IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #30

[akh]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'why isn't the case further along?" LE may be able to prove she was incapacitated and carried home, but that doesn't tell them where she is. I have no doubt that this is part of the reason the POI are POI though.

For all we know the video(s) could contain mitigating evidence. I'd say the 5N POI are POI because they were he last known people to be with her and her disappearance seems to be in that same general window of time.

Since we've never seen the video, let alone had the video even described in its entirety, it would be the same as 'assuming facts not in evidence' to claim the video shows something that makes the POI's POI's...

As for what I mean by the case being further along... If the video proves she was incapacitated and incoherent and in no way able to walk or talk then it would be confirmation that 5N were lying. So at that point you know you have to leave no stone unturned to prove the rest of theory. You could focus resources. You wouldn't need to look into random abduction, stalkers, etc in your search for evidence if it's clear she was taken to 5N against her will or in a state where she was unable to resist or leave of her own accord. So you'd have a pinpoint ability to narrow down what must've happened in a situation where there's only so many possibilities and people to be involved. You would also have much more leverage if it was obvious you were being lied to about her condition and things that were said to have happened. Maybe LE doesn't tip their hand early and use that leverage, but at what point do they?

 

[Jupiter812]

@ Jupiter,

My impression is that the PI was responding to a question about whether or not she was alive at that point. (At least, that was the insinuation, I believe. There was speculation that he could have been carrying a body.) : "Oh, no, she was alive and well." [then catches himself] "Well, maybe not so well..." or something along those lines. If the question had been 'what condition was she in', I'll bet it would have been answered differently.

Ciravolo responded to Colvin's question about whether she was moving or unconscious. Ciravolo is quick to respond that she "was alive and well."

Throughout all of these descriptions, I'd like to know what, if anything, was she expressing facially, verbally, etc.

Ciravolo's take on CR's fall is interesting too. He takes it seriously, if not sympathetic, by adding that CR fell on tile then he catches himself (just like in the Lauren clip) and starts mumbling.

 

[AbbeyR]

For all we know the video(s) could contain mitigating evidence....

There could be all kinds of evidence that we don't know about that points to or away from the POI. I'm going on what we actually know so far.

 

[Ros]

Since ZO didn't take steps for Lauren's safety, I'm thinking it was plain 'ole testosterone fueled by whatever drugs and alcohol might have been consumed by the two males, and that ZO found Lauren's state a reason for the punch. Once he got his punch in, he was satisfied.

I got the impression that the punch was in response to a remark CR made rather than an attempt to stop CR's behavior toward LS. I have wondered whether the confrontation really had anything to do with LS. If it were really motivated by a desire to protect LS, it seems that they would have stepped in to escort LS to her apartment and let CR go his way alone.

 

[AbbeyR]

Well, the PI say it started over concern about Lauren.

The bar manager witness also stopped out of concern, but didn't escort Lauren to safety.

It's terrible looking back and thinking that Lauren could have been brought home so easily. But I can also see how things wouldn't be black or white. If you stopped someone because you were concerned about a really intoxicated girl being 'helped' away by a guy, but he reassured you everything was fine and things were under control, you might believe him and you might not. What would/ could you do then?...

 

[imkeylime]

I'm not sure how much free will someone has when they are so intoxicated that they can't walk or talk. This is my issue. Even if they liked each other; Even if they flirted the weekend before, or even earlier that night-- I don't really see why it's relevant. Every single bit of evidence we have suggests that there's no way Lauren could have gotten to 5 N on her own, and that when CR brought her there she was beyond the point of being able to consent to anything or to care for herself.

I mostly agree, Abbey, and I do question whether LS could have left 5N, since she had such a hard time en route. But if she somehow did make it there and later somehow leave, it might be relevant. Say, for example, she stumbled out of JR's but realized she couldn't make it to SW or even JW's. CR's could have been a likely stop if she felt comfortable with him ... and if CR really was passed out, that could leave her with MB.

