IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31

[Ixchel13]

she could have gone up to CRs, he passes out, then, she decides to double back to 10th and College and tries to get back into ZC's apt. Then, bar manager and man w. pointy sideburns come outside and another altercation happens--Lauren hits her head. Guy carries Lauren over his shoulder to JRs. Maybe Lauren actually left and went back yet again to
confront ZC. What did ZC have of Laurens? Sometimes I think it's her phone, and then sometimes I think LS might've thought JW was there.
Or, while Lauren was trying to process all of this in her condition, someone could have abducted her in a few seconds, and it happens all the time as we see on this board..
If it IS the 5N POIs, then there has to be more people involved, IMO.

 

[doubtingthomas]

So, who do you speculate that CR was looking for in this interval?
2:51 Alley slam, 3:30 MB calls JR

Maybe he was looking to make LS ZC's problem just like MB wanted to make LS JR's problem. I think he knew she was in bad shape at this point and he was trying to get rid of her.

 

[doubtingthomas]

Are the cameras that Btown has shown us motion sensored? If so, could LS have gone past them without activating them? Being as small as she was might not have activated them.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I thought it was more like this.



I suspect they visited or tried to visit someone at 10th & College Village Apartments. Especially since her items were found at the handrail just outside the exit door for that location...

Why would they have to go through the inside of Village Apts to have her keys and wallet near the handrail. I've always understood this to be just outside the alley to the left (as you illustrated). So instead of them going in a nice clean diagonal path, say CR with or without assistance, picks her up and brings her over to the area where the keys and wallet are found. From your wonderful photos it looks like a good place to sit against a building if one could not stand or walk. Wondering just how lit it was in that particular spot. But then from there the decision could be made to continue on over to Morton in a more or less diagonal fashion from that point and then up to 11th. Where the keys and wallet were found (what looks like a good 15 to 20 ft. from the alley), other than the 2 guys (was it AA and AR?) that found and saw the keys and wallet, was there any POI's or people connected to any POI's in that building? Just from the 2 guys (AA / AR?) being in that building that should have been enough for a search and sniff of that building too. For a long time I was amazed that there was no discussion about 10th and College building... but when the PI's dropped their bombshell suddenly it mattered. It does seem a little curious that there hasn't been any discussion about who lives at Village apts. I will agree that since the wallet and keys were so far over to the left of the alley it merits some poking.
But so far my gut feel is that CR just pulled her over there and then very likely over behind the dumpster. Remember the supposed cadaver dog hit there. If she passed away about this time, and that hit were genuine... that would be maybe where the red line stops.

 

[VeryVeritas]

If Lauren and Corey walked this paved alley to Morton before turning north on the sidewalk to 5N (to avoid walking barefoot on the gravel) as some have suggested... This camera should have caught that activity and it would have been a minute or two later than the camera at the NW corner of College Apts. which BPD claims was the last to see the two of them at 2:51 am.

And would it have missed them if CR carried LS from the handrail to the dumpster area behind 5N?

 

[VeryVeritas]

Piggy Back Style would require more effort on Lauren's part than she might have been capable of.

Also, when they say Corey carried her "slumped over his shoulder" I don't think they mean it in the way you illustrated.

I'll see if I can find a picture of the way I seen it described.

I think it was more like this:

Nice illustration, but that would have been back over at 10th and College that's where the Bar Manager Witness was. Exiting the alley at 2:51 came later and then LS was totally unconscious. It extremely likely that CR picked LS up again at that point because there is no proof she ever walked again.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Quite right.

Although, LE is not required to tell the truth.
In fact they frequently hold back information for a variety of reasons.

Well we do know they searched and swabbed CR's car right away. That speaks volumes.

 

[VeryVeritas]

If CR was carring her this way he would definitely know if she was breathing. She would be breathing in his ear. I can see the scenario where she has expired while he is carring her to 5N. He puts her down by the dumpster to go get help.(hense the area the dogs last pick up her scent). MB is not home because he is at JR's. They get together to plan how they are going to handle this. Calls are made with no answers. They find someone whose car is parked out by the dumpster or across the street to take her away. Now they have time to put their stories together. CR is up pretty early for some one that has been drinking all night, got punched in the face, threw up and then went to bed. My bet would be none of them went to bed till they knew she was gone. Just my opinion.

Exactly what i was thinking as I was catching up on this thread. 2 of us independently seeing it that way is interesting.

 

[Chuz Life]

My apologies to everyone for my slow response. I was pulled away for a hospital visit and I am just now getting back to the case.

