IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #31

[VeryVeritas]

Maybe he was looking to make LS ZC's problem just like MB wanted to make LS JR's problem. I think he knew she was in bad shape at this point and he was trying to get rid of her.

Then why didn't he just leave her at SW?

 

[Jupiter812]

Chuz, Jupiter, On the timeline, is the LE reported phrase "questionable activity" in alley...and BDietl's wording that LS was "very much alive" when exiting? the alley..I think..each associated with a precise reported time? Thx

The "questionable activity" refers to when they are "making their way" in the alley. When Qualters (LE) said this at a presser we here speculated that they were doing everything from kissing to doing drugs.

The comment I think you are referring to is "alive and well" and it refers to the point when no one answers the door at ZC's apt and CR starts carrying Lauren over his shoulders.

 

[Chuz Life]

This is my latest attempt to map the police released timeline, known camera locations, route, distances and even the walking speeds of Corey Rossman and Lauren Spierer on the night she went missing. Thanks again to Btown for your images and to BX2 for catching my earlier mistake on the map.

 

[Chuz Life]

(snipped to respond to this) As for JW, these are very astute observations. However, what you suggest is a crime of passion. And as you have pointed out he and his family are prone to irrational outbursts. So, suddenly he becomes rational, cool calculating and stealthy and conspires with others to commit premeditated murder on the person he loves and keep that a total secret. That seems more plausible to you than CR/MB/JR pact? What I could buy is JW pulling a surprise attack on CR or JR in a fit of rage. But do not see him offing his gf when she is already unconscious and seriously injured. These pieces do not fit together here.

Jesse's best act of revenge / payback would have been to verify that Lauren was present at 5N or in that vicinity with Corey, Beth or Rosenbaum (or all of them) and to call the police and ask for the police to check on her welfare WHILE she was with them.

I'm sure we all wish now that Jesse (or anyone else who actually gives a damn about Lauren) would have done that.

 

[Chuz Life]

Very curious observations. Yes, as it was unfolding I remember being so hungry for information that the Gatto news was gobbled up. There is also no question that various posters seemed to have agendas.

But i'm not quite sure if you are suggesting that CR supplied this information to Gatto himself? If so, it would seem like a risky move on his part as the amnesia story seemed to serve him well. But with respect to your specific examples doesn't the distortions of the "Mystery Man" not only deflect from CR but JR as well? I really do wonder how Gatto found the Bar Manager.
Why do you think the Bar Manager would insist and use such a specific time as 3:38 when it had to be off by pretty much exactly 1 hr?
Are you suggesting a possible conspiracy here to distort the facts?
Essentially obstruction of justice?

The statements by Zoe Camp and by the Unidentified "Bar Manager" are key at this point.

My illustration of the timeline (released by the police) leaves no chance that CR and LS ever stopped at those steps or to see Zoe Camp - Prior to 2:51 am.

They MAY have circled back - somehow - but that would make the Bar Manager the last witness to see Lauren alive (at 3:38 am) with no camera's or recordings to support her claims.

It's too late now... but BPD should have done more (IMO) to see if a person could have entered the alley while carrying or dragging another person (as claimed by the manager) - without being seen by those cameras.

 

[Chuz Life]

Chuz, Jupiter, On the timeline, is the LE reported phrase "questionable activity" in alley...and BDietl's wording that LS was "very much alive" when exiting? the alley..I think..each associated with a precise reported time? Thx

Those are good questions.

I've not delved too much into those things yet. I've been trying to nail down as much as I can of the events that led up to those events, myself
.

 

[VeryVeritas]

This is my latest attempt to map the police released timeline, known camera locations, route, distances and even the walking speeds of Corey Rossman and Lauren Spierer on the night she went missing. Thanks again to Btown for your images and to BX2 for catching my earlier mistake on the map.

I hope everyone knows I meant "Feet Per Minute" and not "Feet Per Second!"

It seems no matter how much time I take to slow down.... it's not enough.

I'm doing the best I can.

Click HERE for the corrected map.

Thanks Chuz, for applying the timelines to the photo.

@Abbey I'm curious what you have to say considering we had been over this timeline sequence many times and somehow we arrived at the conclusion that the Bar Manager witness was around 2:38 instead of 3:38, and similarly the falling over on the steps at 10th & College apts took place shortly before seeing CR carry LS slumped over his shoulder. But here I'm also again puzzled that couldn't have been going on at 2:38 if they were only leaving SW at 2:42.

The average speed as calculated by Chuz:

1 to SW = 150 fpm
SW to 4 = 129 fpm
4 to 5 = 85 fpm

The Trend is one of S L O W I N G down. It took longer and longer to get a shorter and shorter distance. Even if they were able to move at 150 fpm from SW to 10th & College before entering Alley at #4 that would only leave 1 minute. It doesn't seem possible they could knock on ZC's door, sit down hit head, and then get carried and seen all within 1 minute to arrive at #4 Considering LS's condition at SW, I can't see them moving faster than 150 fpm enroute to 10th & College, but it is possible.