Also, it could be relevant if the buzz was that CR was interested in her and she wasn't shutting him down ... and JW heard about it. I really haven't given JW too much thought until lately, but his mom's response (the "100 percent sure" thing, for example) was kind of weird. Just saying ...

 

[imkeylime]

Well, the PI say it started over concern about Lauren.

The bar manager witness also stopped out of concern, but didn't escort Lauren to safety.

It's terrible looking back and thinking that Lauren could have been brought home so easily. But I can also see how things wouldn't be black or white. If you stopped someone because you were concerned about a really intoxicated girl being 'helped' away by a guy, but he reassured you everything was fine and things were under control, you might believe him and you might not. What would/ could you do then?...

It really does make you think, though, which is one thing we can do in LS' memory. Even if you just see someone who might be in a dangerous place. I've caught myself thinking about possible consequences more, but it's so not B&W ... seeing an old friend of my son's walking alone on a dark side road with headphones on, for example. Was he walking steady? Would cars coming around the curve see him? Should I have turned around and offered him a ride? Thankfully, he made it home. He lived on that road, not too far up ... but how far is too far, you know?

 

[Jupiter812]

I got the impression that the punch was in response to a remark CR made rather than an attempt to stop CR's behavior toward LS. I have wondered whether the confrontation really had anything to do with LS. If it were really motivated by a desire to protect LS, it seems that they would have stepped in to escort LS to her apartment and let CR go his way alone.

ZO’s bravado took hold when he saw the beast and he went into survival and protection mode. The beast challenged him; ZO fought him; and the beast walked away. I really think it could be that simple.

 

[Jupiter812]

It really does make you think, though, which is one thing we can do in LS' memory. Even if you just see someone who might be in a dangerous place. I've caught myself thinking about possible consequences more, but it's so not B&W ... seeing an old friend of my son's walking alone on a dark side road with headphones on, for example. Was he walking steady? Would cars coming around the curve see him? Should I have turned around and offered him a ride? Thankfully, he made it home. He lived on that road, not too far up ... but how far is too far, you know?

Definitely. I observe with a much more cautious eye now and am more apt to take action. Assume the worse and err on the safe side.

 

[Jupiter812]

Well, the PI say it started over concern about Lauren.

The bar manager witness also stopped out of concern, but didn't escort Lauren to safety.

It's terrible looking back and thinking that Lauren could have been brought home so easily. But I can also see how things wouldn't be black or white. If you stopped someone because you were concerned about a really intoxicated girl being 'helped' away by a guy, but he reassured you everything was fine and things were under control, you might believe him and you might not. What would/ could you do then?...

The only person who can speak for her is herself. Don't take his word for it. Most of these situations will not end up in death but could and do result in rape, assault, battery, and violation of who knows what--her purse, her apartment...

 

[akh]

ZO’s bravado took hold when he saw the beast and he went into survival and protection mode. The beast challenged him; ZO fought him; and the beast walked away. I really think it could be that simple.

I tend to believe more this direction too... But then that also makes me believe the entire scenario really wasn't about protecting LS or direct concern about her. If it was then why didn't they do more? Unless she was fully able to make it known she didn't want their protection and would do what she wanted. Maybe concern about her not being with JW would make more sense to me if that was proven the case (that they have that type of connection with JW to care?).

But the story has been framed as being concern over her and her condition. And for that, it doesn't sit right with me. And if she didn't leave with CR willingly, then why would they allow him to take her at all? They've just punched him so obviously fear of violence isn't an issue (Edit: Point being it's not like they can say they ordered him to leave her alone and he didn't listen so there was nothing else they could do. At least one of them (ZO allegedly) showed that being physical wasn't an obstacle here).

 

[sammi89]

According to this: http://www.lohud.com/flash/spierer/

The encounter between ZO and LS & CR was initially out of concern for LS, but they (the PIs) said the actual punch occured after CR got "mouthy" with ZO (according to the above link!! I know some people might be skeptical of those accounts anyway).