Someone noted that I might have an error on the map and I want to review that right away and correct it if needed.

Please stay tuned.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I don't think that Corey's vomiting necessarily came about from too much drinking.

How many crime scenes have we all read about where someone gets sick and throws up just from the stress of dealing with a dead body?

This is all why we need to know everybody who was present that night at 5N.

There were supposed visitors from Michigan

Were their cars searched?

For all we know, one or more of those guys left for Michigan that night and took Lauren's body with them.

There is no known video of CR barfing, and from what is described in the video's and from witnesses it's always LS that is f'd up. There are no accounts of CR falling or barfing in videos. Everything suggests his condition was quite a bit better than LS even after being Clocked by ZO. No reason for him to have amnesia... MB says CR barfed, and I fully agree he would be more likely to be barfing from LS dying than being intoxicated.

Also agree there is a good possibility that friend(s) from MI disposed of body and signaled with the otherwise unnecessary Runcible Spoon tweet that something had been completed or was under control.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Definitely inclined to agree with you.

I'm inclined to disagree and agree partially.

Why would someone who doesn't attend the school come all the way from Michigan to visit the likes of JR?

a) One hell of a close friendship where yes you might do some serious favors for each other. For someone that has gutted a deer, disposing of a body for blood brother isn't that big of a stretch.

b) A bit more than a friendship, yes drug supplier relationship... in that case obvious motivation as partners in crime.

Any other plausible reason? Come down to party and get laid maybe? hmm...
I really don't think he drove all that way for some corned beef.

 

[Chuz Life]

Chuz Life, if I am reading this correctly, you have them going 318 feet in 6 minutes and 725 feet in 3 minutes. Is this correct?

As BX2 noted, I was wrong on part of my map. (I was being rushed but that is no excuse)...

Please review the new map when I post it and see what you think.

Thanks.

 

[VeryVeritas]

What about if she was still alive but waning? For example, if her organs were shutting down do you know if that would be detected or is it an either/or thing?

It's a valid point. Especially if some type of CPR were attempted. One would expect a release of bodily fluids and feces upon death... but this may have been protracted a bit.
I found this on the stages of what happens to the body at death:

1)
Your cells burst open. The process in which the human body decomposes starts just minutes after death. When the heart stops beating, we experience algor mortis, or the “death chill,” when the temperature of the body falls about 1.5 degrees Fahrenheit an hour until it reaches room temperature. Almost immediately, the blood becomes more acidic as carbon dioxide builds up. This causes cells to split open, emptying enzymes into the tissues, which start to digest themselves from within.
2)
You turn white — and purple. Gravity makes its mark on the human body in the first moments after death. While the rest of your body turns deathly pale, heavy red blood cells move to the parts of your body that are closest to the ground. This is because circulation has stopped. The results are purple splotches over your lower parts known as livor mortis. In fact, it is by studying the markings of livor mortis that the coroner can tell exactly what time you died.
3)
Calcium makes your muscles contract. We've all heard of rigor mortis, in which a dead body becomes stiff and hard to move. Rigor mortis generally sets in about three to four hours after death, peaks at 12 hours, and dissipates after 48 hours. Why does it happen? There are pumps in the membranes of our muscle cells that regulate calcium. When the pumps stop working in death, calcium floods the cells, causing the muscles to contract and stiffen. Thus, there is rigor mortis.
4)
Your organs will digest themselves. Putrefaction, or when our bodies start to look like extras in a zombie movie, follows rigor mortis. This phase is delayed by the embalming process, but eventually the body will succumb. Enzymes in the pancreas make the organ begin to digest itself. Microbes will tag-team these enzymes, turning the body green from the belly onwards. As Caroline Williams writes in NewScientist, “the main beneficiaries are among the 100 trillion bacteria that have spent their lives living in harmony with us in our guts.” As this bacterium breaks us down, it releases putrescine and cadaverine, which are the compounds which make the human body smell in death.

However, previously we have discussed how soon after death dogs can pick up the scent, and it's basically immediately. So for example the body could have sat over by the dumpster from 3:00 to 3:30 that would have been more than enough time to leave a distinct scent.

 

[VeryVeritas]

In a few previous discussions we've touched upon how these kids might have a "for hire" (my words) type of guy to clean up after them. I know some of you have problems with this theory and find it unbelievable or too much "like in the movies" but consider the antics of the fraternity and how they were busted, in part, for designing some extremely fearful scenarios to haze the newbies. Someone involved in that sort of thing could be tapped for a job such as what we have here. And that someone could be a townie, or an out-of-townie, not necessarily a friend or a frat guy.

