IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31

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The thing I still can't totally get past about DB is, why was he never named a POI or mentioned by the Spierers or anyone else?

After reading the rumor about the ping in Martinsville, this stood out to me in an article about Jim Voyles, JR's lawyer -- He has defended at least 3 clients in murder trials that involved cell phone data:



http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/Story.aspx?id=1447543

Even if cell phone data isn't involved, the bolded part above is worth remembering.

I think he's a very plausible POI who hasn't been named publicly, he was there with JR.. Possibly won't be until there is something tying him to her death and he is not being sued because there is zero information from him, and no video, and the others are to easily accessible by their own admissions to being with her.
 
Earlier I posted about the possibility of CR placing LS by the dumpster and getting one of JR's friends to take her away. Another scenario could be that one or all three 5N guys found one of JR's overnight guest car keys. They borrow the car, take her away, return the car, and none of the overnight guest are aware of what has happened until later the next day. Would explain why they are not considered a POI.
 
Earlier I posted about the possibility of CR placing LS by the dumpster and getting one of JR's friends to take her away. Another scenario could be that one or all three 5N guys found one of JR's overnight guest car keys. They borrow the car, take her away, return the car, and none of the overnight guest are aware of what has happened until later the next day. Would explain why they are not considered a POI.

I definitely agree that this could have happened. Makes sense to me.

However, not to nitpick, I don't think we can say that the overnight guest(s) are not considered POI's. I believe at one time LE said they had a list of about 10 POI's. JR, CR, MB, and JW are the POI's spoken about in the media of course and I think they bear the majority of the scrutiny. But I do believe overnight guests at JR's are still POI's.
 
I believe that I read Zoe Camp was asleep when Lauren and Corey knocked on her door. Their visit to her place was likely discovered by LE reviewing video from a hard drive.
The video from her hallway might be pretty clear because it was likely lighted in there.
However the video from outside is mostly infrared and it won't be clear unless you are near the camera.
And, I was told that the tracking dogs lost Lauren's live scent in the area of the alley going towards Morton Street. So, it is likely that something happened there. She died. She passed out. Or, she was put in a car.

if she did leave JR's and was pulled into one of the walkways it would lead to the back parking of 5N and then that very alley you're talking about, towards Morton Street and out that way in a car and no cameras.
 
One thing I thought was interesting looking back was that Gatto 'broke the news' about the 'mystery man' on the same day that LE released a timeline of the night. This is kind of significant since this story had a huge effect on challenging the timeline and took the focus off the POI and on to a 'mysterious stranger'. Somehow, he managed to find and interview a key witness in this case, and broke the story when LE was hardly releasing any information at all.

The witness account appears again in the accounts from the PIs in the Lohud video, but it's confirmed that the man is Corey. So there are two details that stand out in Gatto's account, and that he deliberately emphasized, which are different: the description of the man as 'dark skinned' and the 3:38 time. Obviously it's possible the witness just got these things wrong -- witnesses are often bad at describing people, it was late at night, etc. But then, I wonder: Why did Gatto keep insisting on these details and how sure the witness was? Was the witness herself really certain? Did he think LE got it wrong?...

When we asked what she meant by the description of 'dark skinned', Gatto had no idea if she even meant tanned or black. He wasn't sure about the round-pointy sideburns. But, he emphasized that the person was not any of the POI and definitely not Corey Rossman. He says the witness said this, on the basis of looking at photos -- As Jupiter mentioned above, I'd be curious to know who showed her the pictures, and when, considering she was also working with an LE sketch artist. If the mystery man wasn't a POI, I wonder why he didn't try to get a more detailed physical description -- wouldn't this be the important part?

Unfortunately, Gatto couldn't answer questions like whether 'dark skinned' referred to skin tone or race, or why she was certain of the exact time, because he said the witness wouldn't speak to him again (Someone had gotten to her -- he doesn't explain this). That also means he couldn't show her pictures of anyone else to see if it might fit her description. But if you re-read the posts here, you can see the theory of the 'mystery man' evolve. First the guy who found the keys was considered as a potential candidate, but then someone suggested ZO's roommate, which fit in nicely with the internet campaign that was focusing on ZO at PT. This person didn't match the height or weight description, but was 'dark skinned' and had sideburns. He then posted pictures and tweets of this person and their friends, none of whom were POI, not so subtly allowing people to 'connect the dots'. He did not, however, manage to confirm the rumors about ZO, or whether the potential 'mystery man' was in Bloomington, let alone out that night. He also didn't make any direct allegations, but there's no question that his blog was considered a source of information, and these guys names still pop up in theories here, and are mentioned as 'POI', even though there doesn't appear to be a shred of evidence pointing to them having anything to do with Lauren's disappearance.

