IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

[holly18]

either way, it's slightly misleading and actually David Rohn last saw her after they went up to JR's and he's seen on video entering SW at 12:something, so he last saw her 4 hours past not "last few" meaning 3.

Most of us realize there's something hinky with the timeline but we don't know what, despite the very detailed camera schematics, diagrams of the paths they took cross referenced with timelines, etc.

Now when we follow cases like this in the UK, for example, where their cameras are very organized, govt. operated, people get paid on a regular basis just to service them, etc, then they are excellent for solving crimes.
Places here like convenience stores, for example, have a high incidence of robbery so you just know those cameras are rolling, and have been effective.

But depending on apartment complexes cameras to be working properly?
Sometimes, maybe, most of the time, it's a crapshoot, a scare tactic.

And the ones at intersections--are they there to monitor sidewalk traffic, or to record traffic?
Are they there for our safety or for traffic monitoring purposes? Just don't see those intersection cameras as being that good of a help.
We've seen in different cases that LE has withheld camera info whenever they feel they should.

I completely agree with everything you said.
I think what drives me craziest about something being hinky with the timeline is that it could literally be anything. AFAIK, DR is the only one on tape leaving and returning to his apartment, and the spierers seem to feel like he's been forthcoming.

Everything else is up in the air. We're relying on POIs to build the rest of the timeline, and a little information from LE/PIs. I keep thinking if we just knew aspect for sure everything else would fall into place. There are way too many questions, one of the things I'm most curious about is DB. Has he been checked out? There were rumors of guests, who else was there??

Also re: cameras, we already know there's been one hitch with them (the white truck, wasn't there something about it showing up twice due to a technical problem?).. How can it even be determined if the cameras have the right time stamp?

The questions drive me crazy, and I'm an outsider. I can't imagine how beyond hard it is for the Spierers and Lauren's friends.

 

[AbbeyR]

http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...ers-experts-say?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|News

Five of those who've been involved in the investigation — Jesse Wolff, Lauren's boyfriend; and friends Corey Rossman, Mike Beth, Jay Rosenbaum and David Rohn, who all saw her during the last few hours before she disappeared — have retained lawyers.

Is this a misprint? Wasn't aware JW had seen LS that night.

In this sentence, "who all saw her during the last few hours before she disappeared" refers to those listed after the semicolon. "Have retained lawyers" refers to "five of those who've been involved in the investigation" i.e. all listed after the em dash (includes JW)

 

[AbbeyR]

Its also weird to me that MB described her condition so differently than JR and than what was on tape. I get him leaving that out the first time he spoke, but now that JR has said Lauren was visibly out of it and injured, why wouldn't MB mention something about it in one of his newer statements? Even something simple like "she seemed out of it, I don't know her very well so I brought her over to JR's because I thought he knew her better and I had to work on my paper" would make more sense than saying she "wanted to party"

In the lawsuit docs, MB's story appears to have totally changed from those early statements. It describes how he was out (not at home writing a paper), thought there was a burglary, came in and found Lauren in a "disoriented and incapacitated" condition and was "worried about her well being and safety" so took her to JR's.

VV, this is also where the change about who made the phone calls comes in. The document states that MB witnessed JR make the phone calls looking for help for Lauren which contradicts JR's earlier claim that Lauren made those calls.

Bessie attached the document here, in case anyone's looking for it: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10160222&postcount=186"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 * Media Links*[/ame]

 

[holly18]

In the lawsuit docs, MB's story appears to have totally changed from those early statements. It describes how he was out (not at home writing a paper), thought there was a burglary, came in and found Lauren in a "disoriented and incapacitated" condition and was "worried about her well being and safety" so took her to JR's.

VV, this is also where the change about who made the phone calls comes in. The document states that MB witnessed JR make the phone calls looking for help for Lauren which contradicts JR's earlier claim that Lauren made those calls.

Bessie attached the document here, in case anyone's looking for it: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 * Media Links*

I sort of think MB is the key to this. He's changed his story significantly multiple times, IMO thats for one of two reasons. 1) he was involved, told an initial story before those who were also involved had had a chance to gage how much LE knew, then came up with another 'more believable' version or 2) he initially said what he was told to say, and then was given a more updated version to tell.

IMO his first story cannot be true. We know Lauren wasn't in good shape, and MB has changed pretty much everything about what he first said. He couldn't have seen Lauren the way he first described, so IMO he either didn't see her at all, and was told to say he did, or he saw her and either decided to give a different version, or was told to

 

[sammi89]

In the lawsuit docs, MB's story appears to have totally changed from those early statements. It describes how he was out (not at home writing a paper), thought there was a burglary, came in and found Lauren in a "disoriented and incapacitated" condition and was "worried about her well being and safety" so took her to JR's.