No problem with that theory at all. In my short lifespan I have surprisingly crossed paths with more than one person cable and wiling for such a task.

 

[Dixie811]

I'm inclined to disagree and agree partially.

Why would someone who doesn't attend the school come all the way from Michigan to visit the likes of JR?

a) One hell of a close friendship where yes you might do some serious favors for each other. For someone that has gutted a deer, disposing of a body for blood brother isn't that big of a stretch.

b) A bit more than a friendship, yes drug supplier relationship... in that case obvious motivation as partners in crime.

Any other plausible reason? Come down to party and get laid maybe? hmm...
I really don't think he drove all that way for some corned beef.

I am not sure exactly how my comment was interpreted, but just to be clear, what I was inclined to agree with was the idea that JR and/or other POI's could easily have used the car of an overnight guest to transport Lauren with or without that person's knowledge. Any guests may have left car keys sitting around the common area of the apartment. If said guests were asleep/passed out in another room or still out partying at someone else's apartment their car could have been used without their knowledge.

I also agree with you that it is not a stretch to believe that such a guest, if very close friends with JR, may have assisted.

When my brother was in college he and his guy friends would visit each other at their respective colleges fairly often. That didn't necessarily mean they hung together the entire time. Once the partying started, they often ended up scattered. Also, I don't know where DB or other guests attended school, but often the kids that stayed close to home and went to Comm. College or a smaller school enjoyed traveling to the bigger schools to experience the party scene.

I have wondered before if JR's guests may have walked to another party (JR supposedly had run out of liquor) and were still out or crashing somewhere else when Lauren was present at JR's later that night. Or perhaps they were in bed with a girl in one of the bedrooms at JR's townhouse. At a big school like IU, just one state down from MI, it is likely that JR's guests knew at least several other students that lived in Bloomington.

I believe they probably would have helped JR if they could have... he seems to have such control over everyone... but I have always wondered if their involvement was limited due to being otherwise engaged during the key events that night.

 

[VeryVeritas]

The reason the CR/MB/JR scenario has never sat right with me, is that they never seemed all that 'connected'. Why would JR involve himself? I don't buy because of drinking/drugs. And I still don't believe that if all of these people were involved, someone would not have spoken up yet. Maybe not to LE, but to someone, somehow. Drunk, high, nothing has ever slipped to someone? I, for some reason, cannot wrap my head around that. At least one of them should be suffering immense guilt and should have broken to someone. MB gave CR a pass, right? "He passed out, I put him in bed." And JR gives MB a pass, "yep, he brought her to me, in my sweatpants." Yet, Corey is the only one that didn’t speak to the PI’s. Am I making the argument for a cover-up by these three despite my objections? MB and JR basically completely absolve Corey, what could he have on them?

OTOH, JR and DB are VERY connected. Maybe it was only DB visiting, or maybe DB and his brother? I can wrap my head around that possibility and the Michigan scenario. These are lifelong friends, now business partners (although, did DB move to IL to work in real estate, the family business? is there a crack in the partnership/friendship now?). But then, I go back to the polygraph and dogs, and police interviews and PI interviews.

There is not a crack in the stories that neither the police nor the PI’s can break open? MB and JR spoke with the PI’s. JR met with her parents. That seems like a HUGE risk if you know you are guilty. Again, these are spoiled college students, not hardened criminals. And they had to know the risk thru their lawyers, that anything they said could be used in a civil trial. And apparently is being used since we know a few new details based on the complaint.

Now what about JW? In Sept. 2010, both him and LS are arrested for public intox, with JW receiving an additional disorderly conduct. JW freaks when she isn’t at home and starts the whole process in motion. He (and his dad) have an outburst at CR’s apt. There is a later outburst the next year at a football game threatening JR. There is the OUTBURST by his parents. Yet, no one has really accused him of anything, He lawyered up and got the heck out of dodge quickly, which doesn’t mesh with his outbursts. He could have known/been informed where LS was that night, and been waiting parked below. The PI statements at Lohud say JR saw her walking toward College. He could have waited until JR went in and caught up with her. Am I changing my theory?