Maybe I'm naive, but I really don't see a major problem with the idea that a male might see a very small, tiny girl who, by witness accounts, was very out of it, and ask if she was okay. I believe others would also later stop them and ask if LS was okay after they left ZO & Smallwood, which seems to corroborate the notion that LS was in noticeably bad shape.

I also don't see a problem with the punch having nothing to do with LS at that point and being solely about the fact that CR was "disrespecting" ZO. Just because ZO stopped and asked if she was okay doesn't mean he is necessarily going to fight CR for possession of her lol. I know CR had been in trouble with Smallwood before; was ZO ever in trouble with Smallwood? If ZO had decided decided to continue to push for LS to be taken home, that might have meant more trouble for him than he may have been willing to take on. Regardless, ZO knocked CR to the ground and proved his point (in his head), so I wouldn't be shocked if ZO didn't give LS a second thought at that point. He thought he was being a nice guy, CR was a jerk, and LS wasn't exactly thanking him (which, from what witnesses have been reported saying, may have been because she was just so out of it). If that's what happened, I'm sure ZO probably feels bad he didn't do more.

But really, what was he supposed to do at that point? He couldn't have predicted she would be missing in the morning, and I think the most natural assumption would be that even if she was in bad shape, she would sleep it off (sad in this case because it seems like one plausible theory is that everyone assumed she would sleep it off and unfortunately, she very well could have overdosed).

I'm not saying ZO is a good guy or not, but the fact that he even took the time to ask if she was okay was more than what her own friends did that night and I think that should be considered. The fight was bizarre when you look at the big picture of the night, but in context of two young guys who had both probably been drinking that night trying to prove who the bigger man was, it's at least explainable.

 

[Jupiter812]

Excellent, Sammi89.

 

[Dixie811]

I would love to see the video from Smallwood. Particularly of Lauren an CR making their way out of the building after the altercation.

_____________________

I have a quick question... although, I haven't had my coffee yet so excuse me if we already know the answer to this.

What if CR and LS were at Smallwood because he was bringing her home for the night and then he himself was going to continue on home to 5N? (I have expressed before that I doubt her apartment would have been a "hook up" location because of the presence of her friends/roommates who knew JW). So what if the plan was once he got her into her apartment for the night he was going to go home to 5N alone, but when he had a 'pi**ing contest' altercation with ZO and was clocked in the head Lauren suggested or insisted she walk with him home and get him into bed or into the care of MB.

It may sound a little far fetched, because many of us feel that Lauren was so incapacitated that she may not have been able to think or speak for herself. However, this scenario still fits (IMO) with her being very intoxicated. Very intoxicated young adults often do not realize just how intoxicated they are and believe that they can do tasks that are unrealistic or dangerous due to their incapacitated state at the time. If she was still functioning, she may have seen this suggestion as feasible. Of course we all know now that the idea of LS helping anyone, including herself at that point sounds almost ridiculous.

The reason this has been on my mind is because in my mind it explains the back and forth foot travel at the end of the night. I have never understood why they would stop at Smallwood briefly (apparently not even making it to Lauren's apartment, CR perhaps having to leave due to ZO... but she could stay because she lives there) and then leave and go to 5N, then Lauren (supposedly) try to turn right back around and go back to Smallwood.


Sorry if that was not clearly written, I am rushing on my way out the door and out of town for the weekend!

 

[sammi89]

I wrote a second post last night re: JW's actions but it was very late and I either didn't actually post it or perhaps it got deleted?

In the beginning, I think the first huge red flag with JW was his jumping to conclusions. Why did he, after a few hours of looking for her, finding her phone (at that time, did they know about the shoes too?), and finding out she had not gone home, immediately think the worst and call her parents?

However, I don't think jumping to conclusions is necessarily limited to JW.

