the rumor. It was something like a comment on a message board by someone claiming that they heard about finding the fake ID from a friend with inside information. Until Kilroy's was cited, I discounted the rumor. I think I posted on this a while back...

Kilroy's was cited for serving minors using her fake ID as evidence.

"There were discrepancies in the physical appearance, the physical description, which would include height and weight on the ID that was used," Cpl. Travis Thickstun, Excise Police spokesman, said of the fake ID Spierer used that night, "that we believe a reasonable person should've noticed."

http://www.wishtv.com/news/local/south-central/bar-cited-in-connection-with-lauren-spierer-case

Others have pointed out that Kilroy's may have been keeping images of the IDs and that the image, rather than the ID, was used as evidence.

So maybe the fake ID was found and maybe it wasn't.

 

[Ixchel13]

Ixchel13,
I still don't follow you on the phone thing. Why don't you believe she just left it behind? Sober people leave phones behind, let alone drunk people. You seem fairly convinced that it wasn't left behind and was instead planted later. I can't follow what is making that theory come to life for you?

Here's my thoughts on the phone: all MOO:

She left it at SW when she left for JR's pre party, or, she left it at CRs/JRs
during the pre-party activity and never took it to Kilroy's. But, someone took it from there, either DR or one of her friends. At that point, perhaps pics of her and CR, or "incriminating, as in with her bf JW" texts from CR to LS and vice-versa, were on the phone.

The phone made it back to SW and texts/pics were passed around, possibly sent to JW or maybe not yet. When Lauren got to Kilroy's, she realized she didn't have her phone and knew what could happen. IMO, she went to SW to get her phone, maybe intending to go on up to 5N, maybe not. But first she wanted that phone.

The altercation--again, ZO was jealous that Lauren was with CR, and she probably left her phone where they were partying down the hall from her apt. with ZO and friends before heading to CRs and JRs preparty. ZO might have had the phone originally, but I think he gave it to ZC or one of the girls from 10th and College. HT might've also been involved in the phone jinx.

After the altercation, LS and CR headed up to 5N but not before stopping at 10th and College, and seriously trying to get ZC's attention--again, IMO Lauren thought Zoe had her phone, also ZO lived at 10th and College.

This is where Lauren hit her head on the pavement, in front of 10th and College, waiting for ZC to answer the buzzer. She didn't answer, but it's at this time that the bartender/mgr "witness" appears to tell us how messed up Lauren was. I think this witness came from inside 10th and College. I think this witness had something to do with this whole mess, not just someone passing by. Saying she's a bar manager really means nothing as far as
truthfulness goes, in fact, this witness bothers me because she's a bar manager.

Earlier, Lauren was on a partying mission, but when she left SW with CR, I think her mission was to get that phone before JW got it or to edit the phone or to see what others might have done with her info.

If she just thought she had left it at Kilroy's, she might have just chilled at JRs or gone straight home after the confrontation.

Now, the weird part, I'm not sure if the person who had her phone dropped it at Kilroy's after the 10th and College/ZC thing; or if when they realized she was missing and wasn't with any of the people involved the person who had it realized they had goaded Lauren into something much more serious, got really scared, and dumped the phone off at Kilroy's by throwing it over the fence. This might be point zero of all the girls involved:guilt. If they hadn't been playing a mean trick on Lauren, she probably would have stayed at SW even after the confrontation. This is what, IMO, made her go back up to 5N even when the party was definitely over. It was the thing that gave her the
wherewithall to keep going, she knew if the phone got into JW's hands, her relationship would definitely be on the rocks. I think the CR thing was just a flirtation because her bf was elsewhere, nothing more.
BTown told us of a video, and in the video, someone is right by Kilroys, a
young woman, there's a car by the curb next to her. It's right around the time Lauren is supposed to be walking back towards SW. In the video, there's a guy skateboarder across the street. There was a "witness" on here and on FB who said he saw a car by the curb and someone who looked like Lauren in the backseat, and the "witness" says it was also in this area at this time. I think this witness was the skateboarder. Everyone kind of made fun and doubted his word on FB and said he was making it up.
This video could be of someone tossing the phone into Kilroy's beach, or, it could be someone who picked Lauren up off the street and was perhaps driving her by Kilroy's.
Of course Kilroy's absolutely refuses to divulge anything about this incident, or who found the phone, or where. Their move was to close down for the whole summer and basically victim-blame Lauren and never apologize for serving her both underage and already drunk.
Everyone wonders why JR stepped in and made the simplistic story and admitting to be the last one to see her. That answer is easy, if he didn't, these wise guy kids were going to turn him in, the main hard drug supply most likely came from him and his partner DB down from the ritzy Detroit area.
Obviously they had sold to the other configurations of folks but the buck stopped at 5N and so to keep everyone out of the picture in order to avoid doing hard time for dealing/drugging/ODing-Disappearing Lauren, JR agreed to take the heat of being the last person to see her, probably after consulting with his dad's attys. Possibly, she actually did get nabbed by a random/slight acquaintance and they really don't know where she is, but they do know they are damn well responsible for whatever happened to her, down to the people playing tricks on her.
Of course, MOO, JMO, IMO and all that.