What if CR put LS on his back and nearly ran on the way to 10th & College?
I figure this would be something like 300 fpm, which would give them a little over 3 minutes to spend at 10th & College... still seems really tight.

So if they couldn't have been at 10th & College apts knocking on ZC's door sitting down hitting head and LS being carried by CR at any time before 2:51, then what time was it when they were there?

 

[VeryVeritas]

This is my latest attempt to map the , known camera locations, route, distances and even the walking speeds of Corey Rossman and Lauren Spierer on the night she went missing. Thanks again to Btown for your images and to BX2 for catching my earlier mistake on the map.

Why doesn't the BPD timeline include the visit to 10th & College, knocking on ZC's door and fall on the steps? Where is ZC's apt on the maps? Given the speeds and known timeline checkpoints it seems there are only 3 possibilities:

1) They moved very quickly from SW possibly with CR carrying LS to 10th & College. Within 3 minutes knocked on ZC's door, sat down slammed head, CR picks her back up and continues down the alley. Bar Manager sees all of this inside of that 3 minute window?

2) The return to 10th & College happened at a later time (3:38 as originally reported). Because of the camera positions seems there are 2 possible ways that could have happened. From the gravel lot area there is an entrance correct? CR knew how to get into this building / garage. The maps do not show any internal cameras at 10th & College so that looks possible. Alternatively coming from 5N to College then down on the sidewalk to 10th & College. We have discussed several times how the cameras at 10th & College are pointed close to the building and not to the street. Since I don't know where ZC's apt specifically is, not sure if would be possible to be missed by cameras this way. But then of course if this did occur at 3:38 that throws everything that MB and JR said up in the air. It doesn't make sense however that if this did happen at 3:38 that neither CR or LS would avoid all other cameras subsequently. So, this does not seem likely to me at all.

3) The Bar Manager witness perhaps saw someone else? Made it up?
At this point it seems a more likely option than #2.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

Looks like CS does read these threads...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...17329978.80391.225047564191647&type=1&theater

 

[Jacobite]

The detectives tried to make the timeline clear in the loHud video. The visit to ZC and the mystery witness are real. Some should watch the video. So, we can all be on the same page. Then, we can move on.


We must forget the rumors for a moment and follow the detectives narrative otherwise this case is confusing.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

Why doesn't the BPD timeline include the visit to 10th & College, knocking on ZC's door and fall on the steps? Where is ZC's apt on the maps? Given the speeds and known timeline checkpoints it seems there are only 3 possibilities:

1) They moved very quickly from SW possibly with CR carrying LS to 10th & College. Within 3 minutes knocked on ZC's door, sat down slammed head, CR picks her back up and continues down the alley. Bar Manager sees all of this inside of that 3 minute window?

2) The return to 10th & College happened at a later time (3:38 as originally reported). Because of the camera positions seems there are 2 possible ways that could have happened. From the gravel lot area there is an entrance correct? CR knew how to get into this building / garage. The maps do not show any internal cameras at 10th & College so that looks possible. Alternatively coming from 5N to College then down on the sidewalk to 10th & College. We have discussed several times how the cameras at 10th & College are pointed close to the building and not to the street. Since I don't know where ZC's apt specifically is, not sure if would be possible to be missed by cameras this way. But then of course if this did occur at 3:38 that throws everything that MB and JR said up in the air. It doesn't make sense however that if this did happen at 3:38 that neither CR or LS would avoid all other cameras subsequently. So, this does not seem likely to me at all.

3) The Bar Manager witness perhaps saw someone else? Made it up?
At this point it seems a more likely option than #2.

I've never been comfortable with how the bar manager story was left. IIRC, the description of her account made is seem like she was adamant about the time and the description of the person she saw carrying LS. Why? And why was she so quickly dismissed? She blows the timeline, if she's right but if she's even only half right i.e. right about the description but wrong about the time then dismissing her entire story is a major problem. Then again, if it's a total fabrication then there must be a motive behind her story. I'm not sure what the truth is but I've never liked the implications of either answer.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

The detectives tried to make the timeline clear in the loHud video. The visit to ZC and the mystery witness are real. Some should watch the video. So, we can all be on the same page. Then, we can move on.


We must forget the rumors for a moment and follow the detectives narrative otherwise this case is confusing.

Are you talking about the video where the PI's go over the timeline? I want to make sure I've seen the video you're talking about.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

I've been wondering lately, and I want some opinions, about the possibility of the guys basically dumping her off somewhere just to get her off there hands. Not necessarily (but not excluding the possibility either) because they thought she had died, just...the way some guys have been known to do passed out girls; leave them in a front yard or something like that. For example, they carry her out to the alley and just prop her up against the wall or something, thinking that she's out of their hair and she'll come around (or not I guess) and either she'll think or it will appear that she was just making her way home and passed out. Regardless of what they thought her condition was, they may have expected her to either be found or make her way home later, lets say she comes around and in confusion is stumbling around and doesn't know what happened or where her things are or even where she is. Could she then have possibly made her way off all cameras to an encounter with a even much lower life form than the guys that had just left her there? Is that even a possibility? I'm still hanging up on the Hispanic guy Jacobite' friend saw around Lauren in the bar that night and that's where this line of thinking came from.