1. Her parents were calling hospitals by that afternoon looking to see if maybe LS had been admitted there. I'm not a parent so I'm not sure how normal that is in the first few hours of their daughter just sort of not responding. I would think a missing kid is probably worrisome at minimum, but in the context of knowing she had been out partying very late the night before? They also booked a flight and arrived the next day, right? I am NOT criticizing their worry at all, but it makes me wonder what was said to them to start calling hospitals and booking flights. What if LS HAD just been sleeping it off somewhere? Those actions might seem a little more extreme had that happened (and it's so sad that isn't what happened). What exactly did JW say he had heard?

2. I know initial reports said JW filed the missing persons report, but I thought later reports said her friends filed the report (I had a link last night stating only that her "friends" filed it; I thought I read somewhere else it may have been BW & HT). This seems like a big deal. This is more than just JW telling her friends, "hey, LS is MISSING!" and them just agreeing that this is possible. The fact that they took the time out of their day to physically go to the police station, seriously talk to the police (who probably weren't very convinced at that point that their late-night partying friend was, in fact, missing), and file a real, bona fide missing persons report is pretty big. Not only that, but given some of their histories with the police, I highly doubt that was a place they were super comfortable at. To me, that says, that whatever they heard from JW or elsewhere was enough to convince them that this was serious. I'm not sure if HT's comment was related, but when I think about it that way, the comments about it "going too far" really make me wonder.

Short personal story: Studying abroad, A friend of mine stayed behind with another friend drinking at a bar and at some point, met a guy who convinced her to go home with him. The other friend tried talking her out of it, but she refused, so he left her go with the local. Her phone died and she didn't show up the next morning. I was freaked and wanted to get some kind of help, but the rest of our friends said it was no big deal and to wait until that night and if she didn't show up, we would report it the next day. She turned up a few hours later fine. But seriously, this took place in a foreign country! lol.

Having that experience, I think it is a little weird that her friends went along with the missing persons report early on. I can see them being concerned and maybe even agreeing that she appears to be missing, but to actually go file the report?

That's not saying JW didn't do additional weird stuff afterward. It just seems like everyone had jumped to the conclusion something bad had happened. Why? What did JW hear? What did he say to her parents? Did LS' friends hear the same thing from JW, or someone else? Hopefully, whatever got the kids hyped up was related back to police. Of course, JW could have just manufactured some scary story to throw everyone off if he was really behind it, but whatever was said, had to have been believable to these people at the time and also not tip them off (at the time, at least).

 

[akh]

Sammi,
That's a good point and I've thought about that too. In my mind the potential answers are:
Someone as close to her as the BF could ratchet up the level of worry with the others. Especially if nobody was able to counter his worry at any step so everything would keep adding up to equal 'missing'.

At some point they all had to learn of the things of the previous night as they retraced her steps and talked to people. Again, all adding up to missing. Maybe he learned something much earlier than the public narrative has told us too (which either could help explain his own actions or could further implicate him as a suspect).

If he was intentionally trying to cover his own involvement then he could and likely would throw the kitchen sink at trying to show his own concern that she's missing (which takes us back to point #1).

Unless he had a habit of crying wolf I'd think his concern would quickly infect others too... which also takes us back to point #1.

So... IOW.... I think his initial concern, whatever the motive, would be sufficient to ramp up the fears of others. And it would quickly snowball as more info came in and no sign of her would emerge. At least for friends and family. I'm skeptical that LE would move that quickly into a 'search' mode outside of just telling others to look for a girl fitting her description while they were out on their normal rounds. But again, it all depends on what was known and when, and what was relayed to the various people that day.

 

[Ixchel13]

Sammi,
That's a good point and I've thought about that too. In my mind the potential answers are:
Someone as close to her as the BF could ratchet up the level of worry with the others. Especially if nobody was able to counter his worry at any step so everything would keep adding up to equal 'missing'.

At some point they all had to learn of the things of the previous night as they retraced her steps and talked to people. Again, all adding up to missing. Maybe he learned something much earlier than the public narrative has told us too (which either could help explain his own actions or could further implicate him as a suspect).

If he was intentionally trying to cover his own involvement then he could and likely would throw the kitchen sink at trying to show his own concern that she's missing (which takes us back to point #1).