If he was so worried about her well-being and safety, why is he taking her to JR's and NOT either calling her a cab or taking her to the hospital? JR's statements confirmed she had some kind of head injury going on. I have a feeling that is where some of MB's concern stemmed from.

It just doesn't make sense that he waltzes her over to JR's, watches them make phone calls to find her a ride, and then they decide that a walking test should do the trick. In both instances, they have noted good reason to do the opposite of what they ended up doing ("disoriented and incapacitated" + bruising of the face). I still don't get why HT wasn't one of those calls, either. Even if she couldn't pick LS up, if they were so concerned, wouldn't he want to call/text her to give her a heads up that LS was on her way and might need assistance?

 

[holly18]

If he was so worried about her well-being and safety, why is he taking her to JR's and NOT either calling her a cab or taking her to the hospital? JR's statements confirmed she had some kind of head injury going on. I have a feeling that is where some of MB's concern stemmed from.

It just doesn't make sense that he waltzes her over to JR's, watches them make phone calls to find her a ride, and then they decide that a walking test should do the trick. In both instances, they have noted good reason to do the opposite of what they ended up doing ("disoriented and incapacitated" + bruising of the face). I still don't get why HT wasn't one of those calls, either. Even if she couldn't pick LS up, if they were so concerned, wouldn't he want to call/text her to give her a heads up that LS was on her way and might need assistance?

BBM
Especially if Lauren didn't have her keys, wouldn't it have made sense for them to call HT to ask if she could go downstairs in a few minutes and meet Lauren?

 

[imkeylime]

Snipped by me for space.... 4) in my theory LS is still alive when she leaves JRs but once her angry, jilted, embarrassed boyfriend of three years finds her, on her way to his place, sees the condition she's in, is aware of what may or may not have taken place between her and CR, he snaps, they fight. She dies.

5) how far away does he live? Are there cameras between JRs and JWs?

Did he call his father to come before he knew she was missing and reported it to police?...

Let me preface this by saying that I do find JW's behavior kind of strange and am not willing to give him a free pass, although I distrust the other POIs much more. I agree that JW could have heard what happened at SW and may have felt angry, jilted, and embarrassed, as you note. But he may have also decided to do nothing at all, which is now eating him alive.

That said, maybe JW knows something dire did go down but can't or won't reveal what, for whatever reason. That would also be very unfair to LS and the Spierers.

 

[sammi89]

BBM
Especially if Lauren didn't have her keys, wouldn't it have made sense for them to call HT to ask if she could go downstairs in a few minutes and meet Lauren?

Yeah, she dropped/lost quite a few things that night.... I'm still amazed that they found as much as they did and that her stuff wasn't stolen, especially the phone. I just can't imagine 5N POIs noting the missing keys, phone, shoes, intoxication, and bruised face and then doing what they did do - taking her over to JR's, spend a decent amount of time calling people/performing walking tests - but not just walk her home themselves or, if they really didn't want to, just calling a cab.

I wonder if the surveillance tapes caught what was happening when her stuff was dropped in the alley? Is that maybe when things got bad? I understand that it was summer and it was getting late at that point, but I think it's interesting that clearly people were around at that time (AA and friend, other witnesses) and no one remembers seeing her on her way home, although there are witnesses + video of her on her way to 5N.

IU student AJ Amin, 19, told The Journal News on Friday that he saw a small purple pouch with a gold key shortly before 3 a.m. that morning on the sidewalk near that building. He said he left it there and that a friend of his put it on a railing when he saw it there a few hours later.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6903130&postcount=355"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #17[/ame]

quoted again by mrsu: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6656723&postcount=55"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #2[/ame]

(sorry - links to lohud article aren't working - the above is the best I can do for links!)

 

[holly18]

Yeah, she dropped/lost quite a few things that night.... I'm still amazed that they found as much as they did and that her stuff wasn't stolen, especially the phone. I just can't imagine 5N POIs noting the missing keys, phone, shoes, intoxication, and bruised face and then doing what they did do - taking her over to JR's, spend a decent amount of time calling people/performing walking tests - but not just walk her home themselves or, if they really didn't want to, just calling a cab.

I wonder if the surveillance tapes caught what was happening when her stuff was dropped in the alley? Is that maybe when things got bad? I understand that it was summer and it was getting late at that point, but I think it's interesting that clearly people were around at that time (AA and friend, other witnesses) and no one remembers seeing her on her way home, although there are witnesses + video of her on her way to 5N.


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #17

quoted again by mrsu: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #2

(sorry - links to lohud article aren't working - the above is the best I can do for links!)