 

[imkeylime]

The altercation--again, ZO was jealous that Lauren was with CR, and she probably left her phone where they were partying down the hall from her apt. with ZO and friends before heading to CRs and JRs preparty. ZO might have had the phone originally, but I think he gave it to ZC or one of the girls from 10th and College. HT might've also been involved in the phone jinx.

I need more time to think about this. But I thank you for helping me understand who ZC is! I could not figure the initials out!

 

[monkey222]

Ros..thx for info on fake id. Yes, I recalled as well seeing a statement by LE that it was not a good match. So..wondering if LE got it from Walnut st find..or 5n..since JR mentions she had it there. Hmmm..lost after leaving 5N...? Or..even lost after leaving 5N first time..? en route to Sports..or am I not making sense..

 

[AbbeyR]

IIRC, the source of the ID rumor was a comment in the HT online, and the info in the comment didn't match the info from the Excise police.

There is a discussion about it with links to the comment somewhere here...

 

[akh]

If a friend or family member gave LS their ID and then fessed up to it to help in the search for LS (since that ID could turn up somewhere or be used somewhere for illegal purposes, etc and aid in the search for what happened that night) then LE likely could obtain a COPY of that ID from the issuing state.

They know she entered Kilroy's underage. That is not in dispute and so there's no issue with charging Kilroy's. Thru the course of the investigation they could've learned whose ID she used. It only makes sense they would want to know what fake ID she was using, not to charge Kilroy's, but to aid in the search for LS and/or to find evidence of what happened and look for someone using that ID.

I'm doubtful Kilroy's scans ID's.

In fact, without someone fessing up to the ID LS was using, how would LE know they'd found her 'fake' ID if they did find it? It wouldn't be who they are looking for. It would either need to be found with her items or handed over as the fake ID she was using. If she had one of the professional fake ID's then the info, including her name would match (so comments about the ID being obviously fake and her not matching the description would indicate it wasn't a professionally made ID).

More likely she had an ID that belonged to someone else and just pretended to be that person when showing the ID. As long as someone fessed up as to whose ID she used then LE wouldn't need to 'find' it as long as the issuing state kept copies on file that they could obtain.

 

[AbbeyR]

Here's a link to the post about the ID rumor -- it seems to be unavailable now, but as this post notes, I remember that the comment stated that it was Lauren's picture with her name misspelled, while the info from excise police implies she borrowed someone's ID.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9567370&postcount=1123"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29[/ame]

 

[monkey222]

Thx Akh..my reasoning was that JR knew fake ID details and it LE found it...it could assist in LS search thru prints, location...

 

[AbbeyR]

There was a "witness" on here and on FB who said he saw a car by the curb and someone who looked like Lauren in the backseat, and the "witness" says it was also in this area at this time. I think this witness was the skateboarder. Everyone kind of made fun and doubted his word on FB and said he was making it up.

Here on WS? I don't remember this. Could you point me in the right direction about who this poster was or link to the post? Thanks!

 

[Ixchel13]

Here on WS? I don't remember this. Could you point me in the right direction about who this poster was or link to the post? Thanks!

it will take awhile I'll be back later w. it. But, this guy has been discussed many times.

 

[AbbeyR]

Thanks Ix. I don't recall there ever being a witness who claimed to have seen someone who looked like Lauren in a car the night she disappeared, but maybe it's my memory or I am misinterpreting your post...