So, I know, I've pointed this out before, but every time I go back to a Gatto post, I find it curious how every single piece of 'breaking news' that Gatto uncovered himself was about Corey not being involved:

- Lauren was at the bar by herself, and not with Corey Rossman
- The 'mystery man' was definitely not Corey Rossman
- Corey ran out of Smallwood by himself, and Lauren followed him later
- He also described Corey as being the most 'forthcoming' of the POI, which is a little odd considering the whole amnesia thing...

And they were all wrong, but no corrections or updates were made to his blog, as far as I know. I know I sound critical, but Tony himself responded to people's questions about his blog by drawing attention to himself not as a 'blogger' but as an award-winning journalist, so that invites the same kinds of questions you would ask of any investigative reporting. He was contacting people closely involved with the case, people on PT and here, offering anonymity in exchange for information, so it really makes me wonder who may have influenced his theories about this case. I'd also like to know how he found the bar manager witness, whether his info came entirely from his meeting with her, and whether he verified the sources he was getting information from somehow, since he said he only spoke to one source in person. (I wish I could read his notes!)

BBM don't worry about being critical, Gatto skewed the public opinion with misconceptions and supposed "witnesses" from the git go.
 
I just meant I'm curious more than critical. It seems like there were already a lot of people trying to skew public opinion whether it was through MSM, anonymous comments or lawyers when Gatto's blog came along, and especially at the beginning of this case when there was hardly any information, it was really hard to know who was a legitimate 'insider' and whether they had any kind of agenda. I would really like to hear TG's perspective on the case and the POI now, but he hasn't responded.

(Maybe someone got to him too :p)
 
So just who was footing Gatto's bills while he was in Bloomington? When he first came to town I thought it was the Spierer's.
 
Someone asked him that here, and he claimed he had no connection to the Spierers. I believe he said he was footing his own bills, which is why he ended up leaving Bloomington. But I wonder why he was interested in the case in the first place? It doesn't seem like he's done investigative journalism before or since or had any other blogs devoted to a single case, but I could easily be wrong.

Edited to add: I hope he was working for the Spierers -- that would mean they (and LE) might have gained some interesting info and know who some of those anonymous tipsters and PT 'insiders' were. (I have some ideas!)
 
OK

dp34.jpg

I don't know how significant this is...

BUT!

According to the video time stamps and the time lines so far released by the police, this route would not have been possible, Btown.

The time line released by BPD says that LS and CR entered the alley just north of Smallwood at ~ 2:46 am. They claim the two of them were last seen by the camera at the North West Corner of "College Apartments" at 2:51 am.

That's only a FIVE minutes interval.

There would not have been time enough to stop by Zoe Camp's apt or to bee seen sitting on the steps - given the time intervals between the cameras. along the route.

So, if Lauren and Corey actual did try to get to Zoe's Room or if they were actually seen sitting on the steps... it would have HAD to have been AFTER they were last seen exiting north between those two buildings.

Correct?

So, if Zoe Camp insists that CR and LS was ringing her doorbell or knocking at 2:30 am... she's at least 20 minutes off in her recollection.

Check out this Cached Link that I found.

In this article, Zoe is quoted as giving the time of 3:00 am instead of 2:30 am.

That time would not only be plausible... But it would put CR and LS on that (East) side of College Apartments at 3:00 and it would not then be too much time later - for them to be seen on the South east Corner Steps (under the clock) at 3:38 am... where LS was seen falling over and hitting her head.

Are you with me so far?

The next obvious question would be...

1. "Why didn't the videos capture LS and CR (or the mystery man) re-entering the alley as claimed by the Bar Manager?
2. "What happened between "3:38 am" and "4:15 - 4:30 am" to make Rosenbaum place himself as the last person to see Lauren alive?
 
Chuz Life, all good finds, thank you. But I can't see them hanging at Tenth & College Apts for 38 minutes. Not only were they on the move since leaving Sports, more witnesses would have seen them in the vicinity.
 