1) There is nothing to bring people together in a situation like a friend dropping dead. It never seemed to me like this was any kind of cross loyalty between CR and JR or MB and JR. Rather they all found themselves tied together by this mess and the perceived safest thing to do was for CR to have amnesia (that ends any discrepancy in his story right there), and then for MB and CR to get the hand off story straight. It doesn't matter what JR makes up happened at his place or after his place. All MB needs to talk about is her arrival and rapid departure. I've always thought that MB was caught up in the middle of this, but then "fearing" he would be considered culpable agreed to go along with the story. And his story could mostly be true. CR very likely did puke... MB maybe very well had to calm him down, LS may have been there, now his lies are bigger if she was laying out by the dumpster or was on his floor dead. His lies smaller if she really was there breathing and then she went to JR's.. his lie then pretty much limited to her actual condition. This latter possibility seemed probable because of your suspicion... that MB wouldn't stick his neck out for CR if she were not there. But once MB one way or the other is foist into the middle of it, he certainly does have motivation to go with the flow to cover up so that he is not suspected of wronging. The decisions people make in a panicked situation aren't necessarily how they normally behave. In that situation MB may have been afraid of how it looked and their story looked a lot better. JR on the other hand, could have multiple motivations. For one, she was there partying at his place earlier in the evening. No question that he knew her. No question there were drugs at his place that night. So, bringing this to JR's attention he may have full well appreciated. Because, if she were found anywhere no doubt he would be held culpable for events at his place earilier that evening. And if he knew she were all banged up (as he seemed to describe - he knew) how might that might appear to LE? It's not so much that CR would be blackmailing JR... it would be quite normal to see the implications for any of them. The motive for a conspiracy need not be so complex. It would have traced back to CR and JR anyway... and no doubt in my mind that they would have been treated much worse had CR called LE with her laying out behind 5N in his condition, and also no doubt it would have traced back to JR. Toxicology reports would have likely aimed that sort of culpability at them as well. Again MB seems to have got caught in the middle simply because he was CR's roommate. The best thing for him to do was pass the buck to JR and that's what he did (even if it didn't go down as he said it did). What good would it do to have CR and MB pointing fingers at JR and his party and drugs, while CR was with LS the whole time she was getting banged up and passing out? They both had/have clear culpability here. And were smart enough to see that by pointing the fingers at each other they would both go down.

2)
As for JW, these are very astute observations. However, what you suggest is a crime of passion. And as you have pointed out he and his family are prone to irrational outbursts. So, suddenly he becomes rational, cool calculating and stealthy and conspires with others to commit premeditated murder on the person he loves and keep that a total secret. That seems more plausible to you than CR/MB/JR pact? What I could buy is JW pulling a surprise attack on CR or JR in a fit of rage. But do not see him offing his gf when she is already unconscious and seriously injured. These pieces do not fit together here.

 

[VeryVeritas]

This report says that Rohn was back home by 12:30 am


http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1712477

This has always confused me a bit, since it was said that Lauren and DR went to JR's together, but Lauren's mom made a point of saying that Lauren last used her phone from Smallwood at 12:16 am.

Yes, DR leaving almost as soon as arriving with LS was curious.
Also found it interesting when CS pointed that out about 12:16 being the last time LS used her phone. If someone snatched her phone, causing her to think DR had it, it could mesh with JR's account of the 4:15 call to DR. But JR may have also been aware of the possible phone charade. Say for example that CR took it and turned it off to prevent contact with JW. Later when they are at Kilroys he leaves it there. I don't recall details from Kilroys of exactly where the phone was found in proximity to the shoes. It would definitely seem odd that she would not have touched the phone at all if she had it at JR's and brought it to Kilroys, unless she was already severely incapacitated even before leaving JR's at 1:00ish. Which do you think it is? That someone snagged her phone or that she was so out of it before leaving JR's that she couldn't use it and then lost it at Kilroys?

 

[VeryVeritas]

One thing I thought was interesting looking back was that Gatto 'broke the news' about the 'mystery man' on the same day that LE released a timeline of the night. This is kind of significant since this story had a huge effect on challenging the timeline and took the focus off the POI and on to a 'mysterious stranger'. Somehow, he managed to find and interview a key witness in this case, and broke the story when LE was hardly releasing any information at all.

The witness account appears again in the accounts from the PIs in the Lohud video, but it's confirmed that the man is Corey. So there are two details that stand out in Gatto's account, and that he deliberately emphasized, which are different: the description of the man as 'dark skinned' and the 3:38 time. Obviously it's possible the witness just got these things wrong -- witnesses are often bad at describing people, it was late at night, etc. But then, I wonder: Why did Gatto keep insisting on these details and how sure the witness was? Was the witness herself really certain? Did he think LE got it wrong?...