I would think that if there had been a legit witness who reported possibly seeing Lauren in the backseat of a car, there would have been a search for the car in question and more of a focus from LE on the possibility of an abduction.

 

[Jupiter812]

Thanks Ix. I don't recall there ever being a witness who claimed to have seen someone who looked like Lauren in a car the night she disappeared, but maybe it's my memory or I am misinterpreting your post...

I would think that if there had been a legit witness who reported possibly seeing Lauren in the backseat of a car, there would have been a search for the car in question and more of a focus from LE on the possibility of an abduction.

The only thing that comes close is the cab driver who said she was one of his rides or maybe he is one who said he saw her in another car. As I recall he wasn't very credible.

 

[Ixchel13]

The only thing that comes close is the cab driver who said she was one of his rides or maybe he is one who said he saw her in another car. As I recall he wasn't very credible.

trying to remember where I saw this, but, it's around somewhere, not the first time we've discussed it here, and he did report it to the police. Also,
he said that he was frustrated because he wasn't taken seriously. He started on the LS FB page, but was on PT and I think somewhere on here. Sorry you don't remember this people. Also, what is a credible witness? As I have mentioned before, most of these witnesses were under the influence of something, and the supposed bar manager witness has never been identified.
The Kilroy's witnesses have never been identified, and we don't even know which of her friends cooperated.
If I am drunk and high, how credible is my account of an event? At the very least, my opinion has been fuelled by alcohol and drugs. These POIs, roomies, friends, have been yet to say or add, "But I could be wrong, because I was very drunk/high/both." If I am super-drunk, how can I gauge how drunk someone else is?
I work with these college kids. They come around with casts, patched up busted noses, crutches--this falling down and hurting themselves is endemic around here. I see things like one stiletto heel in the middle of the street. I see women walking and men walking home at 6 a.m., once I saw a girl coming out of a frat house at 6 a.m. barely clothed (no shirt!) and barefoot, right out the front door and started running to her sorority house two doors down.
Not that it's just the Greeks. My jewelry instructor, only 21, came into class
on crutches--she said she fell off a curb and broke her ankle on Oxycodone.
They do survive these falling injuries, sorry but I don't think Lauren's demise came from her fall. It sounds like she needed medical attention, though.
Someone abducted Lauren, IMO, and her injuries and condition made her an easy prey. Whether it was a friend, acquaintance, or random killer, I don't feel like she OD'd and was disposed of, UNLESS she went somewhere after JRs. I don't think her friends gang raped her, as some here think--kinda complicated but loosely speaking, this is a freudian way of victim blaming, iow, she was partying with all guys, so the result must have been gang rape. Plus, I strongly feel that there were other women around but they are evading LE somehow, possibly blackmailing the POIs for drug dealing.
Whatever happened to her, IMO, it's something that we haven't guessed yet. We see that no one is going to willingly come forward, I don't feel like someone's conscience is going to bother them enough to come forward if they haven't already done so.
What people won't believe is that even if it's the POIs' faults, something I feel very strongly, they didn't care about her--even so, it may be true that the ones we have heard from, CR, MB, and JR, really don't know what happened. Even if they suspect one of their other friends, they aren't going to tell on them. IMO, so far, there have been no credible witnesses.
But if we want to believe the bar manager witness, then we have to also give any other witness the same credibility. Not to be mean, but most of the bar managers around here get pretty drunk at work. There's usually a general manager, then several "managers" who get paid very little, work long hours, and party hearty. I always pick on the bar manager witness, because I think she is lying, MOO.

 

[AbbeyR]

I don't think her friends gang raped her, as some here think--kinda complicated but loosely speaking, this is a freudian way of victim blaming, iow, she was partying with all guys, so the result must have been gang rape. Plus, I strongly feel that there were other women around but they are evading LE somehow, possibly blackmailing the POIs for drug dealing.

I believe the possibility of rape has been considered, as it should when a girl is last seen being dragged away in an incapacitated state by a male acquaintance alone, and then goes missing.

I don't see how considering the possibility of rape is blaming the victim at all, in a "freudian" way or otherwise. It's worth considering the statistics on rape and violence, and the red flags to watch for. It's not something anyone wants to think about, but to me, these are realistic factors in weighing the probabilities of what could have happened to Lauren, and should be taken more seriously than a gut feeling about a group of strangers. JMO.