 

[doubtingthomas]

In the loHud video detectives talk about CR carring LS down some steps. I am trying to picture where these steps are. I have been looking at the pictures from Btown. Can someone point out where these steps are? Thanks

 

[imkeylime]

I've been wondering lately, and I want some opinions, about the possibility of the guys basically dumping her off somewhere just to get her off there hands. Not necessarily (but not excluding the possibility either) because they thought she had died, just...the way some guys have been known to do passed out girls; leave them in a front yard or something like that. For example, they carry her out to the alley and just prop her up against the wall or something, thinking that she's out of their hair and she'll come around (or not I guess) and either she'll think or it will appear that she was just making her way home and passed out. Regardless of what they thought her condition was, they may have expected her to either be found or make her way home later, lets say she comes around and in confusion is stumbling around and doesn't know what happened or where her things are or even where she is. Could she then have possibly made her way off all cameras to an encounter with a even much lower life form than the guys that had just left her there? Is that even a possibility? I'm still hanging up on the Hispanic guy Jacobite' friend saw around Lauren in the bar that night and that's where this line of thinking came from.

IMO, it's possible ... but why would they? Could she have been interrupting something that was going on at JR's? We know now that DB was there. Could there have been something else going on, i.e., a more private party or a major drug deal? Or could they have been callous enough to not want her to OD on their turf?

I've personally known of someone who left an intoxicated young woman on a lawn. Also, I'm sure some of you are also following the Daisy Coleman case in Maryville. Based on the alleged circumstances, it's amazing that girl didn't freeze to death. So such callousness happens, sadly.

Let's try to reconcile your possibility with the phone calls from JR's. JR apparently knew she had no phone and it would have been obvious she had no shoes. JR and company would have been dropping a phone-less, shoe-less petite young woman off because he (and MB) couldn't be bothered with her. IMO, he didn't walk her home because she couldn't walk. He may have been afraid to be seen carrying her. Then again, you may be on to something.

The other wild shot is that they put her outside and tried to reach JW (maybe the second call?). ???

 

[Chuz Life]

(a bunch of good stuff snipped to answer this question) So if they couldn't have been at 10th & College apts knocking on ZC's door sitting down hitting head and LS being carried by CR at any time before 2:51, then what time was it when they were there?

I will have to provide the links later because I need to run some errands.... but I've found more than one news report that says Zoe claimed they knocked or rang the door bell just after 3:00 am.

Given the slowing pace and the time the walk would have taken...

It would have been plausible for Lauren and Corey or ??? to be seen at the steps at 3:38 am (by the Bar Manager.)

However, I can't find anything any-WHERE that substantiates Zoe Camp's claims.

WHO were her other (three) room-mates and what were their recollections of that night?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Here's the article VV: LINK: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...531/NEWS/305310113/+&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

"Indiana University student Zoe Camp saw Lauren Spierer swallowing shots at a party hours before she disappeared, but remains haunted by another encounter with the missing coed she slept through.

Shortly after 3 a.m. June 3, 2011, a drunken Spierer - who'd just fallen on her face and smacked her head on concrete - and her companion Corey Rossman rang the doorbell to Camp's apartment, where she and her three roommates were asleep.

Since no one answered, the two left, with Rossman slinging Spierer over his shoulders as he carried her down the steps. An hour later, she vanished. ..."

 

[Dixie811]

Chuz Life, I just want to say I am impressed by your dedication and attention to detail in Lauren's case. Thank you! Your enthusiasm is what cases like Lauren's need!

 

[Chuz Life]

Chuz Life, I just want to say I am impressed by your dedication and attention to detail in Lauren's case. Thank you! Your enthusiasm is what cases like Lauren's need!

I credit the Marine Corps with the dedication and the attention to detail thing... I can't take credit for that.

As for my enthusiasm? I'm tired and I don't feel enthusiastic.

I think there is enough evidence in this case for a grand jury to indict some people and I'm more driven by a need to get answers to my questions than anything else.

I do appreciate your comments though.

Thanks for all that you do too.

 

[imkeylime]

I credit the Marine Corps with the dedication and the attention to detail thing... I can't take credit for that.

As for my enthusiasm? I'm tired and I don't feel enthusiastic.

I think there is enough evidence in this case for a grand jury to indict some people and I'm more driven by a need to get answers to my questions than anything else.

I do appreciate your comments though.

Thanks for all that you do too.

I'm also thankful for your direction sense (and that of all the other mapsters here), since I don't have one!

Re: grand jury. IDK exactly what it takes to get that far. I'm going to check on the status of that in another case I follow and will report back if it's encouraging news.

 

[Chuz Life]

I'm also thankful for your direction sense (and that of all the other mapsters here), since I don't have one!

Re: grand jury. IDK exactly what it takes to get that far. I'm going to check on the status of that in another case I follow and will report back if it's encouraging news.

Lawyers often say that a "Grand Jury could indict a Ham Sandwich."

There is a lot more to this case than that.