IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #32

[doubtingthomas]

Here is something I have wondered about. MB says when he got home CR pukes and he puts him to bed. He then calls JR to take LS over there because JR knows her better. So when he has JR on the phone why not ask him to come get her. His roommate has just thrown up and he needs to keep watch on him. So he abandoned his roommate, takes LS to JR's and stays and makes phone calls. Doesn't make sense to me. Am I missing something?

 

[sammi89]

I would be very interested to know if his own apt (which would have her DNA) was searched for any sign of her clothes she wore that night. Whether his phone, facebook, iPod apps were investigated as a POI closest to her with motive? I would search the areas between 5N and JW's place thoroughly.

http://ww.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/30/news.qp-2301833.sto

Bloomington police entered boyfriend Jesse Wolff’s house in the 600 block of East Ninth Street around 5 p.m., along with the shared apartment of acquaintances Corey Rossman and Mike Beth at their building on 11th and Morton streets.

It is unclear whether police entered Jason “Jay” Rosenbaum’s apartment two doors down. Rosenbaum has reported he was the last person to see Spierer in the early morning hours she went missing June 3.

It was searched. They made a big deal about what she was wearing that night and released the picture of what she was wearing, so I think they would have had that in mind during their search.

 

[holly18]

The bolded statement is prefaced by "I think and I believe", I then state my opinion which is based on all the events leading up to and after she disappeared, and their backgrounds as a whole combined with my own experiences. I personally believe that it is both possible and probable that they did know each other and LS well enough to have a vested interest to cover for each other's involvement in her disappearance.

That belief and opinion of mine, is combined with who had/has the motive, means, left town as soon as they could pack and refused to take a poly? I have more trouble believing in a convoluted conspiracy that requires 3-5 individual men who aren't really that "close" to lie for one another and keep silent this long.

In most cases I've studied where there is absolutely no trace, no evidence, no body...only one person knows the truth. Definitely not 3 or 4.

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I just want to apologize, and then we can get back to discussing the case. I read through your post way too quickly, and since michigan has been referenced a lot lately I thought you were referring to facts. It was a stupid mistake, and I'm sorry if I offended you, it was not at all my intention, and after rereading your post you're certainly correct, it was my mistake.

Apparently my reading comprehension plummets with lack of sleep. fftobed:

 

[Ixchel13]

06-21-2011, 08:19 AM
elmomom elmomom is offline
I may lean, but I sit on a fence Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NYC transplant to rural PA
Posts: 2,343

About the watch, or bracelet - I am pretty sure I remember that during the early searches, people were being specifically asked to cover the ground inch by inch looking for jewelry- which leads me to believe that they haven't recovered the object from her wrist.

About the Lie detector result - we were told that one POI had passed. I have a strong feeling it is JR- but we have never been told who that person was. Now that is strange, because all these kids are "lawyered up" and usually the lawyer for the one who passed would be getting that info about his client out there in the public. It could be that that POI or his family is being extremely reticent to be mentioned at all in the press, but I don't think so. I think it is possible that LE does not want the rest of the POI's to know who it is so they have requested that the POI and his lawyer refrain from making their IDs public.

The reason I believe that it may be JR who passed is that if it were, then the primary suspect would have a good idea that he is indeed the primary suspect. I don't think it would matter if any of the others passed, and then we would have been told who it was.

I believe there really are only a few possibilities here - JR or JW, alone, or together, or either one with another unnamed associated POI. Either that, or a stranger.

Honestly, I have such a hard time believing that any of these kids did anything violent. And to think that unsophisticated kids like this could get their ***** together enough to dispose of a body, to not be seen on NUMEROUS surveillance cameras, and for that body to be so well hidden that no one has discovered it.... it all sounds so difficult to imagine.

But I do believe that at the very least, JW knows something or was involved, if it wasn't a stranger abduction. I think, given that JR and JW are buddies, we would have seen fireworks between them if JW believed that JR had something to do with this and was not involved himself. (like the stroy about his confrontation with CR)

As far as a stranger goes, my thinking is that LS could have collapsed and passed out, and it would have been easy pickings to scoop her up off the street. And not even look guilty doing so.