Unless he had a habit of crying wolf I'd think his concern would quickly infect others too... which also takes us back to point #1.

So... IOW.... I think his initial concern, whatever the motive, would be sufficient to ramp up the fears of others. And it would quickly snowball as more info came in and no sign of her would emerge. At least for friends and family. I'm skeptical that LE would move that quickly into a 'search' mode outside of just telling others to look for a girl fitting her description while they were out on their normal rounds. But again, it all depends on what was known and when, and what was relayed to the various people that day.

no I totally agree with you, I think, IMO, that people did know that early morning that she didn't return to SW, why they are
either outright lying, or just avoiding the questions by refusing to talk to LE,
who knows that answer? The roommates/friends of roommates, especially HT and Zoe Camp,I think they knew, and outside of the basic press conference/newspaper interview ZC gave 2 years later, we don't have any idea what these girls said to LE. Or if they cooperated. Sure, at the beginning the 2 roomies gave press interviews and went on TV, they looked like deer in headlights, and to me, like they were evading the truth during those interviews, but as far as actually taking a poly or going on LE record, I don't think any of the women involved did. Everyone keeps saying that Lauren was the only woman around that late evening, I don't believe that for a second. The girls could be trading their silence as far as who was giving out the drugs, etc, for the guys keeping them totally out of the scenario.
At first, when I heard the story, I thought, "are these guys gay?" because absolutely no women were mentioned in the scenario, then obviously, this was discussed on PT and it's like no, they aren't gay. Then you have to figure--why are the other women left out of the scenario? IMO, parents of these people, guys and girls, have discussed this very situation and it's been decided that in return for their utter silence as far as the 5N POIs, they will be left out.
We have to figure out that something is going on, and has been going on, behind the scenes with these parents, all along. It's not just the silence of the 5N POIs. More phone calls were placed than those 2 that LE mentioned.
This has to be,even if the 5N guys did it, they were calling more than 2 people who supposedly didn't answer. If she did leave, someone at 5N, probably MB, called/texted others and they went looking for her and they knew she was missing all along, from probably about 20 minutes after she left, if she left, JRs. All MOO, JMO, IMO.

 

[monkey222]

Sammi..the quick missing person filing, coupled w this crowd's arrest history, has bothered me from Day 1. I agree w u 100%. Even in a foreign country..if someone "hooks up"..and is mia the next day..it is not normal..at least as i see it..to go to LE. My instinct would be to go to the last club bar etc..and ask around. So...what exactly did JW do..find out that am?? Or HT? What did girls do..the phone lines had to be burning that am from SW to 5N..

 

[Jupiter812]

I would love to see the video from Smallwood. Particularly of Lauren an CR making their way out of the building after the altercation.

_____________________

I have a quick question... although, I haven't had my coffee yet so excuse me if we already know the answer to this.

What if CR and LS were at Smallwood because he was bringing her home for the night and then he himself was going to continue on home to 5N? (I have expressed before that I doubt her apartment would have been a "hook up" location because of the presence of her friends/roommates who knew JW). So what if the plan was once he got her into her apartment for the night he was going to go home to 5N alone, but when he had a 'pi**ing contest' altercation with ZO and was clocked in the head Lauren suggested or insisted she walk with him home and get him into bed or into the care of MB.

It may sound a little far fetched, because many of us feel that Lauren was so incapacitated that she may not have been able to think or speak for herself. However, this scenario still fits (IMO) with her being very intoxicated. Very intoxicated young adults often do not realize just how intoxicated they are and believe that they can do tasks that are unrealistic or dangerous due to their incapacitated state at the time. If she was still functioning, she may have seen this suggestion as feasible. Of course we all know now that the idea of LS helping anyone, including herself at that point sounds almost ridiculous.

The reason this has been on my mind is because in my mind it explains the back and forth foot travel at the end of the night. I have never understood why they would stop at Smallwood briefly (apparently not even making it to Lauren's apartment, CR perhaps having to leave due to ZO... but she could stay because she lives there) and then leave and go to 5N, then Lauren (supposedly) try to turn right back around and go back to Smallwood.