The thing that always seems undeniably off to me is JR's version of the story where Lauren leaves, without her key or phone, and he hasn't called HT or another roommate. How could she get into smallwood? Was he just guessing that this girl who needed a 'walking test' would chill outside, alone and phoneless until someone else came back to smallwood and let her in? He specifically noted what she had with her, and it wasn't her keys... It doesn't make sense to me

also lohud seems to be charging for most Lauren stories, so unfortunately I'm guessing that quotes on here is as close as we're going to get to quoting their articles

 

[Dixie811]

BBM
Especially if Lauren didn't have her keys, wouldn't it have made sense for them to call HT to ask if she could go downstairs in a few minutes and meet Lauren?

Additionally,

Supposedly HT was very close friends with JR. And Lauren began hanging out/partying with these young men via HT's close friendship with JR.

Just doesn't make sense to me why JR wouldn't have called or texted HT during any of this if he was planning to send Lauren home.

 

[VeryVeritas]

If he was so worried about her well-being and safety, why is he taking her to JR's and NOT either calling her a cab or taking her to the hospital? JR's statements confirmed she had some kind of head injury going on. I have a feeling that is where some of MB's concern stemmed from.

It just doesn't make sense that he waltzes her over to JR's, watches them make phone calls to find her a ride, and then they decide that a walking test should do the trick. In both instances, they have noted good reason to do the opposite of what they ended up doing ("disoriented and incapacitated" + bruising of the face). I still don't get why HT wasn't one of those calls, either. Even if she couldn't pick LS up, if they were so concerned, wouldn't he want to call/text her to give her a heads up that LS was on her way and might need assistance?

If he was so concerned instead of calling JR at 3:30 and walking her over and then hanging out for around 45 minutes, why didn't he just walk her home (it was 2 whole blocks!)? In the first story I recall reported by his "lawyer" it was said that LS didn't want to stay at his place and wanted to "party". So the studying goes out the window... maybe MB is the one that wanted to party.

Yet I agree, her condition has always caused me to think she never left 5N alive, if she even made it there alive. It makes a lot more sense that he saw her in bad shape and brought her to JR's and they spent some time trying to revive her and it failed. Alternatively, I could see the party continuing with a very f'd up LS, turns to rape and then she expires. The longer she remains missing, it's adding weight to the rape scenario for me.

I want to know if MB saw her Keycard and Fake ID. I also want to know where JR says she had these 2 things. If she could clutch onto these 2 items, why couldn't she just keep hold of her wallet?

 

[VeryVeritas]

The thing that always seems undeniably off to me is JR's version of the story where Lauren leaves, without her key or phone, and he hasn't called HT or another roommate. How could she get into smallwood? Was he just guessing that this girl who needed a 'walking test' would chill outside, alone and phoneless until someone else came back to smallwood and let her in? He specifically noted what she had with her, and it wasn't her keys... It doesn't make sense to me

also lohud seems to be charging for most Lauren stories, so unfortunately I'm guessing that quotes on here is as close as we're going to get to quoting their articles

It's my understanding that JR said LS had her SW keycard (which would get her into the building) but not her apt. I don't understand how she had that and her fake ID as he said. I could see only 2 scenarios that make sense. 1) CR had these items. One way to know would be to watch the SW video where CR and LS enter SW. LS was falling down... so who used the keycard? Was it CR? If CR used the Keycard at SW, it seems to me he very well would have held on to it. The fake ID might have went along with it. 2) LS had these items more closely on her person, like a pocket or bra. Then they would likely only turn up if someone searched her or if her clothing were removed.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Let me preface this by saying that I do find JW's behavior kind of strange and am not willing to give him a free pass, although I distrust the other POIs much more. I agree that JW could have heard what happened at SW and may have felt angry, jilted, and embarrassed, as you note. But he may have also decided to do nothing at all, which is now eating him alive.

That said, maybe JW knows something dire did go down but can't or won't reveal what, for whatever reason. That would also be very unfair to LS and the Spierers.

Someone knows where LS is, 1, 2 or more people.
There is no reason to keep her location a secret any longer, unless there was rape or murder.

 

[VeryVeritas]

I agree for the most part, but not all scenarios are equal, depending on the possibilities of being caught on video.

I.e., Some scenarios can be ruled out due to cameras. For ex. We know LE has evidence of when DR left and returned to Smallwood because he was on camera, which is likely the case for anyone at Smallwood. From what I understand from the posts about the cameras from Btown and a few snippets from LE, the same is likely true for 10th and College. We also know, for example, that the 'mystery man' encounter didn't happen at 3:38 because LE said so on the basis of reviewing surveillance video from that location.