And that 3:38 Bar Manager eyewitness testimony makes me very uncomfortable since it doesn't fit the nice little time line package we have been given.
Thanks

snipped by me==here's a post from here from the very beginning from elmomom. So, we really aren't saying anything that hasn't been said from the start.

 

[holly18]

Here is something I have wondered about. MB says when he got home CR pukes and he puts him to bed. He then calls JR to take LS over there because JR knows her better. So when he has JR on the phone why not ask him to come get her. His roommate has just thrown up and he needs to keep watch on him. So he abandoned his roommate, takes LS to JR's and stays and makes phone calls. Doesn't make sense to me. Am I missing something?

I hadn't thought about that before, I agree it is strange

 

[Mahouston69]

I just want to apologize, and then we can get back to discussing the case. I read through your post way too quickly, and since michigan has been referenced a lot lately I thought you were referring to facts. It was a stupid mistake, and I'm sorry if I offended you, it was not at all my intention, and after rereading your post you're certainly correct, it was my mistake.

Apparently my reading comprehension plummets with lack of sleep. fftobed:

No worries, no offense. Been there, done that! illowfight2:

 

[holly18]

06-21-2011, 08:19 AM
elmomom elmomom is offline
I may lean, but I sit on a fence Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NYC transplant to rural PA
Posts: 2,343

About the watch, or bracelet - I am pretty sure I remember that during the early searches, people were being specifically asked to cover the ground inch by inch looking for jewelry- which leads me to believe that they haven't recovered the object from her wrist.

About the Lie detector result - we were told that one POI had passed. I have a strong feeling it is JR- but we have never been told who that person was. Now that is strange, because all these kids are "lawyered up" and usually the lawyer for the one who passed would be getting that info about his client out there in the public. It could be that that POI or his family is being extremely reticent to be mentioned at all in the press, but I don't think so. I think it is possible that LE does not want the rest of the POI's to know who it is so they have requested that the POI and his lawyer refrain from making their IDs public.

The reason I believe that it may be JR who passed is that if it were, then the primary suspect would have a good idea that he is indeed the primary suspect. I don't think it would matter if any of the others passed, and then we would have been told who it was.

I believe there really are only a few possibilities here - JR or JW, alone, or together, or either one with another unnamed associated POI. Either that, or a stranger.

Honestly, I have such a hard time believing that any of these kids did anything violent. And to think that unsophisticated kids like this could get their ***** together enough to dispose of a body, to not be seen on NUMEROUS surveillance cameras, and for that body to be so well hidden that no one has discovered it.... it all sounds so difficult to imagine.

But I do believe that at the very least, JW knows something or was involved, if it wasn't a stranger abduction. I think, given that JR and JW are buddies, we would have seen fireworks between them if JW believed that JR had something to do with this and was not involved himself. (like the stroy about his confrontation with CR)

As far as a stranger goes, my thinking is that LS could have collapsed and passed out, and it would have been easy pickings to scoop her up off the street. And not even look guilty doing so.

And that 3:38 Bar Manager eyewitness testimony makes me very uncomfortable since it doesn't fit the nice little time line package we have been given.
Thanks

snipped by me==here's a post from here from the very beginning from elmomom. So, we really aren't saying anything that hasn't been said from the start.

BBM, I do remember JR's lawyer mentioning a lie detector test that he'd taken privately and (I believe?) the lawyer said had been given to LE, IDK if thats the one the search team was told about, but it could well be

 

[VeryVeritas]

yes, it's speculation. If I did have proof I'd be running down to the Bloomington PD and letting them know right away.

And once again, I am not trying to change your opinions! Keep them, have them, share them, link them! When you defend a POI, be prepared for others to not agree with you! When you disagree with someone who is sleuthing a POI, be prepared for them to disagree back. I said don't take it personally if I wonder why you are defending a POI. I mean, it's your valued opinion.
But, as Very Veritas wondered, why is Jesse a POI in the first place? I guess that's the question. It's just that LE operates in a different way then we do. They have profiling, and then there's buzz words, and then there's behaviorism. i.e.--

Profiling--always look at the bf first

Buzz words- did JW make the mistake of using buzz words that they look out for when questioning a suspect?