Sorry if that was not clearly written, I am rushing on my way out the door and out of town for the weekend!

Some other not-out-of-the-realm-of possibilities are they went to Smallwood for "party supplies" (euphemism for drugs). Keylime has suggested over the years that she may have gone for her shoes. Really, it could be any number of things: lipstick, her medication, aspirin, a change of clothes (e.g., if she spilled a drink).

I so agree with you about intoxicated people. But it's possible she had been roofied.

 

[Jupiter812]

I wrote a second post last night re: JW's actions but it was very late and I either didn't actually post it or perhaps it got deleted?

In the beginning, I think the first huge red flag with JW was his jumping to conclusions. Why did he, after a few hours of looking for her, finding her phone (at that time, did they know about the shoes too?), and finding out she had not gone home, immediately think the worst and call her parents?

However, I don't think jumping to conclusions is necessarily limited to JW.

1. Her parents were calling hospitals by that afternoon looking to see if maybe LS had been admitted there. I'm not a parent so I'm not sure how normal that is in the first few hours of their daughter just sort of not responding. I would think a missing kid is probably worrisome at minimum, but in the context of knowing she had been out partying very late the night before? They also booked a flight and arrived the next day, right? I am NOT criticizing their worry at all, but it makes me wonder what was said to them to start calling hospitals and booking flights. What if LS HAD just been sleeping it off somewhere? Those actions might seem a little more extreme had that happened (and it's so sad that isn't what happened). What exactly did JW say he had heard?

2. I know initial reports said JW filed the missing persons report, but I thought later reports said her friends filed the report (I had a link last night stating only that her "friends" filed it; I thought I read somewhere else it may have been BW & HT). This seems like a big deal. This is more than just JW telling her friends, "hey, LS is MISSING!" and them just agreeing that this is possible. The fact that they took the time out of their day to physically go to the police station, seriously talk to the police (who probably weren't very convinced at that point that their late-night partying friend was, in fact, missing), and file a real, bona fide missing persons report is pretty big. Not only that, but given some of their histories with the police, I highly doubt that was a place they were super comfortable at. To me, that says, that whatever they heard from JW or elsewhere was enough to convince them that this was serious. I'm not sure if HT's comment was related, but when I think about it that way, the comments about it "going too far" really make me wonder.

Short personal story: Studying abroad, A friend of mine stayed behind with another friend drinking at a bar and at some point, met a guy who convinced her to go home with him. The other friend tried talking her out of it, but she refused, so he left her go with the local. Her phone died and she didn't show up the next morning. I was freaked and wanted to get some kind of help, but the rest of our friends said it was no big deal and to wait until that night and if she didn't show up, we would report it the next day. She turned up a few hours later fine. But seriously, this took place in a foreign country! lol.

Having that experience, I think it is a little weird that her friends went along with the missing persons report early on. I can see them being concerned and maybe even agreeing that she appears to be missing, but to actually go file the report?

That's not saying JW didn't do additional weird stuff afterward. It just seems like everyone had jumped to the conclusion something bad had happened. Why? What did JW hear? What did he say to her parents? Did LS' friends hear the same thing from JW, or someone else? Hopefully, whatever got the kids hyped up was related back to police. Of course, JW could have just manufactured some scary story to throw everyone off if he was really behind it, but whatever was said, had to have been believable to these people at the time and also not tip them off (at the time, at least).

The Spierers called the hospitals and acted quickly because of her Long QT heart condition. Charlene said they talked every day too.

Whatever her friends know that led them to report her missing so quickly is surely known by LE ny now (?) and perhaps the parents. This could be what's been reported about her and DR snorting before going to JR's or it could be more than that. Bo Deitl doesn't think the boys are hiding drug use because everyone in that quadrant of town does a lot of drugs. I think Bo is wrong and that he underestimates the boys and the boys' families self interest.