I'm not sure how to factor the chances of being caught on camera comparing say, the route that the guys at 5 N would have to take leaving with Lauren, vs. the route that Lauren would have to take to get from JR's to JW's (or vice versa)

I know some people here have done some excellent work documenting cameras and trying to figure this out, so others may have a better idea (I'm bad at maps! Plus, it's hard to know about the quality and scope of the cameras) I at least hope LE has a better idea, since they said they had hundreds of hours of video to review. I think it's at least possible that LE does have relevant video surveillance as well - for example, if they had identified a car belonging to a POI early Friday morning at an intersection, this may be enough evidence for a search warrant, and to keep someone the focus of an investigation, but it wouldn't be enough for an arrest.

JR's story always struck me as a crafted version of events that were both true and untrue, a skilled liar. One thing that I've been thinking about came up with this recent finger pointing at JW. It's that unlikely path that JR says she took from his place. If she were going back to SW and were capable of doing so, she most likely would go back the way she came. But by saying she went the way that she did, perhaps JR wasn't just making a mistake, perhaps it was a calculated hint towards JW. I don't think LS left 5N alive, so I certainly don't think she was walking to JW's. But maybe that's a door JR purposefully left open.

 

[VeryVeritas]

http://www.lohud.com/article/201106...ers-experts-say?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|News

Five of those who've been involved in the investigation — Jesse Wolff, Lauren's boyfriend; and friends Corey Rossman, Mike Beth, Jay Rosenbaum and David Rohn, who all saw her during the last few hours before she disappeared — have retained lawyers.

Is this a misprint? Wasn't aware JW had seen LS that night. Also have a question about JW texting. Do we know when JW sent that last text to LS because they were suppose to be getting together after the game. If he had sent a text at 3:00, after claiming he went to be bed at 2:30, then he would still be awake at 3. And if awake at 3, why not 3:30 or 4. He also sent a text to her that morning which is when the employee replied she left her phone there. So if employee is texting back, did they happen to read any of the text and know when last text was sent by JW. Might be a good reason why he went to pick up the phone.

JW sent a text at 3:00am?

 

[VeryVeritas]

In the lawsuit docs, MB's story appears to have totally changed from those early statements. It describes how he was out (not at home writing a paper), thought there was a burglary, came in and found Lauren in a "disoriented and incapacitated" condition and was "worried about her well being and safety" so took her to JR's.

VV, this is also where the change about who made the phone calls comes in. The document states that MB witnessed JR make the phone calls looking for help for Lauren which contradicts JR's earlier claim that Lauren made those calls.

Bessie attached the document here, in case anyone's looking for it: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 * Media Links*

We have suspected for a long time that JR made those calls. MB confirms it, proving JR to be a liar.

It's just not rational to think that if she couldn't even use a phone that these people would let her walk out of there. (as if she could)

 

[VeryVeritas]

I sort of think MB is the key to this. He's changed his story significantly multiple times, IMO thats for one of two reasons. 1) he was involved, told an initial story before those who were also involved had had a chance to gage how much LE knew, then came up with another 'more believable' version or 2) he initially said what he was told to say, and then was given a more updated version to tell.

IMO his first story cannot be true. We know Lauren wasn't in good shape, and MB has changed pretty much everything about what he first said. He couldn't have seen Lauren the way he first described, so IMO he either didn't see her at all, and was told to say he did, or he saw her and either decided to give a different version, or was told to

I agree. It's incomprehensible that the Judge excused him from civil culpability considering he is revealing that he was directly involved.

 

[doubtingthomas]

JW sent a text at 3:00am?

Not aware that he sent a text. Only trying to point out that the employee at Kilroy'w who text JW back about LS phone being there may have seen the text JW was sending earlier. Was wondering IF there was a text after 2:30 when JW said he went to bed. The employee could be the only person to know this since JW went to pick up the phone and could have deleted all text. Don't know if LE requested seeing all text from the phone company. Just asking the question.

 

[AbbeyR]

Did JW actually go and pick up the phone? Was this ever actually stated anywhere? IIRC, Kilroy's called him to tell him to tell his friend to pick up her phone, but didn't LE get the phone? They said they had it in their possession... (Sorry I don't have time to look this up right now, does anyone remember?)

 

[imkeylime]

Someone knows where LS is, 1, 2 or more people.
There is no reason to keep her location a secret any longer, unless there was rape or murder.

I see your point, but playing devil's advocate: Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I still think it's possible a POI might have freaked out if she died doing drugs he/she provided. Behind my thinking is the fact that none of them were sober and may have done the same drugs, if drugs were in fact involved. Even MB, who initially claimed he was sober, apparently was drinking that night.

I also think that JR's comment about her doing klonopin with DR is interesting, as we've discussed before. IMO, he seems to be deflecting ...

Your post makes me think, though ... maybe more than one person knows what happened to LS but only one knows her final resting place.