Behaviorism-- did he act a certain way that usually causes suspicion? Did he first tell the Spierers that everyone should take polys and then run right home
without a how do ya do? And then, there's the whole gamut of texts on Lauren's phone. Was he angry in those texts? We don't know. Something, something made LE name him a POI. We just don't know, that's why we speculate. But! dollars to donuts it's not because in the beginning, they were naming people POIs but then just forgot to unnamed them.
No, these same people are still POIs. Why does that bother people?

[Puzzledly] Uh... I'm not here to defend anyone. Like most WS'rs here I'm bothered by some facts:
1) A petite young woman named Lauren Spierer vanished
2) She was last seen on camera by eye witnesses in seriously bad shape in the company of CR
3) The last person to CLAIM to see her (alive?) was JR
4) CR lives with MB in the same building as JR. These guys all know each other. CR/MB and JR have all given contradicting versions of events.

Poking holes in theories is not defending anyone. The prevailing theories implicating CR/MB/JR came about by the same fact analysis and deductive method - in that case the theory got more and more solid. Obviously the Spierer's reached the same conclusion thus the Civil Suit which began against all 3.

It seems to me that if LE had any solid link between JR and JW involving LS that night things would be moving differently. Just like you don't have anything to bring to LE, it appears that LE has nothing for the Prosecutor.

I think everyone would agree on the profiling... sure the most likely person to commit foul play is the significant other. But there isn't one single public FACT that implicates JW, not ONE! There is no person that claims to have seen him that night around 5N. There are no "known" calls or texts that point to him. At the same time if he did make incriminating texts and calls that night, it would make no sense that he would stage things later in the day. Note that the Spierer's also aren't suing JW.

The trouble here is that it's not me who seems to be "DEFENDING" someone, it seems like it is You who are DEFENDING the 5N dudes. There are a lot of facts that point at them, but you continue to point elsewhere with zero facts.

 

[VeryVeritas]

Here is something I have wondered about. MB says when he got home CR pukes and he puts him to bed. He then calls JR to take LS over there because JR knows her better. So when he has JR on the phone why not ask him to come get her. His roommate has just thrown up and he needs to keep watch on him. So he abandoned his roommate, takes LS to JR's and stays and makes phone calls. Doesn't make sense to me. Am I missing something?

Add that to the list of MB's inconsistencies. So, many that it has to be a fabrication.

 

[VeryVeritas]

you're right, you don't know what LE knows and neither do I

You missed the point. The point was that if LE knew certain things, there would be a criminal case going on. This means that it is possible to estimate what LE does not know. For example, if there was a body and fingerprint/DNA evidence there would be a case by now. We can reasonably estimate that they do not have a body. If LE knows certain things, then certain things happen (not always right away... but this has been YEARS). So it is possible to estimate other things that LE does not know, or a criminal trial would be going on.

 

[sammi89]

BBM, I do remember JR's lawyer mentioning a lie detector test that he'd taken privately and (I believe?) the lawyer said had been given to LE, IDK if thats the one the search team was told about, but it could well be

JW passed a private one too. I'm not sure about CR/MB.

It's DR who passed the LE polygraph though. None of the POIs have done that, which is one of many reasons the Spierers have voiced frustration with them.

http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1712477

Rohn later took an FBI-administered polygraph test that showed “no deception.”

 

[holly18]

JW passed a private one too. I'm not sure about CR/MB.

It's DR who passed the LE polygraph though. None of the POIs have done that, which is one of many reasons the Spierers have voiced frustration with them.

http://www.indianapolismonthly.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1712477

Oh, ok thank you! I think the spierers have also said that DR was the only one they feel has cooperated fully

 

[akh]

Guys don't freak out when a buddy gets sick from drinking. CR would've been more likely to have been teased by MB about not holding his alcohol versus MB holding a ritual over him in concern and looking after him.

Assuming it's true he was put to bed, being furnished a bag or bucket to vomit in would be about the extent of help most guys would give another unless there seemed to be something seriously different than the more than likely multiple times he's seen others get sick.

 

[Ixchel13]

[Puzzledly] Uh... I'm not here to defend anyone. Like most WS'rs here I'm bothered by some facts:
1) A petite young woman named Lauren Spierer vanished
2) She was last seen on camera by eye witnesses in seriously bad shape in the company of CR
3) The last person to CLAIM to see her (alive?) was JR
4) CR lives with MB in the same building as JR. These guys all know each other. CR/MB and JR have all given contradicting versions of events.