When we asked what she meant by the description of 'dark skinned', Gatto had no idea if she even meant tanned or black. He wasn't sure about the round-pointy sideburns. But, he emphasized that the person was not any of the POI and definitely not Corey Rossman. He says the witness said this, on the basis of looking at photos -- As Jupiter mentioned above, I'd be curious to know who showed her the pictures, and when, considering she was also working with an LE sketch artist. If the mystery man wasn't a POI, I wonder why he didn't try to get a more detailed physical description -- wouldn't this be the important part?

Unfortunately, Gatto couldn't answer questions like whether 'dark skinned' referred to skin tone or race, or why she was certain of the exact time, because he said the witness wouldn't speak to him again (Someone had gotten to her -- he doesn't explain this). That also means he couldn't show her pictures of anyone else to see if it might fit her description. But if you re-read the posts here, you can see the theory of the 'mystery man' evolve. First the guy who found the keys was considered as a potential candidate, but then someone suggested ZO's roommate, which fit in nicely with the internet campaign that was focusing on ZO at PT. This person didn't match the height or weight description, but was 'dark skinned' and had sideburns. He then posted pictures and tweets of this person and their friends, none of whom were POI, not so subtly allowing people to 'connect the dots'. He did not, however, manage to confirm the rumors about ZO, or whether the potential 'mystery man' was in Bloomington, let alone out that night. He also didn't make any direct allegations, but there's no question that his blog was considered a source of information, and these guys names still pop up in theories here, and are mentioned as 'POI', even though there doesn't appear to be a shred of evidence pointing to them having anything to do with Lauren's disappearance.

So, I know, I've pointed this out before, but every time I go back to a Gatto post, I find it curious how every single piece of 'breaking news' that Gatto uncovered himself was about Corey not being involved:

- Lauren was at the bar by herself, and not with Corey Rossman
- The 'mystery man' was definitely not Corey Rossman
- Corey ran out of Smallwood by himself, and Lauren followed him later
- He also described Corey as being the most 'forthcoming' of the POI, which is a little odd considering the whole amnesia thing...

And they were all wrong, but no corrections or updates were made to his blog, as far as I know. I know I sound critical, but Tony himself responded to people's questions about his blog by drawing attention to himself not as a 'blogger' but as an award-winning journalist, so that invites the same kinds of questions you would ask of any investigative reporting. He was contacting people closely involved with the case, people on PT and here, offering anonymity in exchange for information, so it really makes me wonder who may have influenced his theories about this case. I'd also like to know how he found the bar manager witness, whether his info came entirely from his meeting with her, and whether he verified the sources he was getting information from somehow, since he said he only spoke to one source in person. (I wish I could read his notes!)

Very curious observations. Yes, as it was unfolding I remember being so hungry for information that the Gatto news was gobbled up. There is also no question that various posters seemed to have agendas.

But i'm not quite sure if you are suggesting that CR supplied this information to Gatto himself? If so, it would seem like a risky move on his part as the amnesia story seemed to serve him well. But with respect to your specific examples doesn't the distortions of the "Mystery Man" not only deflect from CR but JR as well? I really do wonder how Gatto found the Bar Manager.
Why do you think the Bar Manager would insist and use such a specific time as 3:38 when it had to be off by pretty much exactly 1 hr?
Are you suggesting a possible conspiracy here to distort the facts?
Essentially obstruction of justice?

 

[VeryVeritas]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/02/missing-student-boyfriend-family-fume/2382909/

From the above link:
Rosenbaum told investigators that either Spierer or Rohn told him they'd crushed up and snorted Klonopin, a drug used for seizures and panic attacks

Would this have kept her from having seizures if she had not taken her medicine?

Interesting logic... perhaps it's possible. More likely a coma that later resulted in death. If she were comatose she might have seemed dead with shallow breathing. Not being immediately treated, or perhaps with some CPR prolonging it for a while, she may have then died. If she at all made it to CR/MB's place this is more what I'd envisioned.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Earlier I posted about the possibility of CR placing LS by the dumpster and getting one of JR's friends to take her away. Another scenario could be that one or all three 5N guys found one of JR's overnight guest car keys. They borrow the car, take her away, return the car, and none of the overnight guest are aware of what has happened until later the next day. Would explain why they are not considered a POI.

Possible, less people to involve. One way or another she was moved and that would have been a vehicle.