 

[imkeylime]

Someone abducted Lauren, IMO, and her injuries and condition made her an easy prey. Whether it was a friend, acquaintance, or random killer, I don't feel like she OD'd and was disposed of, UNLESS she went somewhere after JRs. I don't think her friends gang raped her, as some here think--kinda complicated but loosely speaking, this is a freudian way of victim blaming, iow, she was partying with all guys, so the result must have been gang rape. Plus, I strongly feel that there were other women around but they are evading LE somehow, possibly blackmailing the POIs for drug dealing.
Whatever happened to her, IMO, it's something that we haven't guessed yet. We see that no one is going to willingly come forward, I don't feel like someone's conscience is going to bother them enough to come forward if they haven't already done so.

Respectfully snipped by me. I do think there are some young women out there who probably know or strongly suspect what happened to LS. I'd hope that as these young women grow up ... maybe even have children of their own ... they'll find it in their hearts to share what they know.

IMO, LS partying alone with a group of guys doesn't suggest victim blaming in any shape or form. I'm not sure why this is, but IMO, guys and girls hang out more together in various mixed groups than they used to. Case in point: My daughter's friend group includes one really nice (and nice looking) guy. TBH, I thought he was gay (which would be fine). But suddenly last year, he got a girlfriend. And she wasn't from the friend group at all.

I realize LS wasn't really in a "friend group" with these guys, but it's certainly not a bad reflection that she was hanging out with them. I do think CR wanted something more, and she might have been testing the waters. I don't think anything would have been wrong with that had CR been a standup guy. Sadly, he wasn't. JMO.

 

[Kadence]

Here's a link to the post about the ID rumor -- it seems to be unavailable now, but as this post notes, I remember that the comment stated that it was Lauren's picture with her name misspelled, while the info from excise police implies she borrowed someone's ID.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #29

Do we think it might have been her sister's ID? Lots of my friends, back in the day, got their IDs from their older sisters, sadly, and probably thankfully, I don't have an older sister.

 

[Kadence]

Respectfully snipped by me. I do think there are some young women out there who probably know or strongly suspect what happened to LS. I'd hope that as these young women grow up ... maybe even have children of their own ... they'll find it in their hearts to share what they know.

IMO, LS partying alone with a group of guys doesn't suggest victim blaming in any shape or form. I'm not sure why this is, but IMO, guys and girls hang out more together in various mixed groups than they used to. Case in point: My daughter's friend group includes one really nice (and nice looking) guy. TBH, I thought he was gay (which would be fine). But suddenly last year, he got a girlfriend. And she wasn't from the friend group at all.

I realize LS wasn't really in a "friend group" with these guys, but it's certainly not a bad reflection that she was hanging out with them. I do think CR wanted something more, and she might have been testing the waters. I don't think anything would have been wrong with that had CR been a standup guy. Sadly, he wasn't. JMO.

'm pretty sure you're right IKL, I also hope they find it in their hearts to share what they know/suspect, the sooner the better. I wish they could look at it from a different angle, through a different set of eyes, like you say, as a Mother.

I also couldn't agree more with your statement "I do think CR wanted something more, and she might have been testing the waters. I don't think anything would have been wrong with that had CR been a standup guy. Sadly, he wasn't." I just wish that instead of ZO punching CR that he would have taken LS "away"from the situation and to safety, she was right there at Smallwood, I wish she had never left there. I would like to know how many people observed her state and did nothing to help her

Does anyone think that we will ever be privy to seeing any camera footage? At this point, I think LE should open up about what they have and let the public have a shot at solving LS's case - it may jog someone's memory. JMO. We need to bring Lauren home.

 

[Dixie811]

Do we think it might have been her sister's ID? Lots of my friends, back in the day, got their IDs from their older sisters, sadly, and probably thankfully, I don't have an older sister.

The info upthread said that LE was able to cite Kilroy's on the fake ID because it should have been obvious due to height and weight that Lauren wasn't the individual pictured on the ID.

I have seen a video of Lauren and her sister Rebecca together, and I do not think it would have necessarily been obvious that Lauren was not the girl on the ID. Rebecca and Lauren appear to be about the same height and of similar statures.