Poking holes in theories is not defending anyone. The prevailing theories implicating CR/MB/JR came about by the same fact analysis and deductive method - in that case the theory got more and more solid. Obviously the Spierer's reached the same conclusion thus the Civil Suit which began against all 3.

It seems to me that if LE had any solid link between JR and JW involving LS that night things would be moving differently. Just like you don't have anything to bring to LE, it appears that LE has nothing for the Prosecutor.

I think everyone would agree on the profiling... sure the most likely person to commit foul play is the significant other. But there isn't one single public FACT that implicates JW, not ONE! There is no person that claims to have seen him that night around 5N. There are no "known" calls or texts that point to him. At the same time if he did make incriminating texts and calls that night, it would make no sense that he would stage things later in the day. Note that the Spierer's also aren't suing JW.

The trouble here is that it's not me who seems to be "DEFENDING" someone, it seems like it is You who are DEFENDING the 5N dudes. There are a lot of facts that point at them, but you continue to point elsewhere with zero facts.

How about 5N dudes + one--JW.

 

[Mahouston69]

Facts that raise suspicion towards JW? Packing up and leaving town within days of his girlfriend of three years, disappearing. Not agreeing to take a poly, not looking for LS.

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[VeryVeritas]

My personal theory is
1) yes
2) yes, awake and trying to reach LS probably. After 3years of "saving her", and putting up with her "drug abuse" according to his parents. I don't believe he went to bed after the game and never thought once where she was, what she was doing or who she was with. I don't believe he wasn't told what happened at Smallwood shortly after it happened and what condition she was in. I think he was up waiting to confront her once he knew where she was exactly, either on the phone or in person.
3) Text or call from JR, to JW, that she needs to go back to her apt, but has no key, no phone, no shoes....and maybe "hey...she just walked out...better hurry" (maybe sobriety test story is to make him not look indifferent but was glad she left and no longer his problem)

4) in my theory LS is still alive when she leaves JRs but once her angry, jilted, embarrassed boyfriend of three years finds her, on her way to his place, sees the condition she's in, is aware of what may or may not have taken place between her and CR, he snaps, they fight. She dies.

5) how far away does he live? Are there cameras between JRs and JWs?

Did he call his father to come before he knew she was missing and reported it to police?

Let's say MB really does put black out drunk CR to bed and watched her walk her to JRs? (He tries not to look like a jerk and changes it to walked her there)

JR knows MB saying this puts her at his place last, and has to move that attention away from him, but something must have gone terribly wrong between JW and LS, and he obviously doesn't want anyone to know about drugs, alcohol to minors etc and takes it upon himself to say he saw her then, but watched her walk to the corner, alone. Knowing if he doesn't mention calling JW then JW won't mention JR's party favors. Maybe the threat at the party was a real message, "leave and never mention calling me or I'll take you down with me" Unspoken frat brother agreement but no real trust because he blames JR instead of himself for that night... maybe.

I would be very interested to know if his own apt (which would have her DNA) was searched for any sign of her clothes she wore that night. Whether his phone, facebook, iPod apps were investigated as a POI closest to her with motive? I would search the areas between 5N and JW's place thoroughly.

Just a theory mixed with what we know and what we don't.

Some comments for your theory:

#3 According to JR she did have her SW keycard and fake ID(which is odd considering everything else was left / dropped in various places). From known facts, it's highly unlikely that she could walk.

#5 The route between JR's and JW's has been discussed extensively. On foot it may have been possible to evade cameras (lucky or calculated?)
But then how far would he get with a body on foot? No one sees anything?
How would JR know to change his story to fit MB's story unless they discussed it and made an agreement? The fear of revelations of drugs at JR's no longer holds water because JR has clearly admitted it in the Civil Suit. At the same time, Ixchel has implied that JW being frat Pres was involved with drugs. So that sort of attempted extortion would not make sense.

Later in the day JW confronts CR first (if I am not mistaken). Does that behavior make sense if he is the one that is guilty?

I would agree it would be a huge red flag if he called his dad to come BEFORE even knowing she was missing. Do you have anything to back that up? Just seems to me that if LE knew that, it would be compelling evidence.