Another reason for using alley way vs street would be to avoid LE because if prior underage drinking charges..and of course the night's illegal drug use. Of course that goes against JR letting...or LS willingly turning onto main street to go to SW..she would be a sitting duck for LE to pick up...
 
I don't know how significant this is...

BUT!

According to the video time stamps and the time lines so far released by the police, this route would not have been possible, Btown.

The time line released by BPD says that LS and CR entered the alley just north of Smallwood at ~ 2:46 am. They claim the two of them were last seen by the camera at the North West Corner of "College Apartments" at 2:51 am.

That's only a FIVE minutes interval.

There would not have been time enough to stop by Zoe Camp's apt or to bee seen sitting on the steps - given the time intervals between the cameras. along the route.

So, if Lauren and Corey actual did try to get to Zoe's Room or if they were actually seen sitting on the steps... it would have HAD to have been AFTER they were last seen exiting north between those two buildings.

Correct?

So, if Zoe Camp insists that CR and LS was ringing her doorbell or knocking at 2:30 am... she's at least 20 minutes off in her recollection.

Maybe this map will give you a better indication of the police timeline.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/images/06/16/spierermap.pdf

According to it, 6 minutes elapsed between leaving Smallwood and entering the alley. This is enough time considering it's about a 60 second walk between the 2 complexes. Even with a struggling LS, there is enough time to try to buzz in at the main door of T&C, then move along, and in fact helps explain to some of us why it took 6 minutes to get from Smallwood to the alley in the first place.

Check out this Cached Link that I found.

In this article, Zoe is quoted as giving the time of 3:00 am instead of 2:30 am.

That time would not only be plausible... But it would put CR and LS on that (East) side of College Apartments at 3:00 and it would not then be too much time later - for them to be seen on the South east Corner Steps (under the clock) at 3:38 am... where LS was seen falling over and hitting her head.

Are you with me so far?

The author of that article typo'd the "after 3 a.m". It should read "Shortly before 3 a.m". Verified this via e-mail.
 
Chuz Life, the 2:48 time is entering the alley off of 10th, not 9th, after they had already rang ZC. *edit to add, supposedly* since we are indeed just taking LE's word for these items.
 
Chuz Life, look at it this way: In those 3 minutes--from 2:48 to 2:51 they only walked the length of the apt building.
 
Chuz Life, if I am reading this correctly, you have them going 318 feet in 6 minutes and 725 feet in 3 minutes. Is this correct?
 
I think he's a very plausible POI who hasn't been named publicly, he was there with JR.. Possibly won't be until there is something tying him to her death and he is not being sued because there is zero information from him, and no video, and the others are to easily accessible by their own admissions to being with her.

True, but Abby's point is still a good one because his name never even comes up. Why wouldn't they (family) want him to talk, take a police poly, etc.? I guess one possibility is: Maybe he did.

If it's really known he was there I can't see how he would escape scrutiny in the civil case

When they've implored others to come forth, why not him? Why no mention of his name? LE is easily explained because someone (reporter) would've had to ask them directly about him, putting his name into the narrative, and then reporting it. Expecting LE to offer it is questionable considering how little they've really shared with the public. But the family OTOH hasn't been shy about naming names.

With the apparent recent confirmations that he was there, it does seem odd he wouldn't be on the Spierer's radar enough to put his name into the equation. If nothing else then to put more pressure onto the group hoping to crack someone.

So yeah... I agree with Abby... It's odd....
 
I just meant I'm curious more than critical. It seems like there were already a lot of people trying to skew public opinion whether it was through MSM, anonymous comments or lawyers when Gatto's blog came along, and especially at the beginning of this case when there was hardly any information, it was really hard to know who was a legitimate 'insider' and whether they had any kind of agenda. I would really like to hear TG's perspective on the case and the POI now, but he hasn't responded.

(Maybe someone got to him too :p)

Someone could imply that he was also working for someone to purposely plant false info and invent/discredit/embellish witnesses. MOO
 
Chuz, Jupiter, On the timeline, is the LE reported phrase "questionable activity" in alley...and BDietl's wording that LS was "very much alive" when exiting? the alley..I think..each associated with a precise reported time? Thx
 
I think that it makes sense that CR could have been panicking or indecisive given Lauren's worsening condition. I think he may have been looking for someone who knew how to deal with an overdose.

Speculation.... I know.

So, who do you speculate that CR was looking for in this interval?
2:51 Alley slam, 3:30 MB calls JR
 
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