But, perhaps a cousin or one of her older sister's friends? One of my friends' older sisters gave me an old ID to use in college.

 

[Ixchel13]

First of all, Abbey wanted to know why I think there's some sort of "Freudian" victim blaming going on, and really, it may not be Freudian as such, what I mean is an underlying meaning behind things, hidden implications.
To me misconceptions, or at least 50/50 chance of being a misconception.

Her Mental State: exaggerated perhaps, in comparison with the people she was with: due to her size, over-abuse, that she was somehow more intoxicated than everyone else/even as far as no one else admitting to even being high/drunk but
then accusing Lauren of being too much so.

No one has any proof, or has offered any real proof, of how much of what Lauren consumed.

Promiscuity: 1)That nothing may have happened if she only would have not been cuckholding her loyal boyfriend. The idea implied is Lauren should have stayed at her apt. with the other women, instead of gallavanting around the neighborhood in the company of all men. When possibly, other women were around all along.

This was not so subliminally projected by her roommates into everyone's minds at the very beginning, tainting all of our thoughts about Lauren's behavior. For example, I think she was looking for her phone, as opposed to the many ideas formed that she was looking for sex with CR, looking for yet more drugs, as the reason she went back up to 5N.

2)That as a result, she was more than likely gang raped by these men, killed, and her body disposed of by these same men, one a childhood friend.

Again, an outcome we might easily project as the behavior of the "bad" 5N guys she chose instead of the "good" yet flawed hero ZO, who tried to save her but she, or CR for her, made the wrong choice In reality, the confrontation at SW was more of a punishment dealt to CR, to show him what happens to people who try to go out with an AEPi girlfriend, not a real concern for Lauren.

IMO, Lauren felt threatened by someone in her own apt., she didn't feel safe, whether actually her physical self, or mentally threatened. And IMO, this came from her roommate HT and friends she had over from 10th and College. IMO, Zoe Camp was at the pre-pre-party gathering at SW down the hall from
Lauren's apt. and was seriously stirring up the waters. She lived at 10th and College, same as ZO, and this is where Lauren went after the confrontation.
People who don't know BTown, you can get to 10th and College apts from SW in ONE minute. During the confrontation, ZC could have high tailed it back to 10th and College, with Lauren following right after the confrontation. Yes, video purportedly shows Lauren very messed up--what was so important, what did Zoe Camp take with her that made Lauren muster whatever she had left to leave when she was safe and follow her to 10th and College?

3)Because we have been subliminally conditioned by her roommates, we have made a mistake, perhaps, in concluding her move back up to 5N was sexual
in some way--hooking up with CR, getting raped by her friends and acquaintances, etc. and her demise must be composed of this nature. [/B
My mind is very open to the 5N POIs being responsible, but it is equally open to the possiblity that these screwed up kids orchestrated a pogram of disapproval of Lauren, a cruel and misguided hazing of their friend highly fuelled by jealousy (#1), drugs and alcohol that resulted in her ostracization and flight from her own residence highly under the influence of drugs and alcohol and unable to make clear decisions and physically impaired, along with an acquaintance equally or moreso impaired. This could have resulted
in her eventually leaving 5N despite her friend's advice and she could have been, among other possibilities, snatched right off the street in a few seconds
by the multitude of unsavory creatures leaving town after a night of excesses.
Or, another group of "friends" from the hazing could have descended on her and while trying to either escalate the hazing or make amends, she passed in their company.

None of the decisions made that evening were the right decisions by anyone,
but IMO there were so many decisions made that we don't know about that anything could have happened after 4 a.m. that date.[/I]

(carried away with bolding and italics)

 

[Dixie811]

2)That as a result, she was more than likely gang raped by these men, killed, and her body disposed of by these same men, one a childhood friend.

Hey Ix,

Which one of these men would you consider a childhood friend?

If you are referring to JR, I think there were rumors that Lauren and JR had been childhood friends but Charlene cleared that up. Charlene stated in the 2013 anniversary video that JR was one of Lauren's acquaintances through HT, HT being the one who was actually friends with him. Lauren knew him because she had accompanied HT to his apartment for parties in the past.

I (JMO) would not endearingly call him a "childhood friend", as Charlene stated they were not in fact friends but rather acquaintances, or friend-of-a-friend.

Just my opinion!