 

[Ixchel13]

You missed the point. The point was that if LE knew certain things, there would be a criminal case going on. This means that it is possible to estimate what LE does not know. For example, if there was a body and fingerprint/DNA evidence there would be a case by now. We can reasonably estimate that they do not have a body. If LE knows certain things, then certain things happen (not always right away... but this has been YEARS). So it is possible to estimate other things that LE does not know, or a criminal trial would be going on.

no point missed, just the same response, we can apply logic, speculation,
past experience, etc but we still don't know what LE knows or why exactly they haven't cleared JW.
Just like your theory of gang rape, for instance. You have said many times that hiding her body could have been motivated by that. I, however, think if they hid her body it was to avoid scandal that could wreck their fledgling business. sex vs. money. Neither one of us has any proof of these theories. Although JR was starting a business with DB. So one could postulate that
at least I have a motive. Defend the POIsw? Perish the thought my dear Watson!

 

[AbbeyR]

BBM, I do remember JR's lawyer mentioning a lie detector test that he'd taken privately and (I believe?) the lawyer said had been given to LE, IDK if thats the one the search team was told about, but it could well be

Yes, IIRC, both JR and JW claimed to have "passed" a polygraph, but since it's a private poly arranged by their own lawyers who can choose the questions and results that are passed on to LE, that doesn't mean much. The only person who took an LE polygraph was DR.

ETA: Oops, Sammi already posted this. Catching up!

 

[VeryVeritas]

Facts that raise suspicion towards JW? Packing up and leaving town within days of his girlfriend of three years, disappearing. Not agreeing to take a poly, not looking for LS.

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I agree it stinks, said it myself in a few posts a while back.

This behavior is becoming commonplace for people who come from families with money. Personally it's hard for me to relate to the "not looking for LS" especially after only 2 days. But there are numerous cases these days where parents hire lawyers, social media suddenly evaporates, kid goes home and zips up. The idea that it is JW's parents who are calling these shots is supported by their aggressive public statements.

If you come up with inconsistencies in who he talked to, what was said, etc... which contradict that he was simply "the shocked boyfriend", or that he knew things before he should have known them... that would be useful.

If I recall correctly JW supposedly fell asleep sometime after 12:30, his last contact with LS. If there is anything that proved he was not asleep after that, it would put everything he said into question.

 

[Mahouston69]

Some comments for your theory:

#3 According to JR she did have her SW keycard and fake ID(which is odd considering everything else was left / dropped in various places). From known facts, it's highly unlikely that she could walk.

#5 The route between JR's and JW's has been discussed extensively. On foot it may have been possible to evade cameras (lucky or calculated?)
But then how far would he get with a body on foot? No one sees anything?
How would JR know to change his story to fit MB's story unless they discussed it and made an agreement? The fear of revelations of drugs at JR's no longer holds water because JR has clearly admitted it in the Civil Suit. At the same time, Ixchel has implied that JW being frat Pres was involved with drugs. So that sort of attempted extortion would not make sense.

Later in the day JW confronts CR first (if I am not mistaken). Does that behavior make sense if he is the one that is guilty?

I would agree it would be a huge red flag if he called his dad to come BEFORE even knowing she was missing. Do you have anything to back that up? Just seems to me that if LE knew that, it would be compelling evidence.

#3, are we taking JRs word she had her keycard with her?

#5 I don't think he carried her body. I think he and she argued, fought and whatever happened, happened along the way and she is covered, hidden somewhere between the two residences. Maybe not far from 5N.

MB was forthcoming with his story first, before JR changing it slightly only after JR spoke up without solicitation and said she was at his place last. Why did JR do that instead of letting everyone think she was last with CR and MB?

The drug revelation doesn't matter NOW, because who admitted it? JR. His attempt to not allow JW to hold it over his head. Once he did, ...did we see JW and parents get a little more vocal and defensive? Blackmail was gone. Now who has the upperhand?

JW confronts CR because he dislikes him, messed with his girlfriend, got her drunk and it's all "his fault". He is still angry and is the reason he lost everything or still might at this point by "pushing him to do what he did". Definitely guilty acting in my opinion.

I will go hunting for where I read the amount of time it took his Dad to fly or drive to get there and when he arrived....be would have had to have gotten the call from Jesse in the early morning hours before he "knew" she was missing and went to get the key, and reported her